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Kochia |
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MT-ND | You mentioned in one of your posts that Agco tried expanding the Cat/Challenger crawler line world wide and it didn't work. Why? Not why didn't it work, why did agco take what's basically a regional brand and go world wide with it? Did they think Caterpillar was stupid or something on why it wasn't world wide? I mean crawlers aren't exactly a universal machine like a wheel tractor, they went through a fad here and then disappeared then when the Versatile made rubber tracks came out they went through a fad and disappeared again, yet from what I understand, in the hills and further west, they were extremely popular. Caterpillar around the world means construction not agriculture, its just pockets here and there that it means agriculture. Did agco try this with every brand it bought? Farmhand? Spra-Coupe? Hesston? Farmhand was a regional brand that everyone here had something made by them, a loader, tub grinder, something, then nothing really happened with them aside from Agco basically making the same model Farmhand had made for 10 years before. A regional brand is what they were. Spra-Coupe sounds somewhat like Cat's story, where I've found articles saying sales were flat and not increasing, so agco ended it and also kicked out a pile of dealers in the process. Again I'm not sure what Agco was expecting with a regional brand. Spra-Coupes were extremely common here in its homeland, and in other pockets, but that was its purpose. It wasn't a universal machine, it was a machine made here for here. Hesston had a full line at the time of the buyout then agco was somewhat progressive with it then rebranded it here, which chased people away, as Massey swathers had a terrible reputation and when Massey is prominently displayed with a little Hesston sticker underneath, it does give the impression that it is a rebranded Massey. Again Hesston was a regional brand, did they try to take a regional central US brand world wide then be disgusted when it didn't take off because no one had ever heard of Hesston outside of its area? Is this the story with everything Agco bought? They buy a regional brand, try to take it global, then get disappointed and discontinue it? Are we watching it happen again with Fendt? I mean their combine isn't exactly a hit like what it appears they were expecting with big operations going back to other brands after a few years. Their wheel tractors, yeah there's a few, but again it's not exactly a smash hit. Then again I'm in articulated 4x4 country, the "big western farms" area as it used to be called. I mean aside from Massey, basically everything else they bought is a regional brand. | ||
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| Midwestfeeder |
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Eastern SD | I dont think Agcos problem is that their brands are "regional" so much as it is that they have a piss poor dealer network. You got to drive a 100 miles to an agco dealer when JD CIH and NH are right next door. Edited by Midwestfeeder 7/31/2024 21:45 | ||
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| 5288 |
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S.E. South Dakota | I thought it was an insult to Hesston and White planters putting Massey on them. Massey might have met something forty years ago. Across my travels I have seen any custom cutters using MF combines in years. | ||
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| WCWI |
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5288 - 7/31/2024 22:37 I thought it was an insult to Hesston and White planters putting Massey on them. Massey might have met something forty years ago. Across my travels I have seen any custom cutters using MF combines in years. Massey had a good rep on some machines, but from where sit I concur it was a mistake to label the planters and haying equipment Massey as they did not have much of a following in either ever except maybe their small square balers had a somewhat good reputation in a limited fashion . | |||
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| GS2 |
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North Central US | Midwestfeeder - 7/31/2024 21:43 I dont think Agcos problem is that their brands are "regional" so much as it is that they have a piss poor dealer network. You got to drive a 100 miles to an agco dealer when JD CIH and NH are right next door. When they bought Hesston and Farmhand, that was in the late 1990s when they did have a big dealer network. Today, your argument makes sense, but back then it doesn't. | ||
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| mschultz |
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Oregon | Anyone who has ever run a M-F 124 does not want to see the name "Massey" on hay equipment of any kind ever again. | ||
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| tommyw-5088 |
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Texas | Midwestfeeder - 7/31/2024 21:43 I dont think Agcos problem is that their brands are "regional" so much as it is that they have a piss poor dealer network. You got to drive a 100 miles to an agco dealer when JD CIH and NH are right next door. I’ll bet I’d have to go 500 miles to find an Agco dealer . Not sure I have ever seen one . | ||
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| The Pretender |
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The Internet | According to Google, Texas is seven hundred and something miles wide. Are you suggesting that there are no Agco dealers in Texas? How close would one have to be for you to use it? | ||
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| TWB |
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| Plus ( going back forty years ) I don’t think I ever seen a Hesston dealer that was not a Massey Ferguson dealer. I kinda agree with leaving the Hesston name on hay equipment plus the color too. | |||
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| E.Daehler |
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Higginsville, MO | Agcos original structure was multiple brands under one company. It worked but it takes more resources to keep that going, something that no one want to do anymore. Go the extra mile to make it work. Thats been thrown out the window since they are trying to do what deere and case does. They destroyed their customer base, which in turn kills the dealers and so forth. They keep playing defense on making sure dealers are there instead of offense from what I've seen. They care more about the world instead of the people that built that company right here in America. This area was atleast 40% White and AC in the early 90s. Now its 60% Deere and 30% Case with AC making up 7% and Massey and others making up the the rest. Our dealer is not the best and it shows but we never were a big Massey area even though we had an original dealer for 40+ year. Their tractors didn't hold up for field work. Corporate of Agco does not have the balls to take time and see what their dumb choices have done in America. A lot of customers would like to beat some sense in them. There is so much disconnect that its not even funny. Its bs Deere and Case guys can be proud of their heritage but us AC, White or any other abandoned Agco brand guys cant be because its not the new narrative. Spray coup and rogator had decent sales until they got canned too. Changing rogator to fendt killed its sales in our area. | ||
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| John..neAR |
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 Caraway, AR | According to the Agco dealer locator map there are no agco dealers in Texas. John | ||
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| ks8780 |
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Jewell County KS | I am happy to have a good Agco dealer 40 miles away. A more local dealer WAS also an Agco dealer but just on the Hesston side. What I hate is the term "franchise restricted" on the parts side. Seems backwards to say you can sell this this and this but not these these and these parts. I know why they do it but you can't grow a brand while restricting access to parts that come from the same place. As for the guys hung up on color. I don't care about the color much as long as the equipment performs. I have red, blue, yellow, silver, orange, a different yellow and GP green. I will say I prefer red though and the first time I bought a orange tractor it took a little bit to get over that color. | ||
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| twraska |
