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Deere/Detroit
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lippy
Posted 2/3/2017 22:48 (#5815325)
Subject: Deere/Detroit


Tech was telling me that he understood  that there was at least some shared development of  Deere's 13.5 litre diesel engine   with Detroit Engines.

He is a good guy and  wasn't entirely sure about it all,  but  this made me wonder if any Detroit products share that infamous engine destroying  gear-driven coolant pump setup...?

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mr8850
Posted 2/3/2017 23:58 (#5815396 - in reply to #5815325)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


Minot ND

I was at deere when the 8960 was being developed, deere wanted to go with the new 60 series Detroit, The R and D department went and interviewed a group of buyers and they said that if put in a Detroit engine we wont buy them. so deere went with cummins.

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JohnW
Posted 2/4/2017 01:26 (#5815417 - in reply to #5815325)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


NW Washington
I don't know anything specific, but Google pulls up an old AP news release from 1986 that discusses a John Deere Detroit Diesel joint agreement.
I have idea if these plans were ever realized.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/GM-Deere-To-Combine-Diesel-Engine...
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Mitchco
Posted 2/4/2017 06:05 (#5815466 - in reply to #5815325)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


SW OH
I remember a rumor at the dealership in the 80s about Deere getting into the on road truck engine market. The rumor changed to one of the engineers at DD were having trouble meeting tier one emissions and asked Deere for help. Deere obliged and had a lot to do with the design of the 60 series engine In exchange for DD helping Deere get in the truck engine market. Made sense since Deere and GM had been working with each other for years. After the 60 series was a success, DD told Deere "thanks for the help, deal over, see ya". Part of the reason Deere stopped using GM components. I've even heard that early 60 series have Deere casting numbers on some parts.

Mitchco
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dixonman
Posted 2/4/2017 06:05 (#5815467 - in reply to #5815417)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


A lot of the Detroit blocks were cast in Deere foundry.
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thorfarms
Posted 2/4/2017 06:52 (#5815504 - in reply to #5815466)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


Lincoln, North Dakota
The 12.5L was developed when Deere and Detroit where in bed together
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Corn Field Cadillac
Posted 2/4/2017 07:00 (#5815512 - in reply to #5815466)
Subject: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Center of the Universe, Huron County, Ontario. Can
I'm a District Service Manager for Detroit Diesel / Freightliner for over 20 years .

I assure you Deere had zero to do with development of Detroit Diesel 60.
The Deere does share / borrow some design elements from the 60...

Detroit series 60 was developed by Mr Arn Vanderbock. Now long retired.
Who was engineer at Cummins.
He proposed it to Cummins. They declined. He came over to GM, ( Detroit Diesel Plant at 13400 outer drive Detroit )
Detroit engine was still a division of GM at the time.

Had 3.2% market share with two strokes , and dropping.
Burning thru cash,

They approached Deere, almost merged. Proposed renaming co Deere Detroit Engine Company ( ddec )

In fact engineers moved up from Illinois. And some down to Illinois.

It took about a year. Never materialized as Deere had poor sales due to Ag economy.

In , meantime. Roger Penske. Who bought Hertz truck leasing few years earlier was their largest customer ,
He sends in his legal guy. John Farmer. ( no joke ) .
He put the 700 million deal together in weeks ,
Sold off Romulus offsite dyno facility for many millions and Canton automated parts warehouse ( not sure if old Massey or white ?)
Has GM hold 20 % of the note on the deal for next 10-15 years.
Company called Detroit Diesel Corporation. No longer a division of GM.
Allison trans was kept by GM and later sold to investment co.

Goes to Arn. Who had been already getting 60 into production.
( little known internal fact. Original name for Series 60 was Tech 80 )
Also does 7 year UAW agreement. I'm not a union guy. As. Believe it's a wedge between workers and management. But. He could be a case study on how to handle them.
Went from thousands of grievances to zero in weeks.
Empowered staff. Opened the financial books for full disclosure.
Gained their trust , absenteeism went from 25 to les than 3 %.
Went from 2000 to around 700 plant floor workers AND got more done ....

