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Chris

Posted 2/23/2021 07:57 (#8852573)
Subject: God's plans?

East central Iowa

When I hear that I have to wonder.

So, if God has plans for each of us then do we have free will?

It seems to me that you can't have both, IF you are part of a plan designed just for you. That would make you the equivalent of a board in a project. You fit a certain place and you go there whether you want to or not. You are cut and shaped to fit a specific job, that's not free will.

Ken

Posted 2/23/2021 08:12 (#8852618 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

central Ia

There is no plan, you are here and God gave you the rules to live by and you will be judged when you die, how long you live is up to luck, timing and how well you pay attention to what your body is telling you, IMHO

Russ In Idaho

Posted 2/23/2021 08:16 (#8852629 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Chris God does have a plan for you. However he gave you free agency to do as you please. It's up to you to decide if you want to live that plan.

mnfarmboy

Posted 2/23/2021 08:21 (#8852643 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

W.C. MN

Can it not be both?

I see it as God's biggest, over-aching plan is to build His kingdom. Meaning add more and more people all the time that believe He's there doing what it is said that He does. Loving and obeying Him. Along the way we have tons of free will. If those free will choices we make do not fit with His, with an open heart, will lead to more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Easier said than done I know, but life's no cake walk. But we still can choose joy.

sil farmer

Posted 2/23/2021 08:48 (#8852697 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Kell, IL...not Chicago!!!

Think of it as God being the gps, but you are the driver. You can follow the directions and reach your destination, or you can just try following your own directions, and get lost out in the sticks.

Edited by sil farmer 2/23/2021 08:49

Hick

Posted 2/23/2021 08:56 (#8852715 - in reply to #8852697)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Sw mn

The holocaust was definitely bad planning.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 10:40 (#8852884 - in reply to #8852715)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

The holocaust made many Jews wiling to go back to Israel...to fulfill their destiny in God's plan.

Hick

Posted 2/23/2021 16:38 (#8853513 - in reply to #8852884)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Sw mn

Wayne A - 2/23/2021 10:40

The holocaust made many Jews wiling to go back to Israel...to fulfill their destiny in God's plan.

So their destiny was a gas chamber. God doesn’t care about the Jews. At least that is what his actions show.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 20:37 (#8854024 - in reply to #8853513)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

Israel's destiny is to be back IN Israel to fulfill their allotted destiny. He can deal with them as a nation properly when they are where they are supposed to be...in Israel. I don't know why you came up with that.

SD1267

Posted 2/23/2021 20:11 (#8853956 - in reply to #8852715)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

video

Attachments
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b702d57c-f1f2-4bc2-a764-889aa5da155a.MP4 (6581KB - 31 downloads)

JR B

Posted 2/23/2021 09:05 (#8852735 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Linneus Mo.

The ? is how does God use mans free will? The below is an excerpt from the 1689 baptist confession.

The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold
temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them
the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a
more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all
future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his
appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

https://www.theriversedgeonline.com/images/pdf/The-1689-Baptist-Conf...

Cliff SEIA

Posted 2/23/2021 09:15 (#8852751 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

I have plans for my kids and they have the choice to follow or not, I don't want them to obey me because I will condemn them but because because they trust me enough that I know what's best for them.

cornmill

Posted 2/23/2021 13:29 (#8853224 - in reply to #8852751)
Subject: RE: frytown

Northern Indiana

Frytown your posts are the closest to my beliefs. I'm guessing because we have been around awhile. I am approaching my seventh decade on this earth and I can say the Lord has blessed me my whole life. It is much easier looking back on my life and knowing the Lord gave me my hearths desire and I lived according to his plan as best I could. He is perfect but I am not. He blessed me in spite of myself. He let me live my life but I asked for his direction, forgiveness and blessing everyday. I chose my profession and business. He knows the future, I don't. He created me but he did not create a robot. Sometimes I fail and fall, But he has never forsaken me even when I totally ignore his plan. I don't claim to have all the answers. In fact I can never study the Bible without coming away with more questions than answers. But, I NEVER question his existence or his word or his sovereignty that is my free will and his plan. It really is pretty simple for me and I hope it becomes simple for everyone else. For sure now more than ever we all need a solid anchor in our life. Bless you all.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 13:44 (#8853268 - in reply to #8853224)
Subject: RE: frytown

Frytown, Iowa

cornmill - 2/23/2021 13:29

Frytown your posts are the closest to my beliefs. I'm guessing because we have been around awhile. I am approaching my seventh decade on this earth

Cornmill I’m only halfway there! However... how life has been treating me this past decade... sometimes I wonder if I’ll make it...

cornmill

Posted 2/23/2021 14:56 (#8853374 - in reply to #8853268)
Subject: RE: frytown

Northern Indiana

Put your faith out there and expect peaks and valleys, that's how you will know you are on the right road.

1DH

Posted 2/23/2021 19:34 (#8853866 - in reply to #8853224)
Subject: RE: frytown

swia

++++

fairtomidland

Posted 2/24/2021 17:46 (#8855770 - in reply to #8853224)
Subject: RE: frytown

AMEN

Iowajim

Posted 2/23/2021 09:29 (#8852775 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

NW Iowa

God gives each of us special tools to use to help humanity. Some are gifted doctors, others are gifted farmers who feed the world. Most of us have seen videos of the way people in some third world countries live with reckless abandon. That is partly because they believe their final day is on the calendar and they won't die until that day. We all have our special beliefs in how Christianity works because Christianity is real. If it is not real it would have died out and slipped through the cracks 100 generations ago.

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 09:40 (#8852788 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

Philosophy 101, Argument for the Existence of God.

Usually cast as the conflict between omniscience and free will. If an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god is in charge, why does evil exist?

Put more directly, if God is omniscient, He must know the future -- as Biblical passages allege. But, if He knows the future, how can we have free will to independent action, since we could take choices that would alter the future? More to the point, if He has a Plan and our future is set, how can He punish unrepentant sinners for following a path they could not avoid?

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:11 (#8852828 - in reply to #8852788)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 09:40

Philosophy 101, Argument for the Existence of God.

Usually cast as the conflict between omniscience and free will. If an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god is in charge, why does evil exist?