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Wallis, TX | The Pretender - 8/1/2024 05:22 According to Google, Texas is seven hundred and something miles wide. Are you suggesting that there are no Agco dealers in Texas? How close would one have to be for you to use it? The dealers around here that sell Agco are more or less a former Massey, or other bought brand dealership that held on to keep parts for the units previously sold. Then , as mentioned, they cut ties with some dealers. Case in point, Terry Co Implement was a big Spray Coupe dealer in west Texas, from what I’ve heard Agco jerked their dealership. That really makes a person go out and buy another Agco product, knowing not only your brand may be canceled, lowering its resale value, but also you may be driving all of the country trying to get parts. With that said, big Fendt tractors are (maybe I should say we’re with these prices!) catching on in some areas. Mostly at the expense of Deere. Time will tell if this is a fad or if they stay. Cat did ok in the same area when they first came into the market buying business. | ||
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| DarrellS |
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Louise, TX | Hlavinka equipment is a dealer from East of Houston to San Antonio to Rio Grande valley. | ||
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| jd8850 |
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Roseglen, North Dakota | You nailed it Midwest. Several Butler dealers in ND. Service/parts struggle mightily with those brands. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Kochia - 7/31/2024 22:07 You mentioned in one of your posts that Agco tried expanding the Cat/Challenger crawler line world wide and it didn't work. Why? Not why didn't it work, why did agco take what's basically a regional brand and go world wide with it? Did they think Caterpillar was stupid or something on why it wasn't world wide? I mean crawlers aren't exactly a universal machine like a wheel tractor, they went through a fad here and then disappeared then when the Versatile made rubber tracks came out they went through a fad and disappeared again, yet from what I understand, in the hills and further west, they were extremely popular. Caterpillar around the world means construction not agriculture, its just pockets here and there that it means agriculture. Did agco try this with every brand it bought? Farmhand? Spra-Coupe? Hesston? Farmhand was a regional brand that everyone here had something made by them, a loader, tub grinder, something, then nothing really happened with them aside from Agco basically making the same model Farmhand had made for 10 years before. A regional brand is what they were. Spra-Coupe sounds somewhat like Cat's story, where I've found articles saying sales were flat and not increasing, so agco ended it and also kicked out a pile of dealers in the process. Again I'm not sure what Agco was expecting with a regional brand. Spra-Coupes were extremely common here in its homeland, and in other pockets, but that was its purpose. It wasn't a universal machine, it was a machine made here for here. Hesston had a full line at the time of the buyout then agco was somewhat progressive with it then rebranded it here, which chased people away, as Massey swathers had a terrible reputation and when Massey is prominently displayed with a little Hesston sticker underneath, it does give the impression that it is a rebranded Massey. Again Hesston was a regional brand, did they try to take a regional central US brand world wide then be disgusted when it didn't take off because no one had ever heard of Hesston outside of its area? Is this the story with everything Agco bought? They buy a regional brand, try to take it global, then get disappointed and discontinue it? Are we watching it happen again with Fendt? I mean their combine isn't exactly a hit like what it appears they were expecting with big operations going back to other brands after a few years. Their wheel tractors, yeah there's a few, but again it's not exactly a smash hit. Then again I'm in articulated 4x4 country, the "big western farms" area as it used to be called. I mean aside from Massey, basically everything else they bought is a regional brand. Challenger might be a regional brand, but the color recognition that some people preach about and whine about with AGCO is not regional...there's a little brand called Caterpilar that is the same color as the Challenger line, and it is known worldwide. So, while it was not marketed through that dealer network, it was thought that there would be some recognition based on the color. Again, not a great plan in my opinion, but at that time, the folks making the management decisions were die hard Challenger folks...most of them are all gone. Why did they do it, for more sales, why else would they do it? No, AGCO did not take any other brands global really...products, yes, but they either put Massey on them, Fendt on them, or a different regional brand. The US farmers really have no idea what AGCO does overseas in most cases...there are many places in the world that they are it, and many more places who say John who? Nothing wrong with not knowing, as you need to know your own world, not the whole one. Did any of you know that AGCO builds, or at least used to build, big square balers in Hesston Kansas and they are New Holland red and yellow with New Holland decals. New Holland at that time was buying big squares from AGCO for countries they couldn't get legalese paperwork straight I believe, and was marketing our baler as theirs. How's that for #1 in hay? As far as Hesston's full line, eh, the tractors were FIAT and not selling well, so it made sense to kill it and concentrate on Hay and Forage...Hesston is Hay in the west, period. Why everyone gets so cranked up about a MF sticker on a Hesston Swather and Baler is beyond me, but I'm a dealer who flat out says to customers "Use your eyeballs and look at that baler, does it look like the Hesston you are trading me? Hmm, wonder if it might be the EXACT baler you had before, with a different sticker" We never cared about the branding, you can look at the product and see what it does, and I can make it perform. Same with a Gleaner combine...I don't care if they paint it pink, I can sell it, because I will back it up and make it work. You are not watching the same thing with FENDT...it was already a Global brand, not a regional brand. Same with MF, which is exactly why there is only MF in this country now, because it made the most sense at that time to those in charge...not everyone agreed, but 13 years later, stop whining about it, it's not changing. Orange is dead, Silver is dead, Yellow is almost dead...but if you want other colors, your dealer can have the factory paint it for you... FENDT will be here...AGCO has taken it from a European regional brand in 1997, and turned it into a Global powerhouse for technologically advanced, and dead reliable products. Is the harvester 100% reliable yet, not that I understand, but it has come a long way since 2018, and the 2022 and newer machines can run with anyone from what I hear. Is the X9 perfect yet either? Both are clean sheet of paper designs, and if anyone expected no growing pains, they are ignorant of how machines work in the real world. As has been said, AGCO's biggest hurdle is dealer network...they know this, but it can't be fixed overnight. They were actively working to add FENDT dealers across the country, but had to take a break recently with the upheaval in the old Challenger dealer networks to fix those major concerns. This is not an easy process, the fixing of holes left by major dealer chains just pulling the plug, nor adding FENDT to an existing dealer. It's a big commitment in all aspects of the business, and AGCO takes it very seriously...if the dealer isn't willing to do the same, the AGCO goes looking for someone else. It takes a lot of money to get people trained, buy the tooling, put units on the lot, and invest in the equipment needed to go out and support the FENDT Gold Star program of warranty and service work. So, does AGCO kill everything, nope, typically only stuff that flat doesn't sell...or, in recent years, things that don't sell enough volume to justify the build slots that they likely need for other products. Sunflower is the only thing I'd say is dying right now, there just isn't any new products coming, or money to develop them, and they aren't really willing to push much because the factory is pumping out planters as fast as they can build them...so, if you don't have the build slots, why try to grow a brand. Some Sunflower products are hanging in there, discs for example are still selling well, as are some field cultivator and finisher models, but the line is pretty thin in the variety available anymore. It's also understandable as tillage practices have changed dramatically since 2004 when we took on Sunflower. Is everyone going to agree with my assessment? Again, nope, some people refuse to look at a Global picture and understand not everything can be built special for each market...if you think AGCO is the only company who does this, you're also delusional. Look at a 6420/6430 Deere and tell me that's not a European tractor brought to this country. Same with some of the CNH 150hp and smaller stuff...they all do it, but it's only bad when it's AGCO. There also isn't a market for every