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Midwest | Is there an advantage to side-dressing on 30" centers over 60". I'm assuming there is a yield advantage to 30's. Anyone have any hard data? |
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| It is very simple 30 inch you can afford to have a row choke up or uneven application,because it will pick it up off the next row,60 inch you have no margin for error |
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Central Iowa | If you have 2 lines going to a 60" knife or coulter it's the same as 1 malfunctioning on 30" spacing. |
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Northeast Nebraska | Uneven application is a thing of the past as far as I'm concerned. Why in the world would anyone not have flow indicators for every row? Its stupid not to have them. They cost $5/row. Plus some extra plumbing. We moved one year old coulters off a 17 shank onto a new 23 shank. Thought I had all the right injector nozzles on. One row was low, turns out it was one of the half rate ones off the old machine. Needed a 020 injector and had a 010 injector.
That being said, we are on 30" centers. I wouldnt be afraid of running 60" centers as long as you had flow indicators. |
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NE Indiana | There's lots of data that 30 inch spacing vs. 60 makes no difference, the Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana fertilizer recommendations for example. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-9-32.pdf
30 inch spacings takes more equipment and more horsepower, so it's an advantage for the equipment manufacturers. |
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Chebanse, IL..... | dewgubbe
Are you sure the original poster is referring to liquid sidedress? |
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west central Ohio | you got any pics of your row indicators ?
ive like to put on a set. how did you do it ? |
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Northeast Nebraska | I'll try to get a pic of them. I guess with GAS you cant have a flow indicator. I guess thats a bonus to liquid. We had a row plugged on our planter 4 years ago. The day we combined the corn, you could still tell the row that didnt get any starter. Since then we've had flow indicators on both the planter and side dress machine.
Donald, we have a 23 shank bar. The middle 13 rows have 3/8" lines. The next four on each side of the 13 have 1/2" line. The outside 2 rows have 5/8" line. We did it this way to combat pressure loss. According to my calculations, the most psi drop I should have on any given row is 3 psi. There are 5 sections, the center 3 sections are 5 rows each, and the outer two sections are 4 rows. |
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Northeast Nebraska | facebook link to side dress video with view of the flow indicators. hope it works
https://www.facebook.com/dewey.gubbels?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?v=405... |
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west central Ohio | nope.........said not available to me, thanks for trying |
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Northeast Nebraska | trying to upload for the first time to youtube. Will post link when done |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | I was at a meeting where Dr Dave Franzen from NDSU and another researcher whose name escapes me were talking about comparison of various approaches to applying N to corn.
Two points were very clearly made:
1) split application of N with 1/3 at or just ahead of planting and 2/3 side dressed was the most efficient of the various methods/timing of applying N to corn studied.
2) you can feed a corn plant from one side and there is no difference from feeding the same total amount of N on two sides.
In practice the only real concern about side dressing on 60" centers is that you should stay pretty well centered between the rows. This way no corn plant is more than 15" from N, the same as it is if you side dress on 30" centers.
There are so many advantages to side dressing on 60" (lower equipment cost, lower draft loads, less hp/fuel, less weight=wider 3 point feasible, less soil and residue disturbance....etc) that it is worth making sure you are fairly centered between the rows. A mounted 3-point side dress bar also makes it easier to stay centered in most situations.
Sealing NH3 on 60" at twice the rate per side dress row unit can be a challenge but I think we are getting to where that is not an issue with the 6000. Sealing is obviously not an issue with dry or liquid as long as the fertilizer is down 4" or so and the slot completely closed to avoid volitalization (sp?) losses.
Jim at Dawn |
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NW central IL | i posted this in the last 30 vs 60" thread. one of my fall nh3 applicators had a knife plugged for about 200 acres. i can even tell you it was the third one in on the left wing. 200 actual fall nh3. if 60" is ok, why can i see yellow streaks through the field at the slight angle the bar was run. i spent the last day sidedressing running around cleaning up the mess. v5-v8 corn, shouldnt of the corn been able to use the n from the row next to it? i could understand it if the rate was 80-100 units and you can tell me it used it up already, but hard to imagine 200 actual with n serve? id love to run 60", but then see crap like that and wonder |
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Western EC Iowa | With 60 inch centers running between the rows you are never more than 15 inches from a row(assuming you drove straight). Going at an angle with gas you are up to 30 inches away from your farthest plant. Ben
Edit to add - our strip till bar has a gauge on each row for nh3 flow, wouldn't be without it.
