Wi | DennisZ - 12/19/2013 07:02 I have no experience with DEF but i was told that a lot of tuning companies can switch off the DEF use. Also, and again, i´m no expert, but the other day i was talking to our milk tanker driver, his truck didn´t have the DEF yet, but the newer ones have and he said that one of them runs clean water as DEF...?
If I believed 2% of the stuff that came out of milk truck drivers at the intake I'd be the smartest guy in the world, but I don't I just wash my truck or take a nap and BS about non technical things.
However there is some truth to the story, now you being in Europe could be completely different, but basically what happened here in the states was Navistar wanted their EGR motors to work and they did not want to use DEF. They had acquired a lot of emissions credits by meeting earlier emissions deadlines ahead of schedule, this let them buy time until the middle of 2012 to try to comply with EPA2010 emissions regs. In the meantime their competitors all added SCR to their engines to help meet EPA10 emissions. Some of these did not have a sensor that could tell the quality of the DEF so you could indeed fill it with water and get away with it. The second Navistar caught wind of this they went to the EPA and started suing everyone in sight including the EPA themselves and stating the EPA wasn't playing fair. Long story short, the sensors were changed and if you fill it with water you'll simply be left stranded in limp home mode due to "poor quality DEF".
Moral of the Navistar story, don't get too short sighted and arrogant. They are going through a lot of class action lawsuits against them right now due to the EGR motors not working and them abandoning their 15L motor for the ISX, and basically just throwing most of their investors money down the drain on the EGR motor. The CEO "stepped down".
tj_farmer - 12/19/2013 07:07 well this gullible idiot has a couple of both tractors, i think its a pain. more space on the service trailer for the mini bulk of def. the filling it up every other or third day, isnt like cleaning the windows or refilling the washer fluid, as them get done once a week at best. Its corrosive as hell. i guess its like filling the foam tank on a old sprayer, but with 28% instead. that said, my family loves the quads, when they are running. if you could factory delete option or one time penalty option a tractor and buy it without, im guessing the option could be 10-12k, and both of ours would be without. this is even without alot of problems on the def system yet. with it being like waterd down 28, im waiting for the day things start to go wrong with it.
DEF is 32.5% industrial grade urea. It's mildly corrosive in the scheme of chemicals, but it can irritate your hands and should be kept off electrical components and such. Other than that though the only long term corrosion issues are related to the equipment handling it which should all be DEF approved, basically stainless and poly/nylon along with viton o-rings. They make DEF rubber hose also. Spend the few extra dollars to set everything up right and its not too bad.
DEF components are not without their issues, nothing is.
Maxzillian - 12/19/2013 08:03 I think there are some basic systems on the road that don't have the sensors to tell whether the tank is full of water or DEF. That said, I don't think that is true for the ag market. I'm not sure of Case, but I know AGCO has a "quality" sensor in the tank that measures the density of the fluid. There are also NOx sensors in the exhaust. Between those two, you'd have a hard time getting it to run on straight water.
Early systems didn't use NOX sensors and used a sensor in the tank then used an algorithm to determine the dosing. Newer systems rely on NOX sensors to get a true reading of the actual NOX being reduced. The early sensors in the Tier 3 agco's were terrible. They failed all the time and if you would've had to buy one out of pocket they were $1,500, we put 4 in our DT275. That system is not on the Tier 4 models though.
For anyone wanting to test their DEF before putting it in the tractor you just need a refractometer.
http://www.amazon.com/OTC-5025-Diesel-Exhaust-Refractometer/dp/B0054WI5KQ
Keep in mind that OEM's are erroring on the side of caution when they are telling you the shelf life. They are accounting for storage time, and worst case scenario storage environments. Keep DEF below 86*, out of sunlight and in stable temps if possible and it will last a minimum of 2 years from its born on date. Most containers will either have a born on date or a batch code that you can either look up online or call the company with.
I lost my sheet from AirGas on their AirX DEF, but its pretty amazing how long DEF lasts at cooler temps. At 32* they rate its shelf life as infinite. Just keeping it at 70* extends it well past 5 years.
Steady temperatures if possible are the best for it, basically in a shop if you life in fluctuating climates. I realize for many this is not as easy, for us our equipment is always past the shop and being a dairy we like to keep as much land as close as possible, anything far away we go there full and if needed cart some jugs along as we are never away from the home shop for long enough to need much more than 5 gallons. For larger crews on the road there are options, but they are more expensive unfortunatley, unless you farm near truck stops and can swing in and fill up at them.
Another tip on DEF handling, only buy what you can use for your time period. Its hard to judge what you will burn so if you plan on doing 500hrs a year on one tractor I wouldn't buy anything more than a 55 gallon drum. See what you use by the end of the year and then determine how much you use in a year. Even though the shelf life is longer than 2 years most times, its still a good rule of thumb to not buy more than a 2 year supply IMO. 275's and 330's or bulk delivery offer the best pricing, but it does you no good if 100 gallons of it goes bad. As far as pricing, we pay $1.80/gallon delivered in bulk by our oil company. Others on here have reported lower pricing, and many seem to be above $2 when buying totes and such. Shop around, as long as it meets the ATSM standards its all the same. Check the born on date though, I feel there will be some really low DEF prices on DEF that is about to go bad and some unsuspecting people could end up with some useless DEF after a short period of time.
Remember, DEF DOES NOT dissolve back into its liquid form after it crystallizes. Those crystals will plug up your DEF systems so keep your containers clean. If you use a nozzle on a hoze, store the tip of the nozzle in water so that the DEF cannot crystallize, change the water as often as needed.
A few extra precautions can save you a lot of hassle because unfortunatley when something does go haywire with the DEF system, your power is reduced drastically until you get the sys
These pictures were form when it was just installed but the DEF tank is located by the oil rack with the pump mouted on top of it, then gets pumped over to the hose reel by the door which has an auto shutoff nozzle and meter on it. Its not in the picture, and I still haven't built it yet but I will be putting in a stainless cabinet so that you can reach in from the outside, grab the hose flip a remote switch for the pump and not have to ever go inside to shop to do anything.
Edited by durallymax 12/19/2013 12:24
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New Case IH MX 235 or used that doesn't require DEF fluid?
