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Best Product for Removing Oxidized Paint
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durallymax
Posted 4/8/2014 19:23 (#3804800 - in reply to #3804555)
Subject: RE: Best Product for Removing Oxidized Paint


Wi

Thanks, glad it worked for you.  It's the polishing time of year around here too, once the sun's warm enough for a T shirt (30* is good enough after this winter) then the fever sets in. Helps that the sun is out so your work looks nice and the roads are clear so it stays nice.

The post linked above describes a decent process. I need to retype a new one though with some updated product suggestions and such, but overall it does explain the jist of it.

EDIT:I guess this post turned into somewhat updated product suggestions afterall.

If you just want to buy one compound that will cut the heaviest oxidation but finish out beautifully then I would get the Menzerna FG400. It's pretty expensive (Made in Germany) as far as compounds go but the results are great and its very user friendly to work with. Some heavy compounds tend to get dry and dust bad and require more skill to use, FG400 is pretty easy to use even for beginners.  

For local products though you will have better luck finding anything from 3M's line or Meguiars M105 or Meguiars Ultimate Compound. Meg's UC is going to be the easiest to find, many auto parts stores carry it and even some walmarts do, the M105 will be a little tougher to find and the 3m stuff may be at some auto parts stores but will be easy to find at body shop supply places or if nothing else Napa.  M105 has a learning curve to it, personally I got some to try it so I wouldn't be so biased about FG400 and while it offers just as much cut it doesn't finish as nice and it is not very nice to work with. Dry's early so you will want a water spritzer with you to extend the working time and it wipes off very hard. It has its place though as its half the price of FG400 and more readily available so I can see why people like it. M105 is most commonly followed with M205 for the final finish.  I have used the Ultimate Compound before as well and feel it is much more user friendly than the M105 but it does not cut as hard.  If you feel the need to you can follow it with the Ultimate Polish for a final finish.  FG400 IMO does not need to be followed by anything when used on something like a farm tractor.  A black show car is a different story but for what most people are looking for when it comes to ag equipment, one step with FG400 is enough.  I have not used any of 3M's stuff to compare it, I have a neighbor that uses all 3m in his paint shop so I may grab some from him someday to try it, I'm reluctant to spend money on something just to try it when I'm satisfied already. If you read the reviews from a lot of people online you don't see many steering you away from FG400 either unless its due to cost or they are just fans of other brands/systems like anything else.  The Meguiars stuff I listed is all SMAT (Super Micro Abrasive Tech) and the Menzerna is all DAT (Diminishing Abrasive Tech). DAT polishes have to be worked a certain amount of time so the abrasives break down and leave a smooth finish.  SMAT technically does not as the abrasives stay the same size the entire time, you still need to work it enough times to get good results though. Generally 6 section passes is enough.

If you want options for compounds though I would get FG400, PF2500 and SF4000.  FG400 will be the workhorse and what you will used most on the single stage paint that nearly all tractor OEM's use. PF2500 works great as a one step polish when you don't need the cut of FG400. SF4000 isn't going to cut much and honestly most newcomers would not notice much difference, but once you turn into a snob about your paint you will see the depth and clarity it can add.  Mostly just for darker cars and such though, for something like a tractor thats going to get scratched again no matter what its just not worth it IMO.  Those are the three compounds/polishes I use the most, I do have SI1500 to use on ceramiclear's with deep scratches but I don't run into that a lot as I am not a pro detailer doing it every day (mostly German cars using Ceramiclears).  I did just get a Rupe's mini polisher as well as their entire system to try. Everyone says it works great as a system so I got an 8oz bottle of each of their compounds and some of each of their pads to see how "awesome" it is.  It's an Italian company known for good quality, if you want the nicest Random Orbital polisher I would say they make it. Their Bigfoot ones are popular due to their massive throw of 15 or 21mm versus 8mm for the Porter Cable 7424. However a Rupe's will cost you 4 times what the 7424 will. The big throw offers a lot more cut, but being a random orbital buffer you can still stop the pad rotation which can limit your cut but also protects the paint. Knowing me i'll probably buy a Bigfoot 21 someday but for now just got the little 3" one they offer.


