Guys have got to get it through their head that they HAVE to use pre's.     Talked to a guy yesterday from up your way.   He was complaining about how dirty his no-till beans are and that they can't get the TWH (and its getting pretty tall) to die.    

I asked what he sprayed.      His answer,   "RUP, twice. "        I said what else?    His answer, "Nothing, its always worked before."

Unbelievable.  Apparently some people live under a rock and don't believe in learning from others mistakes.