All very simple and narrow minded thoughts

I could expand more but I have to go chore. My quickest explanation is when I was learning about markets. We each have the free will to buy or sell. And each action causes a reaction. Also there are distinct patterns in the market. The market is not random with no correlation it is clearly set in a path. We all have freedom of choice to make the decisions we make however we lack the wisdom and understanding to see the actions leading up to our reaction. We are heavily heavily influenced by action and reaction. It’s a complex equation but we all fall into that pattern which is why the masses do what they do.

God is in control and he wins in the end but he also wins every day here on earth too. We also over estimate the importance of day to day decisions. If we are so focused on why there is evil or why I didn’t get my own way we loose sight of what’s really important. What is really the equalizer with everyone in the world. I’ll give you a hint. It’s not money. It’s not comfort, it’s not good food, it’s not good sex, it’s not material pleasure, it’s not power, it’s not long life it’s not health. There is something that everyone can experience and everyone has the ability to live as good of a life that’s out there no matter the situation. When we focus on everything else we wonder how can this be Gods plan.

But when you find out what the best riches are in life and Gods plan is perfect in that. You start to realize he is in control and we do have free will. They are one in the same if your not distracted by all the nonsense.

A short answer another question asked here. Evil exists because people as a whole are selfish and prideful and want what we want. And God allows that to happen because it exposes our hearts.

If you currently think of God as anything less than perfect and the best thing for your life then you don’t know who God is. Yes there are times of doubt... but if day to day you have those thoughts you do not know who God is because you have not pursued him.

That is the short version typed up on iPhone

Good luck in everyone’s quest for this answer. I have mulled this over for the past decade and feel I have a good grasp on it.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:20 (#8852843 - in reply to #8852828)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

This brings to another point. Since we are heavily influenced by action and reaction from a complex equation that is being programmed since we were a child...

What keeps us from being trapped in a total control of physical laws?

Where is the beginning of what could be described as a spiritual intervention. and this really dives into where to miracles really come from

There are two things I can think of that are clearly not physical and clearly very real.

The only thing that is not influenced by physical is the thoughts that enter our heads. These thoughts (thoughts that are not necessary influenced by actions or reactions) are where I would describe the spiritual influences the physical in a large day to day way. It could be the remembrance of a job you were clearly going to forget, or an idea you came up with that influenced your day. It could be the amount of time I’m spending on this post that changes my day... that changes the equation of our actions and reactions that causes someone to be in a different place than before.

Miracles can be set up 100s of actions and reactions before because of the spiritual intervention of a thought. As you look out into space DKO and how wildly large it is... do not underestimate who Gos is and trap him into a simple equation of events

There is much more gotta go

And may Gods will be done. <—- that’s another topic...

Edit: I never touched on the second thing that is non physical but very real maybe later.... it’s the answer to my first posts question... relationships

Edited by frytownfarmer 2/23/2021 10:22

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 10:22 (#8852848 - in reply to #8852828)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

"I have mulled this over for the past decade and feel I have a good grasp on it."

Okay, so maybe you won't mind addressing the central problem. If God knows all, how can eternal punishment be justified for people who had no free will?

Alternately, if free will exists and we can be held accountable for our actions, then God must not know what we will do and the future cannot be known.

Can't have it both ways. This has been argued for centuries.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:24 (#8852850 - in reply to #8852848)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

A person chooses to be in hell. That’s clear in the Bible. And clear here on earth. A person does not want to be out of hell they just do not want to pay for their actions.

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 10:29 (#8852859 - in reply to #8852850)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

Another swing and miss.

Boiling it down further: Do we have the capacity to act in way that is not part of a pre-ordained future, known to God?

100th_meridian

Posted 2/23/2021 10:34 (#8852869 - in reply to #8852859)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

South Central NE

You must have all the answers. The arrogance telling someone his personal beliefs are WRONG. Not that you don't agree but that he is wrong.

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 10:36 (#8852873 - in reply to #8852869)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

This is a very old question. Don't shoot the messenger.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:37 (#8852879 - in reply to #8852859)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

Let me ask you the clear question being asked here...

Can you obtain enough information about God to control him.

If those are the underlying reasons for your questions he will leave you in the dark in your simple minded quest for selfishness and pride

That is the entire reason for science. To study to learn to control something to greater benefit our lives.

Quit trying to study God in an attempt to “trap” or control him. You will not get anywhere

Edited by frytownfarmer 2/23/2021 10:38

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 10:43 (#8852887 - in reply to #8852879)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

So, no answer.

That's probably not a problem for you and you can count many theologians among your peers.

But this is the sort of problem that has kept philosophers up at night for many generations. It is still taught at the university level to help people gain insight into how we all form our opinions.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:50 (#8852897 - in reply to #8852887)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

One more before I go. If someone tries to have a relationship with me here on earth and it’s started out with them trying to manipulate me and control me how far do you think your going to get?

Once again you are addressing God as if he is a scientific study instead of a being that has perfect relationships.

If you can’t get past that you will get no further and keep banging your head on ridiculously narrow minded and shallow thoughts about the big picture.

Good luck. Humble yourself, ask God for wisdom and seek who he really is. He’s not hiding from you.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 20:47 (#8854056 - in reply to #8852897)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

+ 1 Frytown.

God is infinite...seeing all the future and can make perfect decisions. He already knows our decision whether we will accept His grace or reject it. He has a perfect plan for a perfect Kingdom for a perfectly redeemed people.

Do we want to get aboard or sin away our day of grace?...that is the question we all are forced to decide.

barren

Posted 2/23/2021 10:40 (#8852885 - in reply to #8852859)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Glasgow, Ky

If you will notice he referred to you as being narrow minded in one of his replies above. Guess he considers himself open minded?

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:51 (#8852900 - in reply to #8852885)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

Definitely open minded to Gods plan

barren

Posted 2/23/2021 15:22 (#8853406 - in reply to #8852900)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Glasgow, Ky

Or your interpretation of God's plan. :-)

Maybe it's just me but the longer I studied the Bible the more questions I have had. Having studied the beliefs of different denominations I concluded there is a lot of interpreting going on, thus leading to much confusion and disagreement. For instance baptism, some believe infant baptism is sufficient, some believe immersion is necessary, some go with sprinkling, some think after making a profession of faith you are not saved until you are baptised. The Bible states God is not the author of confusion but man sure has done a good job of it.

w1891

Posted 2/23/2021 15:30 (#8853418 - in reply to #8853406)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

S Illinois

Don't forget the other 90% of the world population whose "interpretation" isn't in the same ballpark as evangelical Christianity. When one accepts the truth of circular references and logic defying then religion becomes easy. I always ask, if all religion, churches, temples, writings were magically gone would religion as we know it exist within a generation or two or would the flying spaghetti monster religion win out. Old stories are always embellished.