Pad's are as important as the compound. The choice of pad depends on the product you are using, the tool you are using it on and the condition of the paint. It's best to have a variety to choose from. If you have a rotary you will want some wool pads. These will be the heavy hitters especially on equipment paint.  The power of the rotary and the cut wool offers when used with a heavy compound will eat the oxidation off in no time. You have to be careful though too as you can ruin a finish very quickly as well with too much heat. Twisted wool will have your heaviest cut followed by other types of wool. For wool pads I prefer black wool TufBuf pads that have a velcro backing. They cut well but make far less mess than twisted wool and they finish out good enough for most people so a follow up step is not always needed.  Wool doesn't work well on DA's though.  Microfiber is a newer pad that a lot of people are liking on the DA's though. In my experience these were an absolute nightmare on the rotary and from talking with some others I am not alone. I tried both the rotary and DA versions of Lake Country's MF pads and didn't like how either style performed on the rotary or my Flex 3401.  I just received some SurBuf MF pads though to try out as many others had recommended that they worked much better than the LC ones.  Meguiars MF pads also come highly recommended usually.  The rest of your pads will likely be Foam type. These are very user friendly and the most common type of pad used.  There are tons of different foams out there though. The Rupes foam pads have gotten rave reviews but like I said I haven't used mine yet but plan to tonight. The Lake Country CCS Smart pads are very popular and I've had decent success with them. I used some of their Hydrotech pads and they didn't wow me but they worked okay.  The Hybrid pads I love though. The 5" Hybrid pad system with the Flex 3401 is a dream come true, lots of cut, easy to work with and finishes great.  As for pad size on DA's, the larger the pad is the less pressure you can apply before stopping the rotation thus lowering your cutting ability (except on the 3401 because it has forced rotation).  Standard Random Orbit DA's use a 5/16" spindle which allows you to swap backing plate sizes for various pad sizes.  The Flex 3401 does not  have this ability but Lake Country sells a kit that allows you to switch between 4" and 6" backing plates.  The standard plate that comes with the 3401 is 5.5".  Rotary buffers use a standard 5/8" thread.  5.5" and 6.5" are most people choices for pad sizes on DA's.  Rotaries can take advantage of larger pads when working in large areas as they generate enough cut as it is.  You may want some smaller pads and backing plate though to fit into tighter places.


I guess I kind of started talking about all of this backwards and should have talked about the tools first to avoid confusion. There's two types of tools, Dual Action and Rotary. Rotary is what it sounds like, a buffer that spins with no oscillation. Just like a grinder but at much lower RPM's.  Rotaries scare a lot of people because others lead them to believe that without a week course on how to use one, you ill ruin your paint. While the potential is there to burn through some paint, pick up a piece of dirt and make things worse or some other sort of issue, its not as bad as some make it out to be. It really takes a lot to burn through paint, but every paint is different. I never had any experience buffing anything and had nobody to teach me really. I had some auto body buddies but I will tell you right now that what most guys learn in auto body work with regards to buffing is geared towards production and fresh paint which is not what you will be doing.  Like anything there are some people who naturally pick up on things better than others, but you still don't have to be completely scared of the rotary. It's a great tool that will make your life easier. I like detailing stuff, but I get bored easily and I never like to work any harder than I have to. I am also very picky about quality and not much I do is ever "good enough" That is why I dove into it with a rotary from the start, its the fastest way to get it done and get the best results that I can get. Without it I know I would be mad that the potential was there for better results if my results were not good enough with another tool. Just like most of us felt when waxing by hand and then wondering how to really get the oxidation off.  I love my Flex PE14 but they are over $400.  It's very smooth and comfortable to use on paint as well as very precise (Made In Germany). I'm  a tool snob though and realize many do not wish to spend that kind of money, or can't justify it. I also own a Dewalt 849X for metal polishing because it offers more speed and power than the Flex and is just built a little tougher for the rigors of metal polishing. The Flex is not weak, its just more of a luxury car where the 849X is like your pickup. I like the Lint screens on it too and the bale handle is nice for metal polishing as I am always holding it sideways for that. For paint I do not like using any handles, I just grab the head.(that sounded dirty). You will notice a lot of people do this and you will notice machines like the 849X and PE14 are designed to accommodate this style.  The reason for not using a side handle is control, unlike what your auto body buddies may show you, you do not want to run the pad on an extreme edge. You want it mostly flat.  You will also want to apply some pressure for some control and added cut, if you do this with a side handle you are applying pressure to the side and have a tendancy to run the pad on more of an edge. Running on an edge will cut like crazy but it is also very easy to go to far and it can leave swirls and holograms that will take another step to remove.  It feels akward at first since you are used to side handles on your grinder and such, but once you try it you'll like it.  

