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Eastern Kansas | Alright, stupid question of the day. What happens if you let a 24 volt generator charge two 12 volt batteries that are hooked up as 12 volt (not 24 volt).
Background: I bought a JD 3010 last winter from a friend who had bought it from a friend who had bought it from a friend......long story short, who ever owned it when it was last in daily use must have jerry-rigged and booby trapped just about everything on it. The latest snafu is that the starter is a 12 volt starter but the generator is 24 volt. The batteries are two 12 volt batteries hooked up in parallel for 12 volts. I didn't know the starter was a 12 volt til I had it rebuilt today, which is also when I realized the batteries are hooked up in 12 volt. The tech said if the starter was 24 volt there should be 2 of the small plastic solenoids mounted to the metal plate that is mounted to the starter solenoids, rather than the 1 shown in the picture. He said if it's wired 12 volt there shouldn't be any of those plastic solenoids. Ahhhhh - I dislike electrical. Anyone got any ideas?
 (3010 starter.jpg)
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 3010 starter.jpg (41KB - 371 downloads)
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Warburg, AB | 24V to a 12V setup will boil the batteries. If they're wired in series, I believe, then you'll be fine - not sure how the starter pulls from both, maybe a separate setup for it in parallel?
Bruce |
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SE Michigan | I converted two 4020's from 24 volt to 12 volts and neither of the 24 volt setups had a solenoid on the side, but both of the 12 volts have them. I think the reason is that the main solenoid on the 12 volts took too much juice to operate on the original 24 volt wiring. When I did the conversion I also replaced the 24 volt generator with a 12 volt alternator.
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| The 24 volt generator is only rated at 10 amps. That won't boil two 12 volt batteries in parallel for quite a while. But it could also have a 12 volt regulator and then it would be a 12 volt generator that charges at a much lower speed, but still only 10 amps which means it takes hours to charge the batteries from starting.
Gerald J. |
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WC Franklin Co., In. | Sell the 24V generator to someone restoring a tractor, and put an alternator on it. $40 for a Delco alternator at the local parts store and a little pigtail, and you are done. A very worthwhile conversion. |
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Eastern Kansas | Both positive battery cables run to the large post on the starter solenoid. |
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Eastern Kansas | Gerald do you know how I tell if it's a 12 volt regulator? |
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NW Ohio,near Findlay | I will probably be corrected, but I THINK you can charge 12 volt on a 24 volt generator, regulator by using only one terminal on the generator. Each brush charges one battery, to get the 24V. Buy the total kit to convert it to 12 before it burns up the tractor or worst case tractor and barn. What you have is only a guess. |
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| By the part number if it has one. It also sometimes possible to change the setting of a voltage regulator by change internal resistors, easier to raise it than the lower it, depends on the design of the regulator.
Gerald J. |
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| Correction.
The 24 volt generator is not grounded internally. The voltage split of the 24 volt system is purely done at the batteries, neither generator nor starter have any grounded connections.
Gerald J. |
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Faunsdale, AL | I agree with you dondozer...........this thing is most likely an accident waiting to happen.
But, I think Gerald has it right here. I believe the starter, generator and regulator on a 24 volt JD were completely isolated from ground, so no possibility of charging off only 12 volts. That was why they split the electrical loads on the tractor in half so one battery would not overcharge or undercharge.
A Delco 10SI alternator from most any 1980's GM product is easy to come by and fairly easy to adapt to the existing generator mount. There is already a wire that runs to the regulator BAT terminal that will connect to the BAT terminal of the alternator. Install a short jumper from there over to the #2 regulator terminal and then find the wire that comes to the regulator from the GEN light on the dash. It should get "hot" when the key is turned on and light the GEN lamp when you ground it. Connect this one to the #1 regulator terminal.
Or you can use a "1 wire" alternator and only connect the BAT wire. I don't like these much, sometimes they don't excite very reliably unless you make a point to rev up the engine wide open every time you start it up. You also don't have any indication of whether it's charging or not until your battery gets low when it's not.
Either way, enjoy your new trouble free and safe charging system. |
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Eastern Kansas | Thanks for the replies.
Anyone know of a good 24 to 12 volt diagram using a delco alternator? Jersey described it but me likey a good diagram. |
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| I drilled one of the unused gauge holes in the dash of my 4020 and added an ammeter so I know when its charging even with the one wire hookup.