Edited by SamsDad 6/1/2012 23:05
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Morris, IL | That is what i was thinking, sidedress your always the same (for the most part), preplant corn row could be as far as 30" from the NH3 or 0" from the NH3. This is true if you driving strait or at an angle. |
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Eastern Iowa | I'm a believer in 30" especially in wet years. I've seen the guess row show up with our 15 blade injector sidedress unit. Sidedressing 16 rows at a time with RTK autosteer and I've seen the two rows that share an injector (oversize tip too) look less green than the other rows. Don't see this often but it happens. |
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Southern MN | tj_farmer - 6/1/2012 21:40
i posted this in the last 30 vs 60" thread. one of my fall nh3 applicators had a knife plugged for about 200 acres. i can even tell you it was the third one in on the left wing. 200 actual fall nh3. if 60" is ok, why can i see yellow streaks through the field at the slight angle the bar was run. i spent the last day sidedressing running around cleaning up the mess. v5-v8 corn, shouldnt of the corn been able to use the n from the row next to it? i could understand it if the rate was 80-100 units and you can tell me it used it up already, but hard to imagine 200 actual with n serve? id love to run 60", but then see crap like that and wonder
The rows adjacent to the plugged row were not putting on double to compensate for your plugged row, so in reality, you only got 100 lbs on that strip. Also, you went at an angle so as you go across the field, so at points thoughout the field the corn row has to go 30" to get to the Nitrogen.
The difference when you are sidedressing on 60" centers is that knife is putting "double" the amount a 30" spacing would be, and because you are following the rows the plant never has to go more than 15" to reach the N. |
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NW central IL | true, but its at such a slight angle this it only moves 2 rows in a half mile, so almost straight.
at 200 units at v8 corn there should be 3 times the n sitting in the row on each side of it at this point, if it was v10 corn then yeah i agee its running out. this is very prominite through the field.not just in areas where it was farthest away from the anhrdrous bar row. even on the points rows where im 24 row wide with planter and nh3 bar is 16 row, it streaks clear as day when you go around an obsticle in the fenceline. its odd, and i really thought it would out grow it, and find the n next door when it got to v6-v8 but it just seemed to get worse. its odd and made me shy away from 60" for now. i run a 25 row bj bar currently for sidedress. wish i knew how to post pics, but never took the time to know how. thanks and goodluck guys. |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | I don't know what nh3 flow divider system you were using on your toolbar however the knives adjacent to the plugged one are not necessarily going to put down extra are they? In fact most typical rental toolbars can be +/-25% or more from row to row even if total flow rate on the monitor is correct. If one knife is plugged and your total rate stayed the same the excess would likely be spread over all other rows, not just the adjacent ones, in most nh3 systems. I don't think your plugged knife and streaks is necessarily relevant to the 60" side dressing discussion. It does bring up the importance of having not only the total flow rate controlled but having that total flow uniformly divided among the different row units. Here is where the ANH3 high pressure type system shines. I believe it is much more accurate row to row than most common systems in use. Jim at Dawn |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | Another advantage to side dressing every other row - 8 outlets on 16 rows - is that you do not have any outlets with double or half rate nozzles. All 8 coulters etc are the same rate. But uniform flow division between those 8 is still important. I have seen very wide side dress units poorly plumbed and produce real green corn in the center and real yellow corn out on the ends. This is not a problem with the 60" system but a plumbing problem that can happen with dry, liquid or anhydrous systems. Each row unit on 60" side dress units does need to handle twice the rate that it would on 30". I feel it is even more important on 60" to make sure the fertilizer is down below the soil surface and covered/slot closed. Jim at Dawn
Edited by Jim 6/2/2012 00:11
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Western EC Iowa | So really, it's kind of like a strip till scenario. If we plug one row and then plant right on top of it, that row will be behind all year and never catch up. I'm not necessarily advocating 60 inch spacing, just trying to help you see what I think you are seeing(I think I said that right). Ben |
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Chebanse, IL..... | Jim
I'd like to throw in my 2 cents on the ANH3 system. I had been in contact with a few posters from NAT that were using the ANH3 systems. All seemed happy. The system seemed to address problems that I've always seen w/NH3. I probably started sidedressing w/NH3 back in the early '70s, though used it preplant before that. The heat exchangers & flow controllers sure beat the old mechanically adjustable (using charts for speed-width-rate) regulator days, but the coolers still had problems, I thought. Large 3/4" vapor tubes were my nemesis for many years, in many ways. But there had been many advances in manifolds, knives, & controllers.....but still problems, I thought. So, we made the switch to the ANH3 system for sidedressing in 2012. However, we kept our trusty Ravens flo-controllers sitting nearby just in case the ANH3 was a flop. That wasn't necessary as it turned out.