Goes from 3% to 35 % market share for next 12-15 years.
Makes great profits.
As emmisions loom,
He is largest Mercedes car dealer in US, hears Mercedes is wanting to get into NAFTA HD engine market.
So,
Rather then them buying Cummins or Cat..
In 2000 sells DDC to Mercedes. Parent co of Freightliner. Western star. Sterling. Thomas bus etc
Fast fwd to today. Roger still buys about 30 000 engines from us each year.

You could say I'm a fan....

Chris


Edited by Corn Field Cadillac 2/4/2017 07:03
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Corn Field Cadillac
Posted 2/4/2017 07:02 (#5815515 - in reply to #5815466)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


Center of the Universe, Huron County, Ontario. Can
DDC Used DEERES foundry for years.
As Deere was loosing $. Heck, they made motor home chassis to keep the lights on..


The rest. Well see below.
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WItitan2
Posted 2/4/2017 07:32 (#5815560 - in reply to #5815396)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


Pierce county WI
Wow, that is interesting. Did everyone know, that the new 8960 was the tip of the iceberg, as far as redesigning the whole tractor line? Still has to be one of the best 4wd made.
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hillfarmer
Posted 2/4/2017 07:33 (#5815561 - in reply to #5815515)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit



I was going to post, but you did a great job

Ironic they still use the ddec 1 ,2,3,4,5 as they upgraded
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Corn Field Cadillac
Posted 2/4/2017 07:40 (#5815570 - in reply to #5815561)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


Center of the Universe, Huron County, Ontario. Can
Yep
Now it's Detroit Diesel electronic controls

A fun co to work for ,
Helps " subsidize " my little hobby of farming. :)
Chris
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Red Farmer
Posted 2/4/2017 07:51 (#5815593 - in reply to #5815396)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


mr8850 - 2/3/2017 23:58

I was at deere when the 8960 was being developed, deere wanted to go with the new 60 series Detroit, The R and D department went and interviewed a group of buyers and they said that if put in a Detroit engine we wont buy them. so deere went with cummins.



If there's any truth to your post then look at the similarity to my Massey 5200......hoods even somewhat similar.......who was trying to copy who here!? Lol



(image.jpeg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments image.jpeg (149KB - 65 downloads)
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Tyler6248
Posted 2/4/2017 07:55 (#5815603 - in reply to #5815325)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


S.E. Idaho (I.F.)
Cousins had a deere power plant in an ag bagger 10,000 in need of some major work. Ended up putting a 60 series in as a transplant. The mechanic that did the job said it took about six hours, most of that was electrical.
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WItitan2
Posted 2/4/2017 07:58 (#5815608 - in reply to #5815512)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Pierce county WI
When the oems went to proprietary equipment in 2003, it was one of the stupidest things that ever happened to the truck industry. Detroit had to lose market share by keeping it in their own damler trucks. By taking Detroit engines out of the other trucks, it had to bring down the number of engines sold. I used to have an extended hood 379 with a series 60 12.7. International tried to go proprietary with their own engine, and look how that worked. If you look now, the real winner of all that was cummins. Everybody falls back to cummins to sell trucks. I saw a freightliner cascadia from a major fleet yesterday with a cummins. International went to cummins, not sure about Volvo? Even paccar had some growing pains with their new engine, and they had cummins to keep sales up. It's too bad, I miss the days when you could get Cat, cummins, Detroit engines. Eaton, Rockwell, or better yet a spicer and a brownie aux box. Penske did a good job, I think Daimler has made a poor decision. The 12.7 was a good engine, not necessarily better than the n14 though. 14 litre about on par with the acert and the early isx. Company I'm leased to has had good luck with the newer dd15, the 2010s they had were bad, but they've had some problems with the new Detroit automatic transmissions. I do know the early 12.7s had Deere casting marks on the side.
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olwhda
Posted 2/4/2017 08:07 (#5815621 - in reply to #5815608)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Liberty, MO
Volvo has CUMMINS and VOLVO engines in their trucks.
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LNS8310
Posted 2/4/2017 09:33 (#5815835 - in reply to #5815593)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


N.C. Iowa

Speaking of copying, whats the green globe on the cab?  You may have green underwear and just don't know it yet!!!