Gerald J. |
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| Basically for all the circuits but starting and charging you hook the +12 and -12 load wires together and to the positive terminal of an added ammeter. The negative terminal of the ammeter goes to the positive (ungrounded) battery terminal on the new starter solenoid.
There is a diagram linked to:
http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72082&KW=alt...
Gerald J. |
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Faunsdale, AL | If you want to add a gauge, a volt meter is probably more appropriate than an ammeter and doesn't interrupt the main BAT+ feed from the alternator to the starter solenoid terminal/battery cable connection.
Or just hook up the regulator plug off the GEN light on the dash and get dependable excitation every time as well as an indication that the alternator is at least attempting to charge (the light goes out when the field relay closes in the regulator inside of the alternator).
Here's the best picture I found that shows how to connect to the alternator.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i1339.photobucket.com/al...
Edited by ccjersey 7/24/2013 14:13
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NW Ohio,near Findlay | Thanks Gerald and cc, I knew there was a catch why the 24 wouldn't charge 12. What a mess on that tractor. We switched our 4020 over with a Deere kit. Was too expensive, I assumed all new wiring, only enough to make it work. My brother wasn't satisfied with using the old 2 wires for charging from the regulator and he run a new, heavier wire. Installed a volt meter and charging light works. Fuel gauge can be a problem, expensive problem. |
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Leeds, North Dakota | http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-8348-alternator-starter-conversion-ki... its Chinese, Scott. |
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| I have had both voltmeter and ammeter, one time in the same vehicle. I don't get nearly as much good information from the voltmeter as the ammeter though the voltmeter is much easier to connect. Trouble with the voltmeter is that unless its connected directly to the battery terminals and reads to the nearest 0.1 volt all it shows is that if the voltage is 13 to 14 volts that the battery would take a charge IF the battery was connected. But the voltmeter connected directly to the battery would run it down when the vehicle sits a while so its connected some where in the wiring subject to voltage drop so it never shows full alternator voltage or full battery voltage under load and shows a higher voltage while charging. And the typical automotive meter isn't that precise.
On the other hand, the ammeter shows energy actually going to or coming from the battery, showing the battery connections are good and is independent of resistive losses in the wiring. It also indirectly shows that the charging voltage is not excessive by the charging current tapering to zero after some charging time and that's based on the chemistry in the battery, not a voltmeter of dubious calibration accuracy.
The ammeter should have only one wire on its -post (negative ground), the wire to the battery post on the starter solenoid and on the typical JD 24 volt tractor that wire should be much larger with the alternator, like 8 gauge or bigger. There should be two wires on the +post of the ammeter, one to the alternator, and one to all the loads, like lights, gas gauge, radio...
Gerald J. |
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| Fuel gauge is a problem the indicator is sensitive to polarity and it was using the positive ground side before, like my gas 4020, the gas gauge isn't so good at indication gas level anymore since I put on an alternator and increased battery life several times.
Gerald J. |
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Faunsdale, AL | I think the small black 'relay' that is shown in the first picture is a circuit breaker instead. The later tractors and some conversions have a separate starter relay to take the load off the ignition switch, We have one tractor with one from the factory (12 volt tractor) and one I converted that doesn't have one. I have had more trouble from those relays than the ignition switch they are supposed to help out. I may have a later model (4430 etc) ignition switch in the tractor without the relay instead of the old flat back switch it came with.
I believe the small black circuit breakers were originally installed in the feed wires (blue and brown according to one diagram I found online) from 24 volt regulator to the electrical loads on the tractor. I believe there were short jumpers from the circuit breaker terminals where the regulator wires connected on over to the starter solenoid connections to charge the batteries. On the other hand, they might have had the battery charge current runnning through the circuit breaker as well to protect the regulator and generator from over current, it's been a long time since I worked on one that hadn't been hacked up and I can't find a diagram online with the circuit breakers shown.
If that circuit breaker is still carrying current, I would use it to protect the tractor ignition switch/electrical load wiring and let the charge current from the new alternator go straight to the battery positive cable terminal on the starter solenoid. A fuse link or two might be a good idea between the circuit breaker terminal and the starter solenoid in place of the jumper wire. |
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24 volt generator / 12 volt batteries question
