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A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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Ray316 |
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Does anyone know if there were any SIGNIFICANT changes or improvements between a 1998 C12 Cat engine and a 2003 C12 Cat engine? They are BOTH 410HP. I would like to know the pros and cons because there are often important differences associated with the SAME model engine within different years. If so, it is of interest to me to know those difference(s) and their reputations between these 2 specific years. If engine serial numbers are needed in addition to knowing the years of engine manufacture, please advise. Thank You | |||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | Both have the same problems, BUT that 2003 model is consided the "bridge engine" model. Edited by CATGUY 12/8/2011 19:48 | ||
Dennis SEND |
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CATGUY, I don't want to hijack the above post but if you read this please shoot me an e-mail I have a question for you about a C-12. Dennis SEND | |||
Ray316 |
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In my quest to make the correct decision I am trying to consider the problems with the trucks and their associated engines. I want learn what problems may exist BEFORE I make a purchase I did find out from an insurance standpoint that the 35000 GVW truck even though it is a 1996 will cost me $2400.per year (not counting the $700.00 plate) The 2003 which is a few thousand less GVW with THE SAME EXACT insurance coverage will cost me $1350. ($1050. less per year, yet it is a MUCH newer truck) That amazed me and I am reasonably sure that you are surprised by this FACT too Through you,.... I now KNOW that this 2003 truck has a C12 "Bridge Engine". A few more questions Catguy.... 1)How much will it cost me to get the ECM read and to measure the after cooler the ATAAC core ("air to air aftercooler") pressure as you point out? The correct fuel setting numbers must be known or I must find out what all this DATA in the ECM "should" readout to know if they MEET the latest updates from CAT. Depending on what I find I may need some ECM Re-Programming, so what could I expect this procedure to cost? Considering that this truck has over 700,000 miles on it I wouldn't think that these problems were not addressed, would you? 2.) How much would it cost (roughly) to convert an AIR START (1998 C12 truck) over to an Electric start C!2 ? "IF" an electric starter will bolt up directly in place of this AIR STARTER I obviously need a starter, 4 batteries, AND battery boxes as well as Battery cables. That doesn't appear to be a cheap modification AND will the electric starter bolt up in place of the existing air starter on that 1998 C12 truck? Well thanks once again CatGuy. RAY | |||
waterfowler |
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Wheatley AR | A 2003 truck could very likely have a 2002 engine in it. | ||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | Don't currently have e-mail. Currently, I'm living in a extended stay motel, until I quit CAT in Feb 2012. | ||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | 1. probably just one hour of shop time (Seattle = $116 per hour) fuel settings(Updated ones) are on an Excel speadsheet on CAT's website for mechanics and dealerships. Just need the engine serial number, then I or a dealer can look them up and post them. | ||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | It is possible, but "bridge engines" released in Oct of 2002, so unless the OEM truck builder had a big inventory , of CAT engines, setting in their warehouse, My best guess is that a 2003 truck likely has C-12 "MBL" serial number prefix = Bridge Engine. | ||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | Problems of C-12 engines; Edited by CATGUY 12/9/2011 12:39 | ||
Schuerman Farms |
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WC MN & Valley of the Sun, AZ | We have a 2003 Intl with a 2KS prefix C12 | ||
Ray316 |
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From all that you have told me, I am not afraid of the C12, however I will check out that engine for the MBL serial number. It would seem that the C12 is better than the CAT 3176B motor overall, and if the 3176B has 350,000 miles from lumber yard deliveries and the 2003 has 750,000 from LONG freight run deliveries,... they were operated under different conditions. To have something else to go on, I was going to pay the $100 or so to have an oil analysis done on the 2003. Approximately $100 is how much the dealer said it would cost. He said, do what you are comfortable with.....no problem. HOW comfortable are you with Oil Analysis used to judge or predict possible upcoming engine problems? Is it a good tool, in your opinion? Considering that this truck has 750,000 miles and was part of a fleet, wouldn't you "venture a guess" that some of these problems you mentioned would have MOST LIKELY been addressed by now? ( such as turbo, injector and cam follower problems) The 2003 truck was owned by a fleet from new, which means they owned it for 7 or 8 years with many continuous hours of operation. (engine warm without short runs) The 1998 C12 