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dvswia
Posted 2/4/2017 10:26 (#5815946 - in reply to #5815512)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


sw corner ia.
great story, thanks for putting it up here.
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Red Farmer
Posted 2/4/2017 10:32 (#5815971 - in reply to #5815835)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


LNS8310 - 2/4/2017 09:33

Speaking of copying, whats the green globe on the cab?  You may have green underwear and just don't know it yet!!!



Ha! Yeah right.....thats a good one!
I bleed MF red my friend!
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Corn Field Cadillac
Posted 2/4/2017 10:37 (#5815985 - in reply to #5815608)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Center of the Universe, Huron County, Ontario. Can
Here's the back story.
Detroit dropped NO OEM.
Once bought by Mercedes. ( parent of Freightliner )
Other OEMs thought every DDC engine was like sending $ to their competitor.

Heck
DDC had almost 60% of IH engine build % on big blocks when IH dropped us.

Paccar.
They dropped us. Then came back. Then dropped us again

However.
It was inevitable.
The complexity of emissions is mind numbing.
No way to profitably have engine ( at low volumes ) in all OEMs.

Did Detroit lose.
Nope 41 % marked share
With 6 players in the market.
I'd call that a win.

Side note.
DDC first to go proprietary,
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Paccar with their Dutch Daf engine.
IH with Mann engine, now VW
Volvo always European

I'm biased though.
Regards

Chris
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WItitan2
Posted 2/4/2017 11:24 (#5816091 - in reply to #5815985)
Subject: Actually chris...


Pierce county WI
The pioneer of proprietary components would probably be Mack. I believe sometime just after the turn of the century. You could also argue international long before maxforce. Or even GM with their trucks and Detroit diesel. I thought it was too bad that trucking went this way. As far as paccar dropping Detroit, the first time who would blame them? Nobody wanted a brand new truck with a puddle under it. The 92 series had problems. Then the deal with Daimler, I just looked at it from a customer view. I am disappointed with freightliner, in the trucks they're building today. The old flc, fld, fla trucks were great trucks in the day, it started slipping about the time the century came out. When I toured the peterbilt plant I asked how they got along with cummins since they started selling their own engine. He said cummins has been great to work with. When emissions were added the engineers worked with them really close. He said caterpillar was a whole different story... I do enjoy your input, not trying to start anything.
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Corn Field Cadillac
Posted 2/4/2017 11:56 (#5816143 - in reply to #5816091)
Subject: RE: Actually chris...


Center of the Universe, Huron County, Ontario. Can
Hi Ryan
All good ,

I agree on Mack too, as they were the 1st to no longer offer DDC.
Did a good job on their proprietary components.

Not a problem at all. This is a great sight. All good opinions.

I don't know much. But what I do. I like to share ...

The Century and Columbia were under CEO Jim Hebe's reign.
Market share at all cost. Quality took a huuuge dump,

Company lost money badly, bad bad management.

Hebe then went to Navistar. Then they also got another 2nd poor CEO after Hebe that nearly bankrupted Navistar too.

As for favorites. I'd love an old CL9000 or Freightliner Powerliner with V-12 2 cycle.
Detroit. Turning diesel into beautiful noise, since 1938.

And
It's not leaking oil. Rather , That's " sweating horsepower ' !!!

All good

Chris
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WillB
Posted 2/4/2017 15:24 (#5816543 - in reply to #5815325)
Subject: RE: Deere/Detroit


Ontario Canada
Loads of useful info here. A good read for sure.
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durallymax
Posted 2/4/2017 19:38 (#5817119 - in reply to #5815985)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Wi
Question I have is why Daimler still sells both the DD15 and DD16, or are the days numbered for one of them. I don't know much about them, maybe there's some packaging reasons or other less obvious things.