product that there once was...Spray Coupe was a good example of that, along with the Farmhand line really. Glencoe was redundant once Sunflower was purchased, and Sunflower had better products...so bye bye Glencoe. However, the New Idea spreader lasted until it was cost prohibitive to produce them because they were taking up spots at Hesston needed for balers and haybines, so they decided to discontinue them and remarket H&S spreaders...they did that with rakes for years, but no one complained then? Then there is the White planter...hasn't seemed to hurt it that it says MF on the side, there are still White positive air pressure meters available on some models, and they are still selling as well as they did when it said White Planter...so, the MF branding must only be a detriment when people can't see the moving parts? Here's my question...people bring up the Massey Ferguson branding as being a historically bad brand, which I can say, isn't all untrue in the North American market...but, are brands not allowed progression? You measure Massey by their products from the 60's and 70's, but don't do the same for others...if John Deere hadn't got on the inline engine bandwagon in 1961 and was still building giant 2 cylinder engines at 400hp, would you all still say they were great because they had never changed? If Case had never progressed beyond the powershift transmission that snapped your neck when you pressed the clutch and bogged the engine bad enough it black smoked, would that be OK? Allis Chalmers was a technological leader throughout those same time periods, but mismanagement caused arguably the biggest corporation in Agriculture to go bankrupt...it had almost nothing to do with the products, it was all management...but a company who doesn't have access to the trademarks are supposed to keep painting things the same colors? The last paragraph is written with some jest, but, the points are not...you tout Deere as an innovator, CIH can take brands and merge them and come out well, but AGCO has to leave everything alone? I've said many many time, are they perfect, NO, but, they do a lot of things right. Most issues I see around here are not AGCO issues, but dealer problems...but their dealers don't get the same considerations as the other dealers either. I can't be the same as a Deere or CNH dealer, I have to be better, because the perception is, my products are not on par with theirs. Most of AGCO's marketing issues of the last 20 years could have been somewhat alleviated by getting the dealers out in front of it, and not have us reacting to it the same as customers. I'm thinking I rambled on about too much to answer anything...what do you think? Chris | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | John..neAR - 8/1/2024 09:07 According to the Agco dealer locator map there are no agco dealers in Texas. John Wrong...how many do you want? I found 6 near Dallas, 2 near San Antonio, 3 near Lubbock, 2 up near Witchita Falls, etc. These are Massey dealers...I know of Gleaner dealers in Texas too, as well as Holt Agribusiness handling the FENDT and old Challenger line for parts and service. Now, is there one close to you, Yes, there are 5 within 75 miles of you. Is there one covering every square inch of Texas, nope, surely not, it's giant state...but there are dealers. You have never, ever seen me tell anyone here to go buy an AGCO Product UNLESS they have a servicing dealer close enough to work with. I have told people witting in my dealership not to buy something from us, because they do not have a dealer close. Dealer support is everything when you need it...and only you can make the decision if that dealer is actually supporting you or not. Chris | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | ks8780 - 8/1/2024 09:11 I am happy to have a good Agco dealer 40 miles away. A more local dealer WAS also an Agco dealer but just on the Hesston side. What I hate is the term "franchise restricted" on the parts side. Seems backwards to say you can sell this this and this but not these these and these parts. I know why they do it but you can't grow a brand while restricting access to parts that come from the same place. As for the guys hung up on color. I don't care about the color much as long as the equipment performs. I have red, blue, yellow, silver, orange, a different yellow and GP green. I will say I prefer red though and the first time I bought a orange tractor it took a little bit to get over that color. I get it on the restricted parts, but in most cases it's not an AGCO policy, but legal stuff restricting them. The only parts that should be franchise restricted at this point is FENDT, and the Challenger/Rogator/TerraGator stuff. Some is, some isn't, depends on the commonality with MF or legacy products. If your dealer isn't close to another dealer offering those parts, they can ask for a Parts and Service contract to provide them. Chris | ||
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| John..neAR |
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Caraway, AR | https://www.agcocorp.com/dealer-locator.html I'm retired so I really don't have a dog in this fight>:) John | ||
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| Aaron SEIA |
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| They must not be too franchise restricted. At least not on old stuff. My boy just walked into the local Massey/Fender AGCO dealer and bought a new rear main seal and pan gasket for a 1939 Allis Chalmers RC AaronSEIA | |||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | John..neAR - 8/1/2024 10:08 https://www.agcocorp.com/dealer-locator.html I'm retired so I really don't have a dog in this fight>:) John That was looking for AGCO Power dealers, which is only an ENGINE PARTS dealer, and there are about 3 in this country to service old marine power units sold in the 90's. If you switch it to MF dealers I see 28 total in Texas, another 9 FENDT dealers, and assorted others. The dealer network is not as strong as Deere, or CNH...I think 1600 for Deere, 750ish for CNH, and 340-360ish for AGCO...no comparison honestly, and I can't argue that. They are actively working on that Chris | ||
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| Turbo 8820 |
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S.E. Washington | Aaron SEIA - 8/1/2024 09:09 They must not be too franchise restricted. At least not on old stuff. My boy just walked into the local Massey/Fender AGCO dealer and bought a new rear main seal and pan gasket for a 1939 Allis Chalmers RC AaronSEIA My Oliver parts have to come from a dealer in the next state over. Not very convenient. I think all the heritage brands need to be franchise unlocked. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Turbo 8820 - 8/1/2024 10:41 My Oliver parts have to come from a dealer in the next state over. Not very convenient. I think all the heritage brands need to be franchise unlocked. Oliver parts should not be franchise restricted...ALL Heritage/Legacy products should not be. Is the dealer who can't order them a MF dealer? Do they have product on the lot? Chris | ||
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| ks8780 |
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Jewell County KS | c_mayer - 8/1/2024 09:05 ks8780 - 8/1/2024 09:11 I am happy to have a good Agco dealer 40 miles away. A more local dealer WAS also an Agco dealer but just on the Hesston side. What I hate is the term "franchise restricted" on the parts side. Seems backwards to say you can sell this this and this but not these these and these parts. I know why they do it but you can't grow a brand while restricting access to parts that come from the same place. As for the guys hung up on color. I don't care about the color much as long as the equipment performs. I have red, blue, yellow, silver, orange, a different yellow and GP green. I will say I prefer red though and the first time I bought a orange tractor it took a little bit to get over that color. I get it on the restricted parts, but in most cases it's not an AGCO policy, but legal stuff restricting them. The only parts that should be franchise restricted at this point is FENDT, and the Challenger/Rogator/TerraGator stuff. Some is, some isn't, depends on the commonality with MF or legacy products. If your dealer isn't close to another dealer offering those parts, they can ask for a Parts and Service contract to provide them. Chris Yes thats probably the deal. It would be nice to get stuff thru the local 5 mile away "dealer" than the 40 mile one. The local dealer was a CNH store and also Hesston for years and years for hay equipment. It makes no difference now as they let the Agco side go a few years ago anyway. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | ks8780 - 8/1/2024 11:08 Yes thats probably the deal. It would be nice to get stuff thru the local 5 mile away "dealer" than the 40 mile one. The local dealer was a CNH store and also Hesston for years and years for hay equipment. It makes no difference now as they let the Agco side go a few years ago anyway. Yeah, if the local guys were only Hesston, those were the first to go years ago...I still doubt AGCO "pulled" it, but likely made it hard to do business with themselves for that dealer. They didn't like those single line stores...and in most cases, those stores were doing more damage than good. Now, if that dealer in Kansas actually had done a lot with Hesston, it probably wasn't doing damage, but it wasn't helping AGCO enough to leave it alone too. There have always been some cases of that, and sometimes it was a tough call for everyone involved. We saw the same things around here...but in most cases they were definitely damaging to AGCO, and even though people had to go a few more miles to get to us, we had everything they needed once they got here...most of the time. There's no magic bullet...and I get it, it's not great in a lot of cases for the customers...but I still don't know that I would want a crappy dealer every 20 miles over a good one every 50 miles? Chris | ||