has the air starter with 850,000 miles and a necessary AIR STARTER changeover. It is NOT an MBL C12 Bridge engine though. The 1996 with 3176B engine has 350,000 miles and is extremely noisy in the cab, owned since new by the lumber yard, and cost $1050 dollars more for insurance than the 1998 or the 2003 per year. (Did I mention that I grossly dislike insurance companies and the games they play?) I was hoping to stay with a Cat engine and have liked other CAT products in the past. (excavators and skid steers and even the 3208 Cat in an Oil Truck). There are ALWAYS choices with ANY Truck BUT now that you know more about the trucks, I wonder which one(s) you would possibly eliminate?? ************************************************************************************************************************************* On another note, I am sorry to hear that you are leaving Caterpillar in February 2012, CatGuy. It must be tough to be that far away from home living in an extended stay motel. It appears that Caterpillar doesn't appreciate the guy they have, because when I was in electronic engineering they would pay to relocate us and even help us with finding a home. On the other side of the coin we were salary = work 60 and 80 hours per week and get paid for 40 It is my opinion that many people on this forum look forward to and appreciate both your knowledge and your responses as it pertains to any CAT engine. I can be counted as one of those people. I thank you for your thoughtful responses to my many questions and wish you well in whatever you choose to do in your future. If it makes you feel any better, I work as an Electronic Technician in the maintenance department for the United States Postal Service,....a far cry from the engineering arena. I do as much mechanical work as anything that pertains to REAL electronics, however. Up until what you see now in the news concerning the post office, I am happier and that pretty much says it all. RAY | |||
Dennis SEND |
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CATGUY - 12/9/2011 02:25 Don't currently have e-mail. Currently, I'm living in a extended stay motel, until I quit CAT in Feb 2012. OK then here is my question have a 00' model C-12 Cat with 275K in a 378 Peterbuilt (not that that really matters either) but anyways what is happening as you are driving down the road temp keeps climbing ever so slowly until it gets to 225 you can turn the manual switch on for the fan and it still does not bring the temp down, the stop/check engine light somes on stays on for 15-30 seconds then all of a sudden the temp will drop to the 180's and then this whole process starts over again probally happens on average every 15 minutes or so somethimes goes 30 minutes inbetween cycles, would this be sensors or the thermostats I asked at the local Peterbuilt dealer and the tech didn't think it would be thermostats but said if that it would be a reasonable cheap item to replace to eliminate the possibility since they are the orginal yet, I picked up a set but haven't put them yet should I put them in or do you think it could be something else. TIA Dennis SEND | |||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | Question: Can you hear a huge, loud roar of the engine fan, WHEN you turn on the manual fan switch? Edited by CATGUY 12/9/2011 12:37 | ||
Ray316 |
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From all that you have told me, I am not afraid of the C12, however I will check out that engine for the MBL serial number. It would seem that the C12 is better than the CAT 3176B motor overall, and if the 3176B has 350,000 miles from lumber yard deliveries and the 2003 has 750,000 from LONG freight run deliveries,... they were operated under different conditions. To have something else to go on, I was going to pay the $100 or so to have an oil analysis done on the 2003. Approximately $100 is how much the dealer said it would cost. He said, do what you are comfortable with.....no problem. HOW comfortable are you with Oil Analysis used to judge or predict possible upcoming engine problems? Is it a good tool, in your opinion? Considering that this truck has 750,000 miles and was part of a fleet, wouldn't you "venture a guess" that some of these problems you mentioned would have MOST LIKELY been addressed by now? ( such as turbo, injector and cam follower problems) The 2003 truck was owned by a fleet from new, which means they owned it for 7 or 8 years with many continuous hours of operation. (engine warm without short runs) The 1998 C12 has the air starter with 850,000 miles and a necessary AIR STARTER changeover. It is NOT an MBL C12 Bridge engine though. The 1996 with 3176B engine has 350,000 miles and is extremely noisy in the cab, owned since new by the lumber yard, and cost $1050 dollars more for insurance than the 1998 or the 2003 per year. (Did I mention that I grossly dislike insurance companies and the games they play?) I was hoping to stay with a Cat engine and have liked other CAT products in the past. (excavators and skid steers and even the 3208 Cat in an Oil Truck). There are ALWAYS choices with ANY Truck BUT now that you know more about the trucks, I wonder which one(s) you would possibly eliminate?? ************************************************************************************************************************************* On