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durallymax
Posted 2/4/2017 19:42 (#5817128 - in reply to #5815608)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Wi
ISX15 sells partially because it's the only big block option unless you buy a Daimler truck. In the small block world where all of the proprietary engines live, Cummins doesn't appear to have much marketshare. Some of those engines have had their issues, some were terrible, the ISX has had its share of issues too.
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Corn Field Cadillac
Posted 2/4/2017 19:45 (#5817141 - in reply to #5817119)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Center of the Universe, Huron County, Ontario. Can
Western star needs the high torque DD-16 as do some high gvw Freightliners

The 15 is the high volume fleet spec. But trends are moving towards 50% of sales on highway are the DD 13 Litre.

Specifically downspeeding to 1200 rpm at 60 mph for 80 000 lbs.
it's a whole new world trying to stay mpg leader

Others down speeding as well.

Chris
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WItitan2
Posted 2/4/2017 20:19 (#5817213 - in reply to #5817128)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Pierce county WI
I wouldn't say that. All the binders are cummins now, half the paccar, and I see quite a few cascadias with cummins. But for the big power trucks, yep at 605hp and 2050# torque cummins is the big dog. I try to get fuel mileage, but I love blowing the doors off the fleet trucks in the hills. Isx had some problems, but so did the dd15, nowhere near the cat, maxxforce.
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durallymax
Posted 2/4/2017 20:27 (#5817234 - in reply to #5817141)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Wi
Corn Field Cadillac - 2/4/2017 19:45

Western star needs the high torque DD-16 as do some high gvw Freightliners

The 15 is the high volume fleet spec. But trends are moving towards 50% of sales on highway are the DD 13 Litre.

Specifically downspeeding to 1200 rpm at 60 mph for 80 000 lbs.
it's a whole new world trying to stay mpg leader

Others down speeding as well.

Chris


That's what I was wondering, with the 13 offering the same rating will the three engines stay around or will they just offer two before long.
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Catoperator
Posted 2/4/2017 20:28 (#5817237 - in reply to #5815325)
Subject: Nt


N W Ohio
.
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durallymax
Posted 2/4/2017 20:38 (#5817245 - in reply to #5817213)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Wi
WItitan2 - 2/4/2017 20:19

I wouldn't say that. All the binders are cummins now, half the paccar, and I see quite a few cascadias with cummins. But for the big power trucks, yep at 605hp and 2050# torque cummins is the big dog. I try to get fuel mileage, but I love blowing the doors off the fleet trucks in the hills. Isx had some problems, but so did the dd15, nowhere near the cat, maxxforce.


I would say it, if you need/want a big block you need/want a big block. Compared to MX, better engine braking, similar fuel, better on hills but heavy. Service is starting to be a crapshoot. Current versions of both seem to be a toss up for reliability. Emissions equipment the same. I don't know the numbers on sales. I like big motors too, more fun, but the little MX is impressive. Having to pull them for certain work is a downside though.

Maxxforce was obviously a failure, but the N13 apparently is much better with the emissions system from Cummins. The last stat I recall seeing was just over 70% of their trucks were sold with Cummins last year. Still some buy Maxxforce I guess.

Chris may have the numbers for Daimler, but that may be super secret stuff too.
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WItitan2
Posted 2/4/2017 21:13 (#5817326 - in reply to #5817245)
Subject: RE: From someone who lived it. Works for Detroit Corp


Pierce county WI
Yeah, I know the paccar is supposed to be good, but... the isx at 450HP and automatic with epiq package has some impressive fuel economy. I was told by a good friend that an isx 550/1850 was very reliable. I've heard good things with the cummins after 14. Mines been good so far. The cascadia I saw yesterday fueling next to me with a cummins was a swift truck. So I'm guessing quite a few freightliners have a red engine. Good point on the engine brake, the Jake on mine will hold 80000 on every mountain, without needing to hit the treadle. I used to think a 12.7 Detroit had a Jake, but not even close to my cummins.
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Wildcat385
Posted 2/4/2017 21:13 (#5817328 - in reply to #5817237)
Subject: RE: Nt


Central KS
Have never had a 60 series in any trucks to compare, but have been told that a 12.7 block, and 12.5 Deere, look almost identical.
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