Golden83

Posted 2/23/2021 20:18 (#8853974 - in reply to #8853406)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

NE Kent County, MI

barren - 2/23/2021 16:22

The Bible states God is not the author of confusion but man sure has done a good job of it.

This is correct, if we look to man and denominations we take our eyes off Jesus. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. Any other example will fall short at one time or another.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 20:56 (#8854080 - in reply to #8853406)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

God's Word tells us how to be baptized... Act 2:38...".Repent and be baptized [buried] everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, AND you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Now isn't that plain? The first big denomination started changing some of God's Word. Too many are baptized into a church instead of into Christ and receive a church spirit rather than Christ's Spirit.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 10:34 (#8852868 - in reply to #8852850)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

Read luke 16 but I will highlight verse 24

So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

He calls for relief of his pain. He never asked to get out of there. A person chooses to go to hell here on earth and a person chooses to go to hell even in hell.

I think what your really asking is what is the definition of hell?

I’ll tell you what the definition of heaven is

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

That’s a relationship. A perfect relationship with God through Christ’s payment of sins. We can also have a mirrored relationship here on earth with others full of Grace, forgiveness, mercy, patience, selflessness, (basically the fruits of the Holy Spirit) and you see with these actions relationships have the ability to last forever here on earth as well as pass into the next...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin is basically any action that if it is left unaddressed... will destroy a relationship. Both with God and man.

If you don’t think that relationships are at the HEART of the Bible and who God is you are missing the point of it all. It’s all about a relationship and who you have it with. Even God before any of this existed was in perfect relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. All it was to our knowledge was a perfect relationship with 3 beings and this whole story unfolding in this world is attempting to relay that perfect relationship with us

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 10:35 (#8852870 - in reply to #8852868)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

So...yes, or no?

barren

Posted 2/23/2021 10:51 (#8852899 - in reply to #8852868)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Glasgow, Ky

Question fry, if God hates sin why did he create Adam and Eve knowing they were going to sin?

Second question, do you consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God? If per chance you do, is that just one translation in particular?

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 11:16 (#8852941 - in reply to #8852899)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

God wanted fellowship and someone to share His great universe with.

Of course God knew Adam and Eve would sin. It was not a total loss as now He would be able to EXPRESS His attributes of forgiveness, mercy, grace, and love more completely. The Marines used to have a slogan...:"We want a few good men." I believe that is somewhat like that with God...and He will have them. They will be blood washed by His own precious blood.

The Bible is God's thoughts expressed in print. It has passed through many languages and translations. Some translations may be more perfect than others, but if you have a hunger, you can be fed abundantly.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 12:59 (#8853145 - in reply to #8852899)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

barren - 2/23/2021 10:51

Question fry, if God hates sin why did he create Adam and Eve knowing they were going to sin?

Second question, do you consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God? If per chance you do, is that just one translation in particular?

Instead of acting like God created evil, try to understand there are some basic facts to a relationship. Just because God is perfect doesn’t mean the scenario of death wasn’t “in play” it just means it was not acted upon yet to our knowledge because of Gods perfect relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit. When God created the physical realm that option came into play. I think what is being asked is “if God knew that in this creation there was the possibility and probability for hurt, pain, death.., why did he bring someone he loves (humans) into this scenario?

That same question can be asked for each of us. When we look around at this world it’s naive to think anyone can make it through this world without a “world” of hurts from finances to relationships, health and ultimately our own death and yet so many of us willingly to bring the very people we love the MOST into this very scenario. Why?

I guess you could say the juice is worth the squeeze. The ability to have a good mature relationship with something you “created” is worth all the trials

The second question I will revert back to my tag line in that language is a horrible tool to communicate the thoughts of the mind. The correct translation of the Bible is one inspired by Gods ability to telecommunicate with us... with or without the Bible. In fact most of the things I have learned about God came about through what I would call “telepathy”. There is a catch. It HAS to line up with the Bible, and you HAVE to be reading the Bible. It’s amazing when your living your life working through a scenario and it comes to you.... something new about Gods character. You know it’s true but you couldn’t quote a verse on it... then within the next week you have a devotion or the pastor gives a sermon that hammers that thought in with scripture. Scripture I didn’t know existed. Since “roughly” 2010 this has been my life.

I’ll leave it that the correct translation matters more with your heart than the words! The correct translation is one that accurately depicts who God is and who we are. There are 15 ways to express a thought and 15 ways to miss the interpretation of that thought. One thing we have going for us is in Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

BFarm

Posted 2/23/2021 16:12 (#8853469 - in reply to #8852899)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

WCIL

Why do parents have children, knowing they are going to sin, get into trouble, get sick, make messes and break expensive things? Why do people get married knowing eventually one spouse is probably going to die first leaving the other alone? Why build a house knowing it will only last a generation or two? These things are guaranteed. Your question why God created us knowing we will sin is flawed. He gives us mercy and grace if we seek it, no different than a parent would if the child breaks a window when told to not to throw rocks. We discipline them and forgive, but still love them and continue to teach them. If they do not obey as adults, eventually they can end up in jail and we as parents let them pay for their actions. They had their chance. No different with the Lord. I can quote scriptures pertaining to God's good pleasure as to why/how things happen but if you believe it is in error there is no use. We cannot understand everything because His ways are not our ways. That's not hard for me to fathom because there are people who can do brain surgery or build space ships that make me look like a 6 year old in brain power. I have no doubt God's ways are infinitely past my thoughts. And many things seem out of whack to me too, but I trust the big picture will go according to His long term plans. Seek Him, study His word and pray for eyes to be opened humbly and you too can have a relationship with the Lord.

REH

Posted 2/23/2021 15:20 (#8853401 - in reply to #8852868)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

SE Lancaster co PA

Your right FRY it's relationship that GOD wants.