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| Mr Green Jeans |
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| Can't remember exactly what the one at Hillsboro, TX is called. Blackland Implement Company? They are or were an AGCO dealer. Always noticed the Gleaner combines sitting outside on the east side of I-35E. As far as I know they are still in business. Edited by Mr Green Jeans 8/1/2024 10:27 | |||
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| Turbo 8820 |
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S.E. Washington | Yes they are a MF/Fendt dealer. Yes they have product on the lot. Formerly a big Hesston dealer, so lots of balers and swathers. They looked up the parts (hydraulic valve parts) but said they had to be ordered from an Oliver dealer? They gave me a parts list and the other dealers number. If it’s changed in the last five or so years, that would be good news and sure make life easier on keeping the older tractors running. For the record, I much prefer the MF paint scheme over the old Hesston colors. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Mr Green Jeans - 8/1/2024 11:21 Can't remember exactly what the one at Hillsboro, TX is called. Blackland Equipment? They are or were an AGCO dealer. Always noticed the Gleaner combines sitting outside on the west side of I-35E. As far as I know they are still in business. They are last I knew, one of their stores got with by a tornado this spring, so haven't heard how that is. I feel their pain. I drive by them every spring when I go hunting down south of San Antonio. They have more OLD gleaner parts in stock that most if you need something, them and John Schmidt and Sons in Kansas. I needed parts for a 1953 Gleaner T dad had, and they both had some of what I needed. Chris | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Turbo 8820 - 8/1/2024 11:23 Yes they are a MF/Fendt dealer. Yes they have product on the lot. Formerly a big Hesston dealer, so lots of balers and swathers. They looked up the parts (hydraulic valve parts) but said they had to be ordered from an Oliver dealer? They gave me a parts list and the other dealers number. If it’s changed in the last five or so years, that would be good news and sure make life easier on keeping the older tractors running. For the record, I much prefer the MF paint scheme over the old Hesston colors. If they are a full line dealer, with MF and FENDT they should be able to order any dang part in the system short of some goofy stuff. Heritage was opened up 10 years ago or better, there should be no reason they can't order an Oliver part...if they can't, I would be making a phone call and finding out why. Unless it's a they don't want to order antique parts issue... Chris EDIT: Assuming Agri-Service is Pasco? They should 100% have the Oliver parts, they are listed with AGCO as White Tractor Parts only, and that's where Oliver came from. Edited by c_mayer 8/1/2024 10:38 | ||
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| Gearclash |
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Sioux County, NWIA | That Hesston-New Holland one night stand with the big squares was rather interesting — as far as I know it was only the 4x4 size where they played that game, and I think mainly so NH could have a 4x4 to sell in Europe. NH has never built anything bigger than a 3x4. | ||
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| Turbo 8820 |
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S.E. Washington | Thank you Chris, I’ll push on them to order my parts. Yes it’s Pasco….they sure don’t go out of their way like you do. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Possible, I don't remember what models, just thought it was funny as well. Chris | ||
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| Claas740 |
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Postville Iowa | I bought a brand new wheeled Challenger tractor back in the day from Ziegler Cat. Also bought a tracked challenger from Ziegler Cat. The tractor was a disaster, finally parted ways with it this spring. When I bought it they said how great it was and that moving forward everything was going to be yellow and say challenger. Well that didn’t work out and the resale value terrible. Now Ziegler sells Fendt and they say Fendt is better trust us. I trusted them before and it didn’t end well for me. Claas combines and Cat two track tractors are what built Ziegler Ag what it is today. Ziegler no longer a Claas dealer and only sell Fendt. Will they survive not having what put them on the map. Think they have a steep hill to climb. | ||
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| Mr Green Jeans |
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| Sorry to hear about the tornado. Unfortunately am way too experienced with those things. We were all out at a horse barn couple years ago when one was tracking straight for our location. Good to hear about the Gleaner parts. Can't remember what I called them about last but they were helpful. With so much development encroaching, I am concerned for them. Corrected my initial error of saying the dealer is on the west side when it is on the east side of 35E. Lack of internet reception prevented correcting sooner. Edited by Mr Green Jeans 8/1/2024 11:23 | |||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Turbo 8820 - 8/1/2024 12:08 Thank you Chris, I’ll push on them to order my parts. Yes it’s Pasco….they sure don’t go out of their way like you do. That may be the issue...may parts guys get like that on discontinued parts and not looking deeper into things, I have to stay on them sometimes. Chris | ||
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| MrFixIt |
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EC GA | Chris, please keep reminding the Challenger boys with tears in their eyes that Agco never owned the trademark for the name, and was paying Caterpillar for rights to use the name and possibly the color as well. There really was no future in the brand and Cat was in control. It was better for them to get out, than to have Cat pull the brand from them at some point. | ||
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| Rowcropcattleman |
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Missouri | I think that’s correct. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Claas740 - 8/1/2024 12:18 I bought a brand new wheeled Challenger tractor back in the day from Ziegler Cat. Also bought a tracked challenger from Ziegler Cat. The tractor was a disaster, finally parted ways with it this spring. When I bought it they said how great it was and that moving forward everything was going to be yellow and say challenger. Well that didn’t work out and the resale value terrible. Now Ziegler sells Fendt and they say Fendt is better trust us. I trusted them before and it didn’t end well for me. Claas combines and Cat two track tractors are what built Ziegler Ag what it is today. Ziegler no longer a Claas dealer and only sell Fendt. Will they survive not having what put them on the map. Think they have a steep hill to climb. Which one was a disaster, the wheel, or track? Sounds like all your problems were between you and Ziegler...which is most AGCO issues, dealer problems Chris | ||
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| j.p |