another note, I am sorry to hear that you are leaving Caterpillar in February 2012, CatGuy. It must be tough to be that far away from home living in an extended stay motel. It appears that Caterpillar doesn't appreciate the guy they have, because when I was in electronic engineering they would pay to relocate us and even help us with finding a home. On the other side of the coin we were salary = work 60 and 80 hours per week and get paid for 40 It is my opinion that many people on this forum look forward to and appreciate both your knowledge and your responses as it pertains to any CAT engine. I can be counted as one of those people. I thank you for your thoughtful responses to my many questions and wish you well in whatever you choose to do in your future. If it makes you feel any better, I work as an Electronic Technician in the maintenance department for the United States Postal Service,....a far cry from the engineering arena. I do as much mechanical work as anything that pertains to REAL electronics, however. Up until what you see now in the news concerning the post office, I am happier and that pretty much says it all. RAY | |||
Ray316 |
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I got the serial number today off that 2003 Truck with the C12 engine, today. The truck had a manufacture date of 4/2002 The C12 engine has a 2KS serial number. The owner said 355/410HP MT for the engine, however, the tag said ADV 355HP 370HP MAX I think that would imply that this particular C12 engine was not a bridge engine, which would involve less ECM update problems. I don't know if the fuel settings would be a problem or does this only apply to the bridge engine also? RAY | |||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | That engine won't need any fuel setting adjustments, that issue is only with "MBL" serial number prefixes(=bridge engine) in the C-12 family. Edited by CATGUY 12/9/2011 19:09 | ||
Ray316 |
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Thanks CatGuy, It seems that other than the fact it has 730,000 on it, that this truck is a good choice. How much faith do you put in engine oil analysis to predict engine wear and possible life left? Given no catastrophic engine failure, how much would the average rebuild on this 2003 C12 Cat engine go? | |||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | Some of our "used truck" dealers bring in trucks just for a wheel HP dyno run, take an oil sample(HOT oil), and record engine blowby, during the dyno run. | ||
Ray316 |
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I would think that I could replace the connecting rod bearings and the main bearings with the engine in the truck on the C12 engine. On the 2003 C12, how much do you think those parts would cost me? The 1996 truck has the 3176B (9CK) with about 350,000 miles on it. What is your FLAT OUT opinion of which truck or shall I say "engine" you would buy taking into consideration that one is a 1996 3176B engine with 350,000 miles and it's inherent design flaws and the other is a 2003 C12 with 730,000 miles on it? This 2003 C12 is not a bridge engine. | |||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | Buy the 2003 C-12. | ||
Ray316 |
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The only time I have ever done main bearings and connecting rod bearings is on a 350 cubic inch Gas engine and it was out of the car. I used Plastigauge to measure the clearances and following the recommended torque specs everything went well. These engines are small by comparison and having the engine block mounted on an engine stand makes for excellent working conditions. I have done much of my own work but my only real experience has been in brake jobs engine and transmission replacements etc. One reason I did this was to save money, but I feel my PRIMARY reason is that I have been very unsatisfied with what many "so called" professionals have done. They are far more experienced than me, but somehow many "fall off" because they leave any part of being thorough or meticulous at home If I tackle this myself, and considering it will be an in frame job, what would the basic procedure be after I drain the oil and remove the oil pan? You are working upside down and it seems like many things could be in your way (and heavy), so in general terms what would your steps be to change out the main and rod bearings in the truck(2003 C12 engine)? Can I get all the specs(clearances and torques) I need from CAT or should I buy a specific engine manual from them? | |||
CATGUY |
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Iowa | I will attach some specs. Attachments ---------------- C-12 2KS PREFIX MAIN BOLT SPEC.rtf (1KB - 1174 downloads) C-12 2KS PREFIX ROD SPEC.rtf (1KB - 1138 downloads) | ||
Ray316 |
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That was very helpful information and clear enough for even a novice like me to understand. You mentioned that it is "cheap insurance" for an engine with 750,000 miles on it. Given that I do these main and rod bearings, would you go as far as to say that it is very possible that I may get another 150,000 miles out of this C!2 engine? | |||
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