DaveVB

Posted 2/23/2021 10:36 (#8852874 - in reply to #8852848)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Grandview Mo.

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13.
Argued for centuries, I believe, because humans refuse to believe this verse and think about the rest way too hard. If love for our fellow man was our over-arching goal as we go down this road of life, things would be totally different. However, because we are born with a sinful nature along with free will, we often choose love for ourselves over others which can result in things like the holocaust.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 10:56 (#8852909 - in reply to #8852848)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

God IS infinite and IS sovereign and all knowing, not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. However, He has given free will and knows many will not harken to Him. God is just and knows your very thoughts...they speak louder than your words. He knows the future and IS the future.

I don't believe in eternal hell. It does not even make sense. Only God is eternal. If we become a part of God and His Kingdom, we are eternal also. Hell was created for the devil and his angels. It is the jail until their trial...the Great Judgment. The wicked do not have eternal life, so how could they exist eternally...even in hell? They are consumed in the Lake of Fire...20 miles below this crust is a belching lake of fire...thousands of miles deep.

Edited by Wayne A 2/23/2021 11:18

6030Deere

Posted 2/24/2021 07:02 (#8854590 - in reply to #8852909)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

N MO

Just as heaven is eternal, so is hell. We are told we die twice and will be tormented in the lake of fire.

Wayne A

Posted 2/24/2021 10:51 (#8855097 - in reply to #8854590)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

I would say that heaven is a created place...so it can change as can hell...according to God's purposes.

At one point, God was not God. The word god means an object of worship. At one point, there were none to worship Him...He was the great eternal Spirit alone with his thoughts. When He created angels, He became God...object of worship. God is not His name. It is a title word...kind of like king.

The Bible says that He is creating news heavens and a new earth. He will dwell with man...on the earth. These things are not static. Neither is hell. When there is no longer a place for evil and hell, they will be gone.

The wicked die twice and come to destruction...gone.

Edited by Wayne A 2/24/2021 10:53

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/24/2021 13:38 (#8855392 - in reply to #8855097)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

Wayne good info. I’d add that God was never alone as it’s not his character. He has always been in perfect relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit which... the trinity is another discussion. Just want to point out that absence of relationships is the great abyss.

monse

Posted 2/23/2021 12:00 (#8853021 - in reply to #8852848)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

NE ND

God has a plan for us. He has since the beginning of time. It is for us to be in fellowship with Him. When Eve chose to be heR own god, sin entered the world like a disease. God is holy and can not allow sin to enter heaven. I compare it to allowing someone who just came home from a long day of work in the shop or field. They can not walk right into an operating room at the hospital because it would contaminate the room. God could have wiped out the world and started over but he loved us some much He provided a way that we could be washed clean to enter heaven. That was by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. We must ask Jesus to save us. It is not enough to just acknowledge it. That would be like saying you need a heart transplant, you acknowledge that yes, I do need a transplant but then never going through with the operation.

We do have free will. We can chose to surrender to Jesus and walk in fellowship with him or be our own god. If we chose to be our own god and follow our own will/plan, then we will have to live with the consequences of our sinful choices.
On our own, even when we have what we think are the best intentions, they are deep down selfish and in some way we are ultimately doing it for a selfish reason. Even if we say we are doing something because we love the perrson it is still usually because we want the glory of recognition or don't want to be embarrassed by our loved ones poor choices, not because we have unselfish love. Who wants to unselfishly love anyone? There is nothing in it for us! Yet God loves us unselfishly. He does not need our love. Still He loves us no matter how bad we screw things up. He could have started things new after the first sin but He wanted us. When we accept His love then we are able to extend that unselfish love to others.

So getting to the very bottom of your comments we find that we have free will to chose to be our own god or follow The God. If we chose to be our own god then we get the reward at the end of our life to say "look at what I accomplished on my own, I did it my way". This is pride of life. It comes at the cost of hurting others but you get to glorify yourself. The problem is nobody else cares what you accomplished because one, you have hurt those people that you want to care about your accomplishments(perhaps unintentionally in your mind, but you still have), two, those same people are trying to be their own gods of their lives because that is how we have been taught to live and how we teach our kids to live. You will be forgotten within a generation, 2 if you are lucky.

If we chose to follow God then we get to experience a relationship with God. Fellowship in our heart with God brings a peace that we all long for. You get to enjoy freedom from measuring up to others because you understand that we are all equal under God. You will feel the love that you have always craved that no spouse, parent, or child can give you. You live with the optimism and hope that every day lived is one closer to being united with God. Without God we view life as one less day we have left. My email is good.

Ox76

Posted 2/24/2021 08:42 (#8854813 - in reply to #8853021)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

west central MO

monse - 2/23/2021 13:00

God has a plan for us. He has since the beginning of time. It is for us to be in fellowship with Him. When Eve chose to be heR own god, sin entered the world like a disease. God is holy and can not allow sin to enter heaven. I compare it to allowing someone who just came home from a long day of work in the shop or field. They can not walk right into an operating room at the hospital because it would contaminate the room. God could have wiped out the world and started over but he loved us some much He provided a way that we could be washed clean to enter heaven. That was by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. We must ask Jesus to save us. It is not enough to just acknowledge it. That would be like saying you need a heart transplant, you acknowledge that yes, I do need a transplant but then never going through with the operation.

We do have free will. We can chose to surrender to Jesus and walk in fellowship with him or be our own god. If we chose to be our own god and follow our own will/plan, then we will have to live with the consequences of our sinful choices.
On our own, even when we have what we think are the best intentions, they are deep down selfish and in some way we are ultimately doing it for a selfish reason. Even if we say we are doing something because we love the perrson it is still usually because we want the glory of recognition or don't want to be embarrassed by our loved ones poor choices, not because we have unselfish love. Who wants to unselfishly love anyone? There is nothing in it for us! Yet God loves us unselfishly. He does not need our love. Still He loves us no matter how bad we screw things up. He could have started things new after the first sin but He wanted us. When we accept His love then we are able to extend that unselfish love to others.