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NWIL | This seems to be the common theme for everything concerned with AGCO, dealer quality. Why has it been so hard for the folks in Duluth to recognize this, when current/potential customers and dealers keep saying the same thing, over and over? Concerns with dealer presence, quality, and confidence over shadow the products that are being made, even though many of them are of the same/better quality then the competition. The company would be in a world of a better place if they had been putting even adequate resources towards having more Meyer Equipment's out there instead of spending so many billions on acquisitions. As a potential customer myself, I want it to be easy to own a piece of equipment and have a level of confidence that I'll be taken care of. It was pretty shaky before, much less so after watching what has gone down the last several months between mergers and eliminations. I'd have been open to exploring the world of a Fendt tractor, a much more iffy proposition for me now and will take some work to bring me back to where I was. Right or wrong, thats how I'm looking at things from my perspective, and I don't think I'm alone. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | j.p - 8/1/2024 18:08 This seems to be the common theme for everything concerned with AGCO, dealer quality. Why has it been so hard for the folks in Duluth to recognize this, when current/potential customers and dealers keep saying the same thing, over and over? Concerns with dealer presence, quality, and confidence over shadow the products that are being made, even though many of them are of the same/better quality then the competition. The company would be in a world of a better place if they had been putting even adequate resources towards having more Meyer Equipment's out there instead of spending so many billions on acquisitions. As a potential customer myself, I want it to be easy to own a piece of equipment and have a level of confidence that I'll be taken care of. It was pretty shaky before, much less so after watching what has gone down the last several months between mergers and eliminations. I'd have been open to exploring the world of a Fendt tractor, a much more iffy proposition for me now and will take some work to bring me back to where I was. Right or wrong, thats how I'm looking at things from my perspective, and I don't think I'm alone. You can't force a dealer to shape up...and finding a dealer to start from the ground up is equally hard. Don't forget that if "AGCO closes my dealer" then AGCO gets another black eye because customers knows it's always AGCO's fault the dealer closed, or no longer has AGCO products. Tell me, how should they win? A dealer has to want it. A dealer has to want to change with the times, and keep a passion for the brands they carry, not just carry on as usual. Chris | ||
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| The Pretender |
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The Internet | I was going to say that too. Cat own the Challenger brand | ||
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| Kochia |
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MT-ND | c_mayer - 8/1/2024 09:53 Kochia - 7/31/2024 22:07 You mentioned in one of your posts that Agco tried expanding the Cat/Challenger crawler line world wide and it didn't work. Why? Not why didn't it work, why did agco take what's basically a regional brand and go world wide with it? Did they think Caterpillar was stupid or something on why it wasn't world wide? I mean crawlers aren't exactly a universal machine like a wheel tractor, they went through a fad here and then disappeared then when the Versatile made rubber tracks came out they went through a fad and disappeared again, yet from what I understand, in the hills and further west, they were extremely popular. Caterpillar around the world means construction not agriculture, its just pockets here and there that it means agriculture. Did agco try this with every brand it bought? Farmhand? Spra-Coupe? Hesston? Farmhand was a regional brand that everyone here had something made by them, a loader, tub grinder, something, then nothing really happened with them aside from Agco basically making the same model Farmhand had made for 10 years before. A regional brand is what they were. Spra-Coupe sounds somewhat like Cat's story, where I've found articles saying sales were flat and not increasing, so agco ended it and also kicked out a pile of dealers in the process. Again I'm not sure what Agco was expecting with a regional brand. Spra-Coupes were extremely common here in its homeland, and in other pockets, but that was its purpose. It wasn't a universal machine, it was a machine made here for here. Hesston had a full line at the time of the buyout then agco was somewhat progressive with it then rebranded it here, which chased people away, as Massey swathers had a terrible reputation and when Massey is prominently displayed with a little Hesston sticker underneath, it does give the impression that it is a rebranded Massey. Again Hesston was a regional brand, did they try to take a regional central US brand world wide then be disgusted when it didn't take off because no one had ever heard of Hesston outside of its area? Is this the story with everything Agco bought? They buy a regional brand, try to take it global, then get disappointed and discontinue it? Are we watching it happen again with Fendt? I mean their combine isn't exactly a hit like what it appears they were expecting with big operations going back to other brands after a few years. Their wheel tractors, yeah there's a few, but again it's not exactly a smash hit. Then again I'm in articulated 4x4 country, the "big western farms" area as it used to be called. I mean aside from Massey, basically everything else they bought is a regional brand. Challenger might be a regional brand, but the color recognition that some people preach about and whine about with AGCO is not regional...there's a little brand called Caterpilar that is the same color as the Challenger line, and it is known worldwide. So, while it was not marketed through that dealer network, it was thought that there would be some recognition based on the color. Again, not a great plan in my opinion, but at that time, the folks making the management decisions were die hard Challenger folks...most of them are all gone. Why did they do it, for more sales, why else would they do it? No, AGCO did not take any other brands global really...products, yes, but they either put Massey on them, Fendt on them, or a different regional brand. The US farmers really have no idea what AGCO does overseas in most cases...there are many places in the world that they are it, and many more places who say John who? Nothing wrong with not knowing, as you need to know your own world, not the whole one. Did any of you know that AGCO builds, or at least used to build, big square balers in Hesston Kansas and they are New Holland red and yellow with New Holland decals. New Holland at that time was buying big squares from AGCO for countries they couldn't get legalese paperwork straight I believe, and was marketing our baler as theirs. How's that for #1 in hay? As far as Hesston's full line, eh, the tractors were FIAT and not selling well, so it made sense to kill it and concentrate on Hay and Forage...Hesston is Hay in the west, period. Why everyone gets so cranked up about a MF sticker on a Hesston Swather and Baler is beyond me, but I'm a dealer who flat out says to customers "Use your eyeballs and look at that baler, does it look like the Hesston you are trading me? Hmm, wonder if it might be the EXACT baler you had before, with a different sticker" We never cared about the branding, you can look at the product and see what it does, and I can make it perform. Same with a Gleaner combine...I don't care if they paint it pink, I can sell it, because I will back it up and make it work. You are not watching the same thing with FENDT...it was already a Global brand, not a regional brand. Same with MF, which is exactly why there is only MF in this country now, because it made the most sense at that time to those in charge...not everyone agreed, but 13 years later, stop whining about it, it's not changing. Orange is dead, Silver is dead, Yellow is almost dead...but if you want other colors, your dealer can have the factory paint it for you... FENDT will be here...AGCO has taken it from a European regional brand in 1997, and turned it into a Global powerhouse for technologically advanced, and dead reliable products. Is the harvester 100% reliable yet, not that I understand, but it has come a long way since 2018, and the 2022 and newer machines can run with anyone from what I hear. Is the X9 perfect yet either? Both are clean sheet of paper designs, and if anyone expected no growing pains, they are ignorant of how machines work in the real world. As has been said, AGCO's biggest hurdle is dealer network...they know this, but it can't be fixed overnight. They were actively working to add FENDT dealers across the country, but had to take a break recently with the upheaval in the old Challenger dealer networks to fix those major concerns. This is not an easy process, the fixing of holes left by major dealer chains just pulling the plug, nor adding FENDT to an existing dealer. It's a big commitment in all aspects of the business, and AGCO takes it very seriously...if the dealer isn't willing to do the same, the AGCO goes looking for someone else. It takes a lot of money to get people trained, buy the tooling, put units on the lot, and invest in the equipment needed to go out and support the FENDT Gold Star program of warranty and service work. So, does