I'm a sold convert for the ANH3 system. 101% happy with the results. 2 small 3/8" vapor tubes...that's it. Though the gauges make the system look complicated, there really is much less plumbing than a Ravens type system. Accuracy was amazing over xxxx acres. Turning around to glance at the gauges told you 100% that there was product flowing to each row. Orifices are used just as on a liquid bar. 1.5x orifices on the end rows (15 row bar for 16 row coverage). No, not interested in "skip-row" application at this time. We did that for a few years in the past. If "skip-rowers" can advertise themselves as having no row over 15" from nitrogen, then I'll advertise our every row as not over 7.5" from nitrogen....except for our end rows.
But anyway, if anyone is questioning the ANH3 system, I'll vouch for the product. It worked for us in 2012.
 (ANH3 1 (2).jpg)
 (ANH3 system (2).jpg)
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 ANH3 1 (2).jpg (53KB - 98 downloads)
ANH3 system (2).jpg (70KB - 118 downloads)
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Northeast Nebraska | I'm not sure there is a flow indicator setup that is capable of monitoring flow on 60" center. Atleast not at the rate we are applying. My John Blue indicators have the SS 1/2" balls in the main rows, and SS 7/16" balls in the end. Putting 32 GPA on at 12 mph pretty much puts the balls at the top.
John Blue advertises that 3.5 GPM is the max flow through any column with the SS 7/16" balls. (This is the ball that allows the most flow) |
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Eastern VA. No such thing as too many Magnums. | Wow. That is some fancy equipment for putting out N. I bet that thing is worth more than my planter, sidedresser, and both tractors put together. We are using 24% liquid. We bought a 30 ft cultivator with the piston pump already on it for $1000 bucks. Already had the tanks on the crappy tractor. I guess I got about $1500 in the rig. It runs over 3200 acres per year. (1600 split applied) Instead of one tube per two rows, we run two tubes for every row and use Wilger ball monitors to make sure nothing is plugged. We use 3/8" poly tube, (similar to air line) It is cheap as dirt and very easy to plumb. Jose just goes back and forth for weeks. It's very simple. Only maintenance is the $2.50 points on the danish tines from Agri-Supply. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUwafqyPsnQ&feature=youtu.be
Edited by Virginia Veg. 6/2/2012 09:31
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WC MN | Jim I need a little clarity on Franzens opinion. So 1/3 PP and 2/3 side dressed. If we are talking 200# TOTAL N he is saying 132#N side dress is fine? So if it is at 60" centers now we are talking 264#? Maybe my coffee hasn't set in this AM yet, but I would be concerned with that much N on 60" |
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WC MN | I wouldn't give up my ANH3 either but I like it for the pressure (due to low tank pressure in fall). How much are you applying in side dress if you don't mind me asking? I just run a raven cold flow for side dressing because all I'm doing is just giving my crop a little "top of the tank". |
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Chebanse, IL..... | Sidedressing 110-140# actual N depending on situation. |
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| is that fall NH3 the only N source on the field? Corn only takes up a tiny fraction of N use for the season before V5, but the roots in corn that size certainly aren't traveling very far yet. We've been doing 60" sidedress very happily for many seasons, but everything gets some 32% and thiosul down first with either the planter or sprayer to cover the early part. I would be more concerned without that 30 pounds out there for every row. Even in the last 3 or 4 monsoon springs, yellow corn only happened where water actually sat on top of it. |
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NW central IL | only source of n, 200 actual in fall. this was dads field, i sidedressed it with 15-20 gal of 28% to perk it up and help it out to get to n beside it. biggest thing that botherd me was it got worse the bigger it got, i figured on the v8 stuff, it would of found the n beside it and took back off growing good. this corn field looks beautiful otherwise and huge root system below it. its greening up since it rained, and my sidedress n has hit the roots. im not against 60" sidedress, just stumped on what happened, at first i thought it was my planter tractor tracks, till i looked at the pointrows. at 200 units even at v8 and one knife plugged i felt it shouldnt have knowed the difference till later in the season. im glad it happened, that way i got to fix it before it showed up too late in the season. i sure run over alot of corn at v8 on the ends...LOL