So getting to the very bottom of your comments we find that we have free will to chose to be our own god or follow The God. If we chose to be our own god then we get the reward at the end of our life to say "look at what I accomplished on my own, I did it my way". This is pride of life. It comes at the cost of hurting others but you get to glorify yourself. The problem is nobody else cares what you accomplished because one, you have hurt those people that you want to care about your accomplishments(perhaps unintentionally in your mind, but you still have), two, those same people are trying to be their own gods of their lives because that is how we have been taught to live and how we teach our kids to live. You will be forgotten within a generation, 2 if you are lucky.

If we chose to follow God then we get to experience a relationship with God. Fellowship in our heart with God brings a peace that we all long for. You get to enjoy freedom from measuring up to others because you understand that we are all equal under God. You will feel the love that you have always craved that no spouse, parent, or child can give you. You live with the optimism and hope that every day lived is one closer to being united with God. Without God we view life as one less day we have left. My email is good.

monse! - awesome post! (shaking hands with a huge smile)

Ox76

Posted 2/24/2021 07:54 (#8854699 - in reply to #8852848)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

west central MO

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 11:22

"I have mulled this over for the past decade and feel I have a good grasp on it."

Okay, so maybe you won't mind addressing the central problem. If God knows all, how can eternal punishment be justified for people who had no free will?

Alternately, if free will exists and we can be held accountable for our actions, then God must not know what we will do and the future cannot be known.

Can't have it both ways. This has been argued for centuries.

I look at it as we have free will while here on earth, but God already knows what we're going to choose and doesn't interfere. It must be maddening to want to save the souls of everyone on earth, yet have to watch billions make the wrong decisions to put their souls into jeopardy and then not interfere in any of it.

I also believe that God will try to help guide you by allowing thoughts into your head. It's His way of a gentle nudge in the right direction. It is up to you if you listen to that thought and act on it or not.

DaveVB

Posted 2/23/2021 10:29 (#8852860 - in reply to #8852828)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Grandview Mo.

Good answer.

oke

Posted 2/23/2021 10:19 (#8852840 - in reply to #8852788)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

If we really and truly could understand everything about God and His plans for us and the world he wouldn't be a very big God. He is God and we are not. He gives us directions to follow, laws, precepts and principles, and that is all we can handle. His Son or God or His Word is our guide and that is who, what and why we need to follow. Our minds are so tiny in comparison to God that we have no chance of understanding. We are here to give Him glory honor and praise and that's it.

IHC 1470

Posted 2/23/2021 10:48 (#8852894 - in reply to #8852788)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Idaho

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 07:40

Philosophy 101, Argument for the Existence of God.

Usually cast as the conflict between omniscience and free will. If an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god is in charge, why does evil exist?

Why does evil exist? Because man chose to exercise free will, he disobeyed God . God allows us free will, that does not mean He does not know what our choice will be ahead of time, that allows Him to make slight direction changes and still accomplish His plans. We have the choice to alter our future any time we change our path and bring it into alignment with the Saviors plans.

For example thou shall not steal. We have the choice, do we steal or not. It is our choice and ours alone to make and based on that choice we are also heading down a path that helps determine our destiny.

The interesting thing is none of us can make it down the correct path on our own. We need a savior and that savior is Jesus.

dko I do not know you personally, however I am fairly certain I can say that sometime in your life time you have stolen something, be it as simple as a #2 pencil. Have you ever once looked at a woman with lust? Have you ever wished you had the 80 that is just across the road from your house? According to Gods laws that makes you a thief, an adulator, and a coveter. These sins are enough to separate you from the life He has chosen for you which is to spend eternity with Him. It was your chose not His for that separation.

Another example the stop sign on the corner of 1st and Main, anywhere in the world. You can chose to obey it or you can chose to run it. Your chose and yours alone. However you do not have the choice of what the consequences of you actions bring. One of the consequences of running that sign may be death. Guess what, God says the wages of sin is death.

Philosophy 101 really is not that hard to understand and we live it every day. It is our choice.

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 11:04 (#8852922 - in reply to #8852894)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

You are saying that we humans have free will and are, therefore, free to screw up so badly that it warrants eternal punishment. The future is not only unknown, but is unknowable, because we can at any time change the future through our actions.

I think most people will agree with this. We certainly feel like we are free do good or bad, at our choosing. But the flip side to this is that no one -- not even a God -- can say what the future holds. Whammo, back into conflict with an all-knowing being at the helm.

As I say above, this is an ancient theological dilemma. There can only be a Plan if the future is pre-ordained. But if we are mere actors reading our lines, punishment for our bad deeds seems misplaced.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 11:17 (#8852945 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 11:04

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Nothing you just wrote is true and is a deception to who God is and who we are.

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 11:24 (#8852950 - in reply to #8852945)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

Okay, I'll put you in the "No Free Will" column.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 11:32 (#8852968 - in reply to #8852950)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 11:24

Okay, I'll put you in the "No Free Will" column.

There you go trying to study and control

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dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 11:38 (#8852985 - in reply to #8852968)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

Not sure where this "control" thing keeps coming from.

This is a classic logic problem. It is intended to illuminate how we approach a question and try to solve it. I don't have a dog in this fight. I am simply presenting the central theological dilemma behind the OP's topic question.

harristonloam

Posted 2/23/2021 23:25 (#8854368 - in reply to #8852985)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Alberta Canada

A chess game has been estimated to have 69,352,859,712,417 possible outcomes.
This is for an 8x8 square.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number

Is it possible that the reason that you don't understand everything about God is because it is too complex for you to be able to understand?

Edited by harristonloam 2/23/2021 23:33

mnfarmboy

Posted 2/23/2021 11:46 (#8853000 - in reply to #8852950)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

W.C. MN

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 11:24

Okay, I'll put you in the "No Free Will" column.

Which column are you in? Or do we need two more-
Both & None of the Above. ?

Like you mentioned, we likely won't finalize this here and now! :)

dko_scOH

Posted 2/23/2021 16:48 (#8853525 - in reply to #8853000)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

39.48, -82.98

Naturalist.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 11:31 (#8852967 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

Time is a construct made by God. My finite mind cannot wrap my mind around eternal...no beginning and no ending,,,but that does not change one fact about eternal.

If you know a bit about the dimensions of this universe...the vast size and extreme perfection of the tiniest details, then you may get just a peephole glimpse of God....of His power, His scientific mind, His ability.

A rational mind would have to know that this universe did not pop into existence by itself and for no reason.