AGCO kill everything, nope, typically only stuff that flat doesn't sell...or, in recent years, things that don't sell enough volume to justify the build slots that they likely need for other products. Sunflower is the only thing I'd say is dying right now, there just isn't any new products coming, or money to develop them, and they aren't really willing to push much because the factory is pumping out planters as fast as they can build them...so, if you don't have the build slots, why try to grow a brand. Some Sunflower products are hanging in there, discs for example are still selling well, as are some field cultivator and finisher models, but the line is pretty thin in the variety available anymore. It's also understandable as tillage practices have changed dramatically since 2004 when we took on Sunflower. Is everyone going to agree with my assessment? Again, nope, some people refuse to look at a Global picture and understand not everything can be built special for each market...if you think AGCO is the only company who does this, you're also delusional. Look at a 6420/6430 Deere and tell me that's not a European tractor brought to this country. Same with some of the CNH 150hp and smaller stuff...they all do it, but it's only bad when it's AGCO. There also isn't a market for every product that there once was...Spray Coupe was a good example of that, along with the Farmhand line really. Glencoe was redundant once Sunflower was purchased, and Sunflower had better products...so bye bye Glencoe. However, the New Idea spreader lasted until it was cost prohibitive to produce them because they were taking up spots at Hesston needed for balers and haybines, so they decided to discontinue them and remarket H&S spreaders...they did that with rakes for years, but no one complained then? Then there is the White planter...hasn't seemed to hurt it that it says MF on the side, there are still White positive air pressure meters available on some models, and they are still selling as well as they did when it said White Planter...so, the MF branding must only be a detriment when people can't see the moving parts? Here's my question...people bring up the Massey Ferguson branding as being a historically bad brand, which I can say, isn't all untrue in the North American market...but, are brands not allowed progression? You measure Massey by their products from the 60's and 70's, but don't do the same for others...if John Deere hadn't got on the inline engine bandwagon in 1961 and was still building giant 2 cylinder engines at 400hp, would you all still say they were great because they had never changed? If Case had never progressed beyond the powershift transmission that snapped your neck when you pressed the clutch and bogged the engine bad enough it black smoked, would that be OK? Allis Chalmers was a technological leader throughout those same time periods, but mismanagement caused arguably the biggest corporation in Agriculture to go bankrupt...it had almost nothing to do with the products, it was all management...but a company who doesn't have access to the trademarks are supposed to keep painting things the same colors? The last paragraph is written with some jest, but, the points are not...you tout Deere as an innovator, CIH can take brands and merge them and come out well, but AGCO has to leave everything alone? I've said many many time, are they perfect, NO, but, they do a lot of things right. Most issues I see around here are not AGCO issues, but dealer problems...but their dealers don't get the same considerations as the other dealers either. I can't be the same as a Deere or CNH dealer, I have to be better, because the perception is, my products are not on par with theirs. Most of AGCO's marketing issues of the last 20 years could have been somewhat alleviated by getting the dealers out in front of it, and not have us reacting to it the same as customers. I'm thinking I rambled on about too much to answer anything...what do you think? Chris Your "know your own world" is somewhat ironic in a way... The "Hay and Forage Industries inc" or whatever? We still have products from that era and regularly get parts through the IH dealer for our Hesston stuff. #1 in hay I can't really speak for, I know of a few other straight Hesston swathers around, but everyone here has New Holland or Case swathers anymore. That was another "they put Massey on it and it died" thing here. For us, just for plain dealer support wise, we can not even look at Hesston anymore, so we will be going to NH or IH. Do we want to? Not really, but we have no choice. In this area, everyone had a Versatile or Hesston, and everyone had a Gleaner. Didn't matter what other color you ran, then Versatile quit with swathers, so everyone had a Hesston then...its another thing that is disappearing. I know of all the Gleaner owners in the county, the whole 5 of us, soon to be 3. I assume something other than the Massey sticker changed on the swathers as we did have a good dealer at that time still. Otherwise we are the west here. Hesston is a memory at most for most here anymore, and this should be the target area for any brand: disposable oil money, multi thousand acre farms, multi hundred head ranches,mix of irrigated ground in areas,, basically no one here puts up less than 1,000 round bales, and...everyone has NH, IH, Deere,and Vermeer anymore. 10 and 20 year ago Hesston had a major part in every step of the way. Otherwise for branding: I can guarantee you that you have or had customers who will not touch a Gleaner combine because of the N series they experienced or heard about way back in 1978. I mean you wanna talk about branding and reputation, its been 40+ years and that is still the reputation of Gleaner, even though those days are long gone. Wasnt fendt a German/European brand? I mean I'm not finding anything used in the US and Canada, aside from a couple of smaller specialty crop tractors. I don't mean 10 year old either, I mean when agco bought them and before. Deutz I can understand calling that global, as old Deutz from the 1960s will show up here from time to time, but the only time I ever remember hearing anything about fendt is when agco bought them and figured that was a way into Germany or whatever, until "it vill be green and you vill sell it" take two. I mean you say they're reliable and all, yet...local experience says they live up to their German reputation...like Claas...and for the sake of a well and easily available example, everyone's favorite youtuber Mike Mitchell appeared to be married to the dealer for the run of his stint with Fendt compared to Deere and Case, from engine replacements to changing air filters multiple times a day, to not being able to put power down...it just doesn't look good in any way. I'm not a fan boy of him, its just when he's on identical land and conditions to me, and has the money to throw and frivolous things and he went into it as a massive fan of fendt, then see him basically give up on them little by little, from the combines needing engines, burning, the tractor that wouldn't start with block heater, diesel heater, jumping it, the identical horsepower tractors have literal laps ran around them in the field, the demo models not exactly performing for supposedly being a relative of the cat design, the tri daily maintenance from filters to fuel to def, I mean I see that and go "Agco, what are you doing? This is like watching an N series thing happen again". Why would I want to buy a used machine if the ones with good dealers, money to burn, and give it more chances than I would have all these troubles and give up? I don't understand your Fendt Gold star thing...from what I recall, Butler and Zeigler are and no one is impressed with them or their coverage. We don't need less but better dealers, we just plain need dealers. I don't care about their service department at this point, I just want to be able to be within a days drive of a dealer to get parts. I'm 6 hours one way to a dealer that has parts. Yes there are dealers closer, but they don't carry anything. They have to order it from the same dealer I'm driving 6 hours to or waiting for them to ship it overnight. I mean, yeah, great, you know what you're doing from here on what you sell, but what about what is out there already? And...you kinda did say...agco...kills brands...I mean if they're not going to put money towards a brand for development, no ones going to buy the same machine that's been out for 30 years with little to no improvement, then they kill it. I mean that is the story of Farmhand. We have a 40 year old Farmhand loader, an 1170 or something like that, the heaviest they made back then, purchased new, and one of the last Agco Farmhand loaders, the heaviest they made, and aside from their near identical design, they're basically the same aside from the newer one is a couple hundred pound heavier. Cracks in the same spot as the old one. Wear points and wear intervals are the same as the old one. It's basically a 40 year old loader. No wonder why it didn't sell well, everyone