Back to the 849X, its half the price of the Flex and every bit as capable and comfortable to use. A bit heavier and a bit noisier, but works great and you can find one at your local store sometimes.  Makita also makes a great rotary for a similar price, the 9227.  Many other brands also offer rotaries but these two are very common.  If you still do not want to spend that much you can get a Harbor Freight rotary for much less.  There's nothing wrong with them but they do have a tendancy to be very erratic with the RPM's at times which will screw with you but make you a better operator.  What you want in a rotary is power (over 1000watts), lightweight so its comfortable to hold for a few hours, and speed's between 600-2000RPM. Most work is done between 1000-1800RPM. Faster speed means more heat and more cut but more potential for issues.  You don't necessarily need the ultra low speeds but some people like them for "jeweling" where you use a very soft pad, very fine polish and work very slowly to "jewel" the paint to perfection.  If you are worried about ruining paint with a rotary but think you want to go that route, the best teacher is yourself.  With some research online you can get some good tips, or email me I'm glad to help.  Practice on stuff that doesn't matter so you can get a feel for how it works. The issue with a lot of the info online is that it's all about cars with clear coats and most people on here want to shine up their tractors with single stage paint, gel coats or powder coats.  Generally the paint on our equipment is actually pretty thick compared to the clear coat on cars but it does take a more agressive approach to correct IMO.  To practice on Clearcoats go to the junkyard and get some scrap car hoods, ones that are smashed that they don't want anything for. Bring them home and practice on them. Intentionally try to burn through the paint so you can see what it really takes.  If you can find a junk fiberglass truck hood that would be great practice for what you will encounter with a lot of tractors as most big trucks do not have a clear coat and fiberglass reacts much differently than metal.  Practice on them and see how hard you really have to try in order to mess things up, it takes more than many people think. Then go to work on your own stuff. Remember to always try the least agressive product first, dont dive into everything with a heavy compound and wool. You are removing paint when buffing so only remove what is needed to get the results you want, this will leave more paint down the road for more corrections if needed and extends the time before a repaint is needed if ever.  It's important to note that a rotary is not a one tool system, you will often want to follow it with a DA to remove hologram's and swirls. Even the best detailers have a hard time finishing with a Rotary and find it quicker to just use a DA.  Now for most Ag equipment though a rotary is going to make most people happy, but if you are doing black Mercedes and Audi's you may want to get another tool around.


The Dual Action polisher is the safer alternative.  Most of these are Random Orbital polishers meaning they oscillate and have a counterweight that helps to keep the pad rotating but the force from the counterweight can be overpowered by putting too much pressure on the pad causing it to not rotate anymore and just oscillate.  There is nothing making the pad rotate other than the counterweight. This is what makes these machines safe but also lowers their cutting ability.  Its best to put a mark on your backing pads so you can tell that they are rotating because if they are not rotating you are not correcting any paint.  Pressure is what stops the rotation of the pad, if it stops ease up on the machine a bit and it should start spinning again.  The Porter Cable 7424XP is a very popular affordable and comfortable to use DA.  Some choose the Harbor Freight route as well but the savings are not very big as the PC is only $100 to begin with.  The PC has an 8mm throw. The throw of a machine also determines its correcting ability partially, generally speaking a larger throw will correct more.  The Rupes DA's have huge throws but have big price tags too. Nice if you want one though.  

Then there is the Flex 3401 which is a DA but it uses forced rotation. It has an 8mm oscillation throw but the rotation of the pad is geared to the motor so it will never stop regardless of how much pressure you put on it.  This is what makes this machine an all around work horse. This machine will cut very well but due to its DA motion it finishes perfect.  If you were looking for one machine to buy that could offer a lot of cut but still finish beautifully, then this is the machine to get. It's around $400 with a long cord, but it will do nearly everything you want and make you happy. It's nice to run but the rotation is reversed which screws with some peoples heads. Otherwise though its very comfy and user friendly.  Pair this machine with Lake Country's Hybrid pads and FG400 along with SF2500 and you'll be impressed.