The mighty miracles by Jesus and others and even today by the ministry in the power of Elijah with 'the Spoken Word' creation have shown God's supreme power and control.

IHC 1470

Posted 2/23/2021 11:38 (#8852984 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Idaho

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 09:04

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Maybe I have misunderstood scripture, have always had the impression that God knew from the beginning that His creation was going to screw up. He had a plan for that which to this day He is carrying out.

Think of it this way; He gave us 10 laws to life by. Yet not one of us can follow those laws and each of us have broken them many times. The examples I gave above I listed because I personally have done everyone of them. The amazing thing that I still can not wrapped my head around is even as sinners is the love He has for us. He LOVES us, that is you dko and me so much that He was willing to send His son Jesus to die in our place to pay the price of that sin. That #2 pencil.

Would you be willing to send your child to die for that #2 pencil I stole?

Because according to scripture the wages of sin is death, we deserve to spend eternity apart from Him and the love that He has for us that is the punishment.

Our choice, we put our trust in the Savior that laid down His life for us or we go it on our own. My bank account is not big enough to pay for all my sins, so for me I have chosen to follow the one that knows the path to eternal life.

tmrand

Posted 2/24/2021 06:30 (#8854528 - in reply to #8852984)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Southeast Colorado

I don't want to get into the debate much here.............because I'm out of my league.

I will state though (and I actually started a thread about 10 years ago on this forum on Easter) that it would be a lot easier to send my son to die for our sins, if I knew he'd come back to life 3 days later. Doesn't seem quite as bad as some of the folks I know who have lost kids.

Again, I consider myself Christian..............but have always had lots of questions.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/24/2021 06:46 (#8854560 - in reply to #8854528)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

Todd it wasn’t the pain on the cross or the last breath of life that Jesus sweat blood over. It was knowing what rejection of God felt like and the agony of hell. Jesus didn’t fear the things we fear. He didn’t go on a vacation down there and he sure didn’t just fall asleep either. We have a glimpse of what the afterlife might be like but we sure don’t sweat drops of blood over it. I’d say it’s safe to say we just don’t really know what it’s like to be rejected by God and have all pleasure and relationships stripped from our existence

tmrand

Posted 2/24/2021 07:07 (#8854602 - in reply to #8854560)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Southeast Colorado

I like your relationships theme. Gives me more to mull over.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/24/2021 08:16 (#8854753 - in reply to #8854602)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

Relationships are the great equalizer. No matter if you live in a 3rd world country with poverty and corruption or Mayberry, if you have all the money in the world or fame, long life, good health, good looks, trophy wife... if you have continually bad relationships due to your actions (and others) then your life will be miserable. And we can honestly say most all of these people choose to put their lives in that dumpster. Gods plan is for us to have perfect relationship although because of our own sin and others sin, at best we can have a relationship where we attempt to be selfless, merciful, patient, forgiving, and loving... meaning even in the midst of sin (any action that if left unaddressed will kill off a relationship between God and/or man) we can still live a great life. The best riches in this world is good relationships with people you love and care about.

We all do it naturally. People bump into someone at the mall and say excuse me, when you meet someone you try to be the kindest you can be... and often withhold things you think might be controversial or mean. All relationships start out this way... selfless and loving. And a LOT of relationships end with selfish prideful unforgiving hurtful and most importantly unrepentant actions. That’s the best representation we have of heaven and hell here on earth. Still Jesus didn’t have perfect relationships here on earth.... not because of his actions but because of others. He didn’t make many friends with the religious leaders... but it wasn’t because he did any thing wrong it’s because they rejected the truth of how to have a good relationship. The same applies to us. Just because a person attempts to go forward with their life on a path God designed for good relationships doesn’t mean they will have a good relationship with everyone. Many people still choose what they want over what’s good for a relationship and it still destroys the relationship

JDSWMO

Posted 2/23/2021 14:32 (#8853334 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 11:04

>You are saying that we humans have free will and are, therefore, free to screw up so badly that it warrants eternal punishment. The future is not only unknown, but is unknowable, because we can at any time change the future through our actions.

I think most people will agree with this.

I don't agree with that.

I can give my daughter a choice to make and knowing her I know what she will choose, and the end result of that choice.

God knows us better than we know ourselves don't you think he has a little better grasp on what is going on than we do?

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 21:04 (#8854108 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

DKO says, "But the flip side to this is that no one -- not even a God -- can say what the future holds. "

That is not true. God is all knowing...every detail. Otherwise, He would be bouncing around trying this and then that.

Kelly

Posted 2/23/2021 22:03 (#8854249 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

NC KS

Yes, there is free will, everybody has a choice and everyone will be given opportunities to make that choice. May not recognize it at the time.

God does know the end of the story before it happens. He knows the choices you will make before you make them. Doesn't mean He made you make them. If you want to waste time and space figuring it out any further, go ahead. End results will be the same.

boa628

Posted 2/24/2021 08:00 (#8854717 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

SWOH

I’m probably not a very good Christian, David. But here is what I believe. We are all sinners. We all have the free will to sin or not sin at any given time. Jesus was sent to die on the cross so that I have the opportunity to repent. It’s up to me whether I do that or not. It’s up to me to make a correction in my life. I don’t believe God micro manages my life. I do believe God has set a time that my body will die and that time was set when I was conceived. I don’t question why I’m here, I don’t question God’s perfect timing. I pray for guidance and wisdom. I pray that His will is done, which it will be whether I pray for that or not I believe. I’m not a preacher. I don’t seek out non Christians and try to “convert them”. But I don’t shy away from telling people what I believe. I’ve never met you that I know of, David, but I respect you. I somewhat envy your scientific knowledge (and I know as a Christian I shouldn’t) and you seem like a pretty reasonable guy. I’m not as smart as you and I know it. I won’t push what I believe on you, but I would hope you respect what I believe. All I have is faith, I don’t even know the Bible good enough to quote scripture or argue if I wanted to. God and free will probably will be debated until there are no more believers, for all I know Adam and Eve debated it. I believe there is free will and God doesn’t micro manage my life. His plan for me might’ve been to be in the right spot at the right time for 10 minutes 15 years ago and that was it. I’m not ashamed for what I believe and I’m ok with being ridiculed for that. And I also respect what you believe or don’t believe. My goal is to help who I can while I’m here and not be a pain in the ass. But I know I’m a sinner and I believe God gave me the free will to repent.