on my own fields i run 25-30gal of 28% ppi weed and feed,then v3-v5 sidedress 35 gal later, or 120 fall nh3 then 25 gal sidedress this is on corn on corn. i like both n combinations. dad runs 200 fall or 165 fall and 30 sidedress, i think personally it takes 50+ units to make it worth the drive through the field
we have the best looking corn in this area for prob 4-5 years, at this stage. im just waiting for a hail storm now, or something like that to screw it up |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | Farmertime - 6/2/2012 08:36 Jim I need a little clarity on Franzens opinion. So 1/3 PP and 2/3 side dressed. If we are talking 200# TOTAL N he is saying 132#N side dress is fine? So if it is at 60" centers now we are talking 264#? Maybe my coffee hasn't set in this AM yet, but I would be concerned with that much N on 60"
No, we are still talking about pounds/units of N PER ACRE. That number stays the same regardless of your applicator spacing.
The NH3 PER ACRE stays the same, however the NH3 PER COULTER APPLICATOR is twice as high when side dressing on 60" as it is on 30" so sealing has to be very good when side dressing on 60" when using NH3. Joe has been working hard to make sure our 6000 seals relatively high rates per coulter and to get it 6" deep in a wide range of conditions and it is working.
I think one reason folks have shied away from placing nh3 on 60" centers with a knife is the tough time sealing. To seal they sometimes have to run a knife very deep requiring a lot of hp, soil disturbance and possibly root pruning.
Basically, when side dressing on 60" centers the rate per acre is the same (2/3 of your total N) but the rate PER OPENER is twice what it is on 30" spacing. No problem with liquid but can be a sealing problem with some anhydrous system in some soil conditions.
Unless you are raising 300 bu corn, you may also find that with the 1/3 pp + 2/3 side dressed you don't need quite as much N as all fall or pp applied.
Jim at Dawn
Edited by Jim 6/2/2012 11:45
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Chebanse, IL..... | Virginia Veg
Sounds like you have a great setup. My photos were not meant to berate anyone elses equipment. I hope you didn't view them in that manner. |
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NW central IL | yes, and i started to see it at v3-4 then worse at v5-7, and sidedressed it at v-8. v-8 corn shouldnt even need 100 units,(half of 200), i dug a root mass in this same field at v5-v7 and rootmass was huge. its making me wonder if alot of my 200 fall nh3 isnt there. im not strip till, so center of row should of wondered 2 rows through the field, and that yellow streak should of came and went a few times. it didnt. |
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IL | tj_farmer - 6/2/2012 23:23
yes, and i started to see it at v3-4 then worse at v5-7, and sidedressed it at v-8. v-8 corn shouldnt even need 100 units,(half of 200), i dug a root mass in this same field at v5-v7 and rootmass was huge. its making me wonder if alot of my 200 fall nh3 isnt there. im not strip till, so center of row should of wondered 2 rows through the field, and that yellow streak should of came and went a few times. it didnt.
I agree TJ. If it was at a slight angle there should be places where it is completely green and not just yellow the entire way.
Edit-That is if the 60" vs 30" doesn't matter which I think it does to some degree.
Edited by Case IH farmer 6/3/2012 02:35
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Chebanse, IL..... | Jim
I think many that I know would really like to NOT have an opener in the row centers which are followed by the supply wagon. This is with either NH3 or liquid. NH3 will often "puff" when run over by the wagon even if you're deep. So, if you're doing skip-row openers, how do you make that work out if attempting to follow the planter rows & how do you provide for the guess rows in that situation? Or, do you have some skip rows & some not skipped?
Thanks |
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Bethany, MO | . |
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60" vs 30" side dress
