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Michigan. | Originally posted by Chimel in Parenthesis...my bust for not finding the script color button.
"Granted this is not all about organic vs. conventional, but organic farming is also based on sustainability and responsibility.
As for the latter, studies about the health benefits of organics have a hard time proving anything specific. I'd rather take a look at the whole picture: Health issues have never been so present and so costly, and you can't put it all on air pollution and obesity. There are hundreds of chemical substances registered for use in agriculture, manufacturing and the food industry, only a few dozens being actually regulated. These includes compounds similar to feminine hormones in our food, 2,4-D and other chemicals in our ground water, and stuff you really don't want to breathe that is emanating every day from our carpets, wall paints, etc. Average life expectancy is now declining in the U.S., and since the ancients said "we are what we eat", I can't help thinking that non-organic food is partly responsible for this mess. The growth hormone used in milk production has already been shown to impact puberty for girls, some reaching puberty before they're 10, but it is hard to differentiate by how much the added GM-produced hormones impact over the hormones present naturally in milk, or what are exactly the effects of these feminine hormones on boys and teenagers. For many studies, we just don't know what to look for in the first place, so it's no wonder there are few of them, and even fewer proving anything. Another example is the dozens of different compounds pesticides degrade into. A typical Californian strawberry field might use over a dozen of chemical substances. We just haven't got the slightest idea how these products degrade and how the degraded products combine together. And several of these so-called quickly degrading products have been shown to leach into the ground water undegraded.
I'd rather be safe than sorry, even though I can't financially buy or practically find only organic food.
I guess that like everything else, it's more a question of supporting farmers (and I mean professional farmers, not just hippies) who share the same ideas about the environment, politics, health, our legacy and stewardship, etc."
So essentially what you are saying there, is repeating the lies and slander of the Organic industrys fear mongering and appeal to ignorance, because of your emotional response to your self imposed ignorance, concering modern agricultural pesticides, thier use, and actually MEASURED impact on the environment and the consumer.
You do realize Bovine growth Hormone cannot cause the purported and much hyped connection to early puberty right?
There's this whole thing involving different species, and specific DNA and all that "Science" stuff, that is hidden in all the big words Doctors and Scientists use to justify thier paycheck.
Then there's the whole issue with obesity, and the early trigger of hormones like estrogen, that the Organic propeganda machine fails to even mention while spewing thier lies.
For cripes sakes you would think that the USDA and FDA might actually do some testing or something, to make sure it isn't really happening and stop it if it is! LOL!!!
"A typical Californian strawberry field might use over a dozen of chemical substances. We just haven't got the slightest idea how these products degrade and how the degraded products combine together."
If you read that again from the perspective of a sane and rational person that hasn't had thier brain stuffed with fabricated fears and lies, you might catch the reason the Organic industry lies, are so readily gobbled up by the ignorant reactionarys.
Lets try analyzing your statement, which is almost verbatum from the "Dirty dozen" list(Did you remember it that well, or just cut and paste?) written by one of the most prolific liars and fraudsters on the Organic hippie side of Ag.
"Might use over a dozen"
Or they might use less than 3 that are exhaustively tested and proven to be benign to both Mammals and the environment. But that would be reality, and much less usefull as a tool to scare the crap out of ignorant citiots. More importantly, it wouldn't serve to promote the Fraud that is the Organic industry.
Just for your own assurances though, remember that Fungicides and insecticides used on Strawberries are VERY expensive to use, and all of them cause a delay in harvest as well as labor bieng in the field at the peak of harvest when days lost picking means $$$ lost on top of the cost of the pesticide. If a grower can get away with NOT spraying anything they wont, and will often pay for a second opinion from a scout to justify not spraying. Margins are tight these days, and inputs are insane. If a grower uses more than a 3-4 different pesticides in one season, he's not going to be breaking better than even if he isn't real lucky.
"We just haven't got the slightest idea how these products degrade and how the degraded products combine together."
First off, who is "We"? You? The thousands(ROFL!) of unaccredited armchair chemists that speak for the Organic industry propeganda machine? The USDA and thier thousands of Multiple PhD eggheads with unlimited funding? Or just you, and other organic advocates who neither farm, or have a clue concerning chemistry or biology, but absorb a lot of egalitarian propeganda disguised as factual content?
Actually, the matter of degredation and secondary combination in the soil, is well known, is a major consideration for label approval, and it's use by the grower. Nobody has more money and concern invested in the soil than the grower, and it's a laughable proposition that some enviro wonk Hippie might "Care more" somehow.
Get two compounds that don't play together well in the soil, and the grower takes a hard hit, the Hippie just gets to whine a little more.
Guess which one invests more $ and effort in avoiding the matter.
Just because the Organic Industry propeganda and political circles you find yourself in, don't bother to pass on the complete facts and you lack comprehension, dosn't mean it is an unknown.
It just means you are getting your information, from folks that are either Liars, or complete idiots that really do not know. I'll bet it's a little of both.
"And several of these so-called quickly degrading products have been shown to leach into the ground water undegraded."
Really? And they are still bieng labeled for use despite the EPA requirements and regulation that involves criminal liability of the manufacturer? Despite the third party verification standards and USDA/FDA/EPA verification sampling to standards and Liscensing?
Name one. Better yet, cite the study, and while you are it, cite the EPA acceptable levels of hydrolysis for that pesticide at the point it entered the water table, and the verifying accredited third party that did the sampling . Then cite why it is the EPA is doing nothing and that pesticide is still labeled and approved.
Good luck. You are simply repeating lies, and fraudulent slander, out of ignorance and fear.
Documentation is available through the EPA, and USDA BTW, and those that have been proven to be a problem, have been removed thus far, or restricted to severely limited application before phase out.
"I'd rather be safe than sorry, even though I can't financially buy or practically find only organic food.
I guess that like everything else, it's more a question of supporting farmers (and I mean professional farmers, not just hippies) who share the same ideas about the environment, politics, health, our legacy and stewardship, etc."
Now we are getting somewhere. Your beliefs in the fraud are ideological, and based upon fear born of ignorance, and the false sense of security provided from a "Movement" mentality.
Sorta like the Moonies that realize the haircut is stupid and question it, but wear it to be included because they have a Kinship otherwise.
Some folks are darn happy in cults, and relish wallowing in the collective utter ignorance. I can respect that, and wish them health and happiness in that endeavor, and don't wish you to be shunned by your enlightened and tolerant peer group. But if you sneak the occaisional fruit or veggie that isn't grown in unicorn dung under a rainbow, I promise you don't have to feel so guilty, and wont grow a third eyeball...and I wont tell anyone.;)
Thanks for supporting local Farmers, Organic Hippies and us earth killers both!
The ignorance gap the Organic industry depends on and cultivates for profit would dissapear, if more folks simply opened thier brain, and got some mud on thier boots before coming to conclusions. Good on you for making the effort.
Edited by Dingeryote 9/14/2012 04:57
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organics opposition