I view religious people the same way I view farmers. Everybody is doing it the right way and nobody is doing it exactly the same. I can’t tell you that you’re wrong, all I can tell you is what I believe.

Edited by boa628 2/24/2021 08:02

Ox76

Posted 2/24/2021 08:48 (#8854837 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

west central MO

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 12:04

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

DKO - you need to try to open your mind a little more. We do indeed have free will here on earth. God knows EVERYTHING, including the future and what is in store for us. He already knows if you're going to burn or live life eternal in heaven. What he DOESN'T do is interfere and MAKE us do anything.

Think of it this way: You programmed a computer game that plays itself. You know which character in this game will ultimately win. You sit back and watch it unfold, already knowing what's going to happen. You still love the game and its characters because you created them, after all!

Think of the misery God must go through knowing all that he knows, watching those he loves condemn their immortal souls.

Ox76

Posted 2/24/2021 08:49 (#8854841 - in reply to #8852922)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

west central MO

double post

Edited by Ox76 2/24/2021 08:50

vickruse

Posted 2/23/2021 11:05 (#8852923 - in reply to #8852894)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

SE Iowa

God knows all. Before it happens. We may question Him. That is a lack of faith. I'm guilty. Most every day. He is perfect. I/We are not. The bible is God's word, said over and over again, first in the Old Testament and repeated in the New. If the apostles needed help understanding after walking with Him, imagine the faith we need 2000 years later.

havin’funfarming

Posted 2/23/2021 11:34 (#8852974 - in reply to #8852788)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Perhaps it’s because we think in terms of time. A being that exists outside of what we consider time is not constrained by the passage of time.

I’ll give an analogy in computer terms. We have recently began to program artificial intelligence into computer programs. Meaning the program will learn. The programmer has an end goal in mind. He will write the basic rules and guidelines he wants the computer to follow and write in certain biases. At some point he will feel it is up to the computer to make the rest of the decisions and he will hit “enter” and run the program.

At this point the computer takes over and learns and makes decisions of its own. The programmer hopes the end result will be what he wanted, his plan, but at that point it is up to the computer to make the right choices that get to that result.

Even though both the programmer and the computer exist in time it kind of approximates the time issue also. The computer would make an enormous number of decisions in a short time. At the end of the test the programmer would know the results and could check to see if the program “grew” like he wanted it to. He could even go back and review the decisions the computer made to get to the result it did. The computer would have been given what it needed to follow the programmers plan but the choices were only guided, not forced.

The programmer could also run the same program on multiple computers and he would get different results because the programs would learn and would not all make the same decisions.

Ultimately, the programmer could then decide to keep the programs that grew the way he wanted them to and discard the rest.

AmosB

Posted 2/23/2021 13:00 (#8853146 - in reply to #8852788)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Middle of the middle west

dko_scOH - 2/23/2021 09:40

Philosophy 101, Argument for the Existence of God.

Usually cast as the conflict between omniscience and free will. If an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god is in charge, why does evil exist?

In order to start to have a discussion, we should must first determine if time is linear.

jonas grumby

Posted 2/23/2021 11:23 (#8852949 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Northern Illinois

I find it odd that some believe they have a through understanding of God's plan.

johnny skeptical

Posted 2/23/2021 11:35 (#8852977 - in reply to #8852949)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

n.c.iowa

I find that odd as well.

Wayne A

Posted 2/23/2021 11:41 (#8852988 - in reply to #8852949)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Central In

Jonas, I don't think that anyone here would claim to have a 'through' understanding of God's plan, but when a person has sat under preaching, reading God's thoughts expressed on paper, prayed to and with Him for years, I think that it is reasonable to believe they have at least a basic understanding...and know enough to come in out of the rain and be let their souls be saved...from hell fire.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 11:42 (#8852992 - in reply to #8852949)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

jonas grumby - 2/23/2021 11:23

I find it odd that some believe they have a through understanding of God's plan.

I find it odd you came to that conclusion like I might know all happenings in the world. I do have a relationship with God and a good one at that. So I might know what his plan is in general. It’s for each of us to have a good relationship with God and man through Gods plan for relationships.

How can you claim to know God and not know these things?

vickruse

Posted 2/23/2021 12:01 (#8853024 - in reply to #8852992)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

SE Iowa

Having a relationship with God and knowing God are two different things. We know of God but we don't know God. Prayers are answered but most are not answered the way we want them to be. God answers them the way He wants them to be and if we are not persistent with the asking they go unanswered. Too many times we give up or we ask wrong or ask for the wrong reasons. Seems so many times it is always about me in prayer. God is all knowing, we are not. He knows exactly the day, hour, minute and second of coming events. We have free will to do as we please. But He knows ahead of time our actions before we do. The bible says this over and over again. Most times we don't want to hear it.

frytownfarmer

Posted 2/23/2021 13:10 (#8853184 - in reply to #8853024)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Frytown, Iowa

We are talking different things. Once again I know who God is and have a relationship with him but I don’t know know all the details and workings he has in this world. I do know that he wants a good relationship with us and for us to have a good relationship with each other through his plan for relationships.

I’m not claiming to know the mind of God. I have a relationship with my wife and I know who she is. I know she wants what’s best for our family and for us to have good relationships but I do not know what she is going to do or say next.

What you typed is a perfect example of submitting to Gods will. Even when things don’t go our way... and even if we think of a plan that’s good... and it doesn’t go our way? God is still in control and we need to accept that it’s part of his plan. This does NOT mean we are to be apathetic in life. It means we are to take action best we can and let God do the rest and trust the outcome.

Matt 16:21-23 and 1 thessalonians 2:17-18 come to mind on having a good plan yet it’s not Gods plan

Edited by frytownfarmer 2/23/2021 13:11

rogerv

Posted 2/24/2021 06:37 (#8854538 - in reply to #8853184)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Eastern Nebraska

Frytownfarmer, I am not that religious but I just want to say I respect and admire your beliefs.

JR B

Posted 2/23/2021 12:07 (#8853033 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans? Another thought

Linneus Mo.

I think of it like my cows in the fence. They have the privilege of eating from the grass in the pen. it has everything they need.