was expecting improvements that never came and went elsewhere. I mean our next loader will be one of those that are made in South Dakota I believe, the solid steel ones, not because we have great dealer support, but because they have made their designs into something that is basically indestructible, that they reinvested that much into them. I mean if Agco-Farmhand was still around, it would be really tempting to buy another identical loader, just due to everything having the same loader mounts and all, but...I'd bet it would be the same design, same thing as what we have. It'd crack in the same spots, break the same pins, no improvement. I honestly can't say anything on that Deere you mentioned as that size is simply not sold here. I mean you can order it, but...people buy old 06-86 series IH tractors for that size's work, which is quickly becoming obsolete with bigger and bigger augers. CNH wise, NH aside from swathers doesn't have a presence, CIH there's some Puma or whatever replaced it but even chore tractor its Magnum and up because anything smaller can't handle loader work here. The Maxxums can't handle it. They simply aren't bought here because of their bad reputation of constantly needing front end work. I mean I can't see "global" because I'm in "the big western farms of North America" area where no one buys anything small enough to be global and even then with the new Steigers, people are complaining about the I believe it is French engine and transmissions, that they aren't holding up. Versatile of all things is making a comeback here, and they don't have any dealers here-but they do have the 855 and Caterpillar transmission, both extremely common and basically North American only. I mean to the west of me you have Big Bud. To the East Steiger and at one time literally 15 different little articulated 4x4 companies. To the North Versatile. To the South Knudson, when they were made. I mean, I don't see global here, because global doesn't work here, because...we aren't a section of land like in Europe. Not one single part of the world farms the same. Melroe, which I'm sure you've heard of, is to the South East of me. Header pickers, which are still made by Westward today, the Bobcat, Geisler chisel plows, Reitan self resetting plows, Melroe Culti-weeders, Multi weeders, sprayers, the original Spray Couple was made within a 3 hour round trip of me and is in the museum there, everyone had a Melroe something here because Melroe was the only one who made things that worked here and they stopped at nothing to improve or make equipment that would sell here. They started selling Bobcats before they acquired the design, they helped bankroll Steiger. I don't tout Deere as an innovator. I don't think I ever have. CIH can merge brands because you can still see the sprayer lineage, the Steiger lineage, the IH and Case lineage in their lines. CNHI-Globally, NH is their brand, yet...Steiger Fargo is a sea of red. Grand Island combines plant is a sea of red. Racine tractors is/was a sea of red. Even the NH hay equipment plants make a sea of red every year. CNHI knows if they plain quit a brand, they will lose a lot, not just reputation or marketshare. "Globally" it would make sense for CNHI to quit the CIH line, because it is basically a North American only brand. But they don't. When Agco quits or merges a line, everything seems to be lost, I mean what can you say lives on from any point from, say, the White Tractor line in the Massey or Fendt line? Agco Allis in either? McConnell-Mark?(This is one that was really thrown away). Spray-Coupe? Farmhand? I could go on. When Agco quits a line, that seems to be it. That's it. Nothing really takes its place, aside from a competitor which if you would have liked, you would have bought in the first place. When Case and IH merged, Case was a tractor company and IH was a full line. The Magnum was the continuation of the IH tractor line(the cabs are the same as the 86 and 88s on the early ones) and the Maxxum the Case line. Steiger they basically painted red and put a sticker over Steiger and then put Steiger on the Hood. Their sprayers looked the same as their predecessors for years. Case advertises their quadtracs as "Steiger quadtracs". CNHI and Deere celebrate their history, from McCormick's reaper to Deere's plow to J I Case's steam engines and threshers, the Farmall and letter series. They give people a way to treat it like a family, to see the ancestors, have the past live on. Yes, Case will say "Case IH invented the Axial Flow combine in 1977" even though it was IH, but they're doing something. Agco...Agco doesn't. You don't see Agco doing things like the "Massey Harvest Brigade" or "In 1923 we invented the self propelled combine" or "we made the first practical gas tractor in Charles City Iowa(Hart Parr)" or "we mechanized muscle on the farm(Farmhand)" Agco doesn't exactly do PR or try to be likable. And that doesn't help anything. They don't even use Massey's history. You go to a threshing reunion and 90% of the stuff there has some connection to Agco today. The Minneapolis Threshing Machine company, The Minneapolis Steel and Machine company(steam engines), the other 3 or 4 that merged into "The Great Minneapolis Line" to become the "Minneapolis" in "Minneapolis-Moline", Hart Parr, Oliver, Minneapolis Moline, the Moline Plow Company, Rumley, Advance, there's 30 or 40 companies that merged into what would become Agco and yet...there's nothing from Agco on it. Some random foundry owner in South Dakota got bored and recreated a Case steam engine. What does Case do? They have their name plastered and associated with that thing everywhere, they have it in advertising, shirts, toys, catalogs, sponsored days at shows it goes to. Did they do anything but open their archives? No. Now you have people flying in from Belgium to look at something and are Case fanatics now, and they have no connection to agriculture. They just seen it online and seen the connection to CNHI and went "I'm a fan". The pride in the brand is what keeps these companies going and popular. It does something bigger though: It makes people tolerate mistakes. People will tolerate CNH making a mistake because they started out on an H, went to a 706, then a 1066 then to a 5088 then a Magnum. The family has a hundred year's worth of pride built in it and CNH turns around and helps keep and build the pride. Deere does the same. Agco doesn't because...well in a way it can't. What is a modern Massey? Is it a rebranded fendt? Does it actually have a history? A connection? I don't really know how I got here, aside from Agco can't really have pride in a brand or itself or its reputation when it keeps ending a source of pride and refusing to acknowledge it or do anything with it. I mean the only thing agco can have pride in is its dealer network, people like you, but even then...we watch family dealers that started way back selling Hart Parrs and Oliver's disappear because...Agco didn't want them but then didn't replace them. No they weren't power sellers, but they were at minimum a reminder of the brand and its past. They probably stocked parts and knowledge as well. The latter is sorely needed at the big chain dealerships, about as much as the former. If all dealers were like you, and minus a plane crash, I think Agco wouldn't be the way it is today, reputation wise. Even without dealers like you, the pile of little dealers, it wouldn't be where it is today. Long story short, after my bored qnd tired haying season ramble, Agco has a PR problem and whoever is in charge is asleep at the wheel. They have been for at least a decade. A lot of it could have simply been solved with either keeping the brands or by going "we make Agco tractors and equipment" and having a little thing like what White did, with their little heritage rainbow stripe. That would have taken a lot of heat off of them. | ||
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| GM Guy |