Good tecnique is as important as good tools. A few quick tips, always drape the cord over your shoulder so its not dragging on the paint. I like to apply product to a DA pad in 4 pea sized dots. Many people like to prime the pad first where you spread product over the entire face of the pad before adding the 4 pea sized drops. Place the machine on the paint before turning it on, turn it on low at first and spread the product into a 2x2 square working back and forth overlapping 50% then perpendicular to that.  The reason for this size is because its within your shoulders so you will have the most control and apply the most even pressure, working outside of this you will be inconsistent.  Once the product is spread, crank the speed up and work the product. Usually 6 passes is enough. alternate working N/S, E/W with the same 50% overlap.  After a little while you will want to clean the pad. You can use a pad washer but they are pricey. A terry towel held on the face of the pad by your hand, then turn the machine on and hold it, this will do a good job of cleaning it. You can use a nylon pad brush as well. These tips are for foam pads, for wool on a rotary you will want to use a spur. For MF pads you will want to use compressed air to clean and fluff them.  Clean or change pads often for best results. When finished wash them in warm water with a pad cleaner to help remove the compounds then air dry face down so the backing does not start to seperate.  For applying product when working with a rotary squeeze a line out directly on the panel, then tilt the rotary slighting and run the bead into the pad at the 10 o clock position. This will "pick up" the bead and then you can start spreading it.


Preperation is key though, just like with painting, a good buffing is about the prep work.  You need clean paint thats decontaminated.  I'll try to talk less on this part.  Use a two bucket wash method regardless of the wash you choose, one bucket is rinse and the other has your car wash product in it. This keeps the dirt seperate and preserves your finish as well as doing a better job of washing. You can use grit guards if you prefer but really keeping the mitt out of the bottom of the bucket does the same thing.   For traditional washes, I used to reccommend Mr Pink but that stuff really let me down, didn't really do anything. I now use Duragloss or Optimum Car Wash. A foam cannon can help for a pre soak if you wish, you can attach them to your pressure washer.  Then use a good wash mitt and the two buckets for cleaning. Don't "scrub" the paint, gently wash it and clean the mitt often. I like microfiber mitts, but you just need something very soft.  I prefer rinseless washes if possible. I used to recommend CG Ecowash but it too kind of let me down and wasn't cost effective. Optimum No Rinse is really the staple in the industry for rinseless washes and has worked well for me. You can use the same two bucket method with a wash mitt, or you can get a bunch of heavy weight (600-700gsm) Microfibers and soak them in the ONR bucket then use them to clean a section and throw that towel immediately into the rinse bucket then grab the next one. This was a dirty towel/mitt never touches your paint.  If the paint is already clean and it just needs a light cleaning, then I like waterless washes. I use Ultima Waterless Wash Concentrate and 700gsm microfibers. Just spray it on and wipe it off.  Its important to dry your paint after washing as well. Waffle weave microfibers work great for this. It helps to use a spray wax to add some lube when drying as well. I use Optimum Car Wax as a spray wax.

Once cleaned you need to decontaminate the paint. Most tractors have never had it done so CarPro's TRIX works well to just spray on everything. It combines Tar X and Iron X. Tar X melts tar and Iron X removes metal deposits like rail dust.  Doing these two before clay will reduce the amount of work you need to do with clay and extend the life of your clay.  Once those two are done you can clay bar the paint or use Nanoskin which is what I prefer now. They make a towel you can use otherwise they make pads you can put on the DA. Much faster than clay. Clay still works good though.

With the paint clean you can go into compounding it. When you are finished compounding you will want to use a 15% IPA to wipe down the paint and remove any residual products before applying a sealant or wax. You can also use something like Menzerna Top Inspection.

Wax choice is crazy, hundreds to choose from everybody has their picks. I look at it from a working vehicle standpoint though which means no wax, just sealants or coatings. I like Menzerna Power Lock for a polymer sealant. This will last much longer than wax and putting it on two times per year should suffice.  I like paint coatings more though, Opti-Coat 2.0 has worked great for me. There are a few others coming to the consumer market but do to them all being permanent and requiring a bit of skill to apply they are slow to come from professional only markets. The nice thing with these is you are done, no more polishing needed. The only way to remove the coating is by polishing so harsh soaps and chemicals and such should not effect it. Its too early to tell how some of the chemicals on the farm including manure, etch into it if at all though. Time will tell.


Hopefully some of this helped and didn't create more questions for you. You can always email me if you would like. 

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