I have provided it. They are required to grow on what is available. All the cows have their own way to grow they are each compared to what I want not each other.

But they can go out of the fence. that is their choice. If they do it enough I get tired of it and they are gone. JUDGEMENT

Did I make them go outside the fence?

No.

Did I make it impossible for them to go outside of the fence?

No.

Do I hold them responsible for it?

Yep.

If they go outside of the fence and get hit by a Mack truck is that my fault? I set barriers. They broke them they suffered the consequences.

Same with God.

schmid

Posted 2/23/2021 21:34 (#8854192 - in reply to #8853033)
Subject: RE: God's plans? Another thought

ECIL

JR B - 2/23/2021 12:07

I think of it like my cows in the fence. They have the privilege of eating from the grass in the pen. it has everything they need.

I have provided it. They are required to grow on what is available. All the cows have their own way to grow they are each compared to what I want not each other.

But they can go out of the fence. that is their choice. If they do it enough I get tired of it and they are gone. JUDGEMENT

Did I make them go outside the fence?

No.

Did I make it impossible for them to go outside of the fence?

No.

Do I hold them responsible for it?

Yep.

If they go outside of the fence and get hit by a Mack truck is that my fault? I set barriers. They broke them they suffered the consequences.

Same with God.

I like your thinking...and the excerpt from the London Baptist Confession that you posted above is good as well. After spending some time studying over the past few years, I've become an adherent to the Westminster Confession of Faith, but have a lot of respect for the 1689 LBC. I know I have a ways to go, and I sure don't always trust His sovereignty the way I should, but I'm thankful for what the Word teaches us about who He is, and how clear it is. There's something about this forum that I've noticed before, not a whole lot of Reformed guys around here, maybe they are lurkers though!!

Gearclash

Posted 2/23/2021 13:05 (#8853163 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Sioux County, NWIA

Chris - 2/23/2021 07:57

When I hear that I have to wonder.

So, if God has plans for each of us then do we have free will?

We have a corrupt free will. We do not do God’s will for us. God’s will is revealed in the Ten Commandments, or can be summed up very simply as is recorded in the New Testament “Love God above all and your neighbor as yourself.”

The Ten Commandments et al are part of the Will of God’s Command, in other words what we are supposed to do. What we actually do is comprehended in something called the Will of God’s Decree, God’s foreknowledge of what we, with our corrupted free will, will do.

linsal

Posted 2/23/2021 13:07 (#8853174 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Richland Center, Wi

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author.

NEMOScott

Posted 2/23/2021 16:00 (#8853455 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: Great question

Callao, Missouri

This is a great question Chris that merits the discussion so far. I am not going to pretend to have the knowledge to confirm one way or another, as much debate has been presented by people much smarter and more knowledgeable than myself.

I would however like to point you, and anyone else reading this to the writings of CS Lewis. specifically some of his work compiled into the book ‘Mere Christianity’. He explains things in a unique way that even a simpleton like me can grasp given enough readings.

tmrand

Posted 2/24/2021 06:43 (#8854550 - in reply to #8853455)
Subject: RE: Great question

Southeast Colorado

I'll have to check into that book. Thanks

jjoseph

Posted 2/23/2021 16:28 (#8853494 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

SW minn

He gives you choices. If somebody prays for patients does God give them patience or does he give them an opportunity to be patient. If somebody prayers for courage does God give them courage or does he give them the opportunity to learn courage?. If somebody ask God for the family to be closer. Does God give them a warm and fuzzy feeling inside or does he give them an opportunity to love each other?

patt0463

Posted 2/23/2021 16:31 (#8853500 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

NE Oregon

Started a new church over that question just over a year ago.

Had been a part of a church for 4 years after moving back to my home county. In that time the founding pastor got burnt out and decided to pull back from lead pastor ministry and go to his home area to take care of his ailing parents. Interim pastor who was great, and a search for a new pastor. Hired a hotshot young fellow from Dallas, graduate of Dallas theological seminary, been working full time ministry down there for a while. Seems like a real nice guy, gives good messages. Pretty mild mannered type. About 6 months after hiring him he teaches a message on John 6, and about God’s sovereignty, sotereiology, election, and the “gospel” known as Calvinism.

Many personal discussions about this topic. He is a strong hardline Calvinist. Wouldn’t even consider that this topic has been debated by many brilliant men foe hundreds of years and truly we won’t know until we die and meet our Maker. Said that believing that God doesn’t meticulously control every molecule at all times is to say that God isn’t all powerful. Considered it tantamount to heresy.

We were welcome to stay in the church, just not to challenge that doctrine.

Group of us left, and formed a new church.

REH

Posted 2/23/2021 19:35 (#8853870 - in reply to #8853500)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

SE Lancaster co PA

You made the right choice in walking away from Calvinism.

Dave Cen.Ia

Posted 2/23/2021 17:03 (#8853552 - in reply to #8852573)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Nevada, Iowa

I read only a couple responses, I didn't want to cloud my thought process which I believe to be nearly perfect when left to it's own input. Just kidding, of course.
Could you agree that we are free to make choices, good or bad? Although those choices may not alter the path we are on, they could indeed alter future roads we have yet to travel.

jonnypop56

Posted 2/23/2021 21:52 (#8854229 - in reply to #8853552)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Question: If God is all powerful could he make a rock so big that he couldn’t lift it?

Answer: Yes. He made YOU!

I believe the answer to our questions lies in humbly coming to scripture to see what it tells us. These issues are apprehended by faith and so have a different flavor than math problems; those that don’t care to pursue the possibility of an unseen spiritual life will generally not find it. Putting oneself in a setting that makes that available is a good step in that process if one is interested.

Dave Cen.Ia

Posted 2/24/2021 16:11 (#8855624 - in reply to #8854229)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Nevada, Iowa

If you meant to compare me (or anyone else) to something immovable or unyielding, it certainly doesn't seem Christian in nature. At the very least, it doesn't seem very kind.

jonnypop56

Posted 2/24/2021 22:12 (#8856472 - in reply to #8855624)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Not directed at you Dave—sorry!

Dave Cen.Ia

Posted 2/26/2021 13:10 (#8859783 - in reply to #8856472)
Subject: RE: God's plans?

Nevada, Iowa

I understand, my apologies.

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