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NW KS/ SC ID | Turbo 8820 - 8/1/2024 08:41 Aaron SEIA - 8/1/2024 09:09 They must not be too franchise restricted. At least not on old stuff. My boy just walked into the local Massey/Fender AGCO dealer and bought a new rear main seal and pan gasket for a 1939 Allis Chalmers RC AaronSEIA My Oliver parts have to come from a dealer in the next state over. Not very convenient. I think all the heritage brands need to be franchise unlocked. Farm Equipment Headquarters I assume? | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | Finally getting time to respond a bit to this post, but honestly, I haven't wanted to. Reading your post, it's all the same thing that's been rehashed 1000 time here...there's no AGCO dealers in your area. Glad you can get old Hesston parts from your CNH dealer, all of them around here send their customers to us, and tell them they can't get them...even if it's an actual old Case tool, or even some New Holland built stuff, because they have parts guys who don't care! If you say, there are AGCO dealers, and it's a Challenger/CAT dealer turned AGCO, then you really don't have an AGCO dealer for anything other than new stuff, in my opinion. Look, I get it, AGCO needs more dealers. If any of you can point me in the direction of someone in your area who really WANTS to be a dealer, I would be more than happy to put my Dealer Development contacts onto them, as they are looking all over for dealer opportunities who will push the brands, support the product, and help AGCO grow...but if they want to hang a sign and get cheap prices for themselves, then too bad. Has AGCO's branding been clunky and changing, yep, can't argue that...but since 2011 it's been pretty solid...a core line of Global brands. MF and FENDT for North America, with FENDT getting some extra push since 2018 or so when they started expanding the line. As someone else said, they don't continue to make products that don't sell...like MF combines, Farmhand mixers and tub grinders, Glencoe tillage, etc. They also support things that grow and do well, Gleaner Combines, Hesston Inline balers, White Planters, with or without an antiquated pressure meter that can't singulate todays corn for crap unless you get perfect seed from your seed dealer, etc. In the end, I don't know that we disagree as much as you think we do, but I live in reality where we work with what we are given, and take advantage where we can, and do NOT worry about the past and how things could have been done differently. That's not helpful to anyone, customers first and foremost. If you don't like AGCO, or your dealer, it's very simple, go somewhere else. If you don't have a dealer, then don't drive 100 miles to get one unless they are worth the trip. You have never seen me tell anyone on here to buy AGCO no matter what...that is not feasible, or a smart decision. If you have a good dealer, then support them...if not, then go the CNH, or Deere, or whoever your best option is. They all build good products, the dealer is the difference in almost every case. If you think I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, OK...I don't think so, but OK. Chris | ||
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| Kochia |
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MT-ND | c_mayer - 8/5/2024 09:02 Finally getting time to respond a bit to this post, but honestly, I haven't wanted to. Reading your post, it's all the same thing that's been rehashed 1000 time here...there's no AGCO dealers in your area. Glad you can get old Hesston parts from your CNH dealer, all of them around here send their customers to us, and tell them they can't get them...even if it's an actual old Case tool, or even some New Holland built stuff, because they have parts guys who don't care! If you say, there are AGCO dealers, and it's a Challenger/CAT dealer turned AGCO, then you really don't have an AGCO dealer for anything other than new stuff, in my opinion. Look, I get it, AGCO needs more dealers. If any of you can point me in the direction of someone in your area who really WANTS to be a dealer, I would be more than happy to put my Dealer Development contacts onto them, as they are looking all over for dealer opportunities who will push the brands, support the product, and help AGCO grow...but if they want to hang a sign and get cheap prices for themselves, then too bad. Has AGCO's branding been clunky and changing, yep, can't argue that...but since 2011 it's been pretty solid...a core line of Global brands. MF and FENDT for North America, with FENDT getting some extra push since 2018 or so when they started expanding the line. As someone else said, they don't continue to make products that don't sell...like MF combines, Farmhand mixers and tub grinders, Glencoe tillage, etc. They also support things that grow and do well, Gleaner Combines, Hesston Inline balers, White Planters, with or without an antiquated pressure meter that can't singulate todays corn for crap unless you get perfect seed from your seed dealer, etc. In the end, I don't know that we disagree as much as you think we do, but I live in reality where we work with what we are given, and take advantage where we can, and do NOT worry about the past and how things could have been done differently. That's not helpful to anyone, customers first and foremost. If you don't like AGCO, or your dealer, it's very simple, go somewhere else. If you don't have a dealer, then don't drive 100 miles to get one unless they are worth the trip. You have never seen me tell anyone on here to buy AGCO no matter what...that is not feasible, or a smart decision. If you have a good dealer, then support them...if not, then go the CNH, or Deere, or whoever your best option is. They all build good products, the dealer is the difference in almost every case. If you think I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, OK...I don't think so, but OK. Chris I actually did call AGCO in the past about becoming a dealer, they told me: Full line or nothing, aka MF, Fendt, Challenger, Gleaner, etc and GSI. Minimum of 3 dealer locations from the start Minimum of 3 trucks per location, in addition to 6 mechanics at each location Minimum number of equipment sales, down to x number per brand per hp range. Minimum number of grain systems sold per year It penciled out to well over 500 million to get going, with buildings, land and all, but even if I did find a way to get that ridiculous amount of money, they said being within 300 miles of the Caterpillar ag dealer was too close. Don't think I just complain about dealers. I've called, emailed, and met with Agco about becoming one. I know if I could do one location, with the same shop requirements, I could make it work for full line Gleaner and Hesston, and parts for the rest of the line, as that was what the former dealer here had and was extremely successful with, until Agco told him he had to take on the full line and do multiple locations or get out. Challenger, MF, Fendt, even the old White and AC brands were never popular here, but those two brands were. I know of a neighbor who was a big Challenger fan, with more money than he knows what to do with, he went to Agco about becoming a dealer. He was given the same requirements and was told he was too close anyways. Virtually identical emails we got, 6 years apart. And no Chris, you can't sell the same identical thing for 10 to 40 years with little to no improvement, people want better. Agco quit putting money into every brand it killed long before it cited lack of sales. That's what I meant by the farmhand speil. Of course no one bought an agco farmhand because agco didn't put a dime in it. They sold the exact same things Farmhand Inc sold for 10 years. Agco put money into White and Allis then quit then cited lack of sales compared to the brands they put into. And no Chris, an Axial Flow doesn't work for me. We run Gleaners because they work for us, we love the machines. They do better work than red or green, that's why we still have them. Why do you think I'm hard on Agco Chris? It's because I've went to them, offered to buy 10 combines, 10 swathers, 3 sets of common wear parts for every Gleaner and Hesston model in the area upfront, put up a building on land in town, pay more than the oilfield for mechanics to get and keep mechanics, and it was agco who told me to show up with half a billion or forget about it and I'm too close anyways. That's why. I've went to them, with bankers, investors, and statements saying I can do this if you'll allow me, I've offered to be a dealer for the brands that make sense and would sell easily here. They're the ones who have said no you have to be Mr. RDO for us to even consider you. So don't think I myself haven't tried to solve the issues I complain about, because I have. | ||
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| c_mayer |
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Jeffersonville, OH | When did you talk to them, and who did you talk to? If you are 300 miles from the nearest dealer, that answer was ridiculous. Now, there was absolutely a time when the dealer development folks were protecting the Challenger dealers, and if anyone denies that in AGCO, they were in on it. I won't say a lot about them but I will say that. If you are ACTUALLY serious about wanting to help and support AGCO and want to be a dealer, then I would tell you to reach out again, because things have changed. I would be glad to facilitate that contact as well. I too do not just talk about being supportive of the brands and products, I have been here, on the front lines, for 25 years of AGCO's time as a company...and Dad has been here from day 1. We know, and knew personally those who started it all, and have left us now, and still know quite a few at AGCO that are still active...but of course, things have changed. I see all your other comments, and they are valid. Anyone who tells you it takes $500 million to be a dealership doesn't know what a real dealership is...and I would tell that to their face if I knew who they were. Chris | ||
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