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Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???
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GinNB
Posted 2/13/2009 12:02 (#607301)
Subject: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



 I need to replace a 5210C Hypro Big Twin piston pump.  The metal crankshaft parts inside have too much slack in them now.  They usually have pressure pulses that need to be damped, but now even with a liquid-filled gauge and the surge dampener in the system the needle jumps around so badly that it's almost impossible to tell what pressure it's running at.  Looks like the freeplay is causing water hammers in the system.  Anyway, this pump style and capacity works well with my sprayer and the gas-powered pump that runs it. 

 Something like the Hypro 6500C-R or the longer-lasting 6500XL-R (both the reverse rotation clockwise models because of the gas engine) would be an easy replacement to get away from the Big Twin pulsing, but I don't like the wear rates of the 6500C rollers.  Anybody have any experience with the 6500XL?  Are they worth triple the price of the 6500C and almost the price of the Hypro Big Twin?

I've thought of switching to either a centrifugal or diaphragm pump, but the flow rates of the centrifugals I've found are way too high for my sprayer (4.5 gals/min is what usually comes out of the spray tips, plumbing is mostly 1/2", and tank size is 100 gallons).  Diaphragms are nice but pretty spendy.  Also, the intake/output ports are usually up high on the pump, and as you can see from my trailer design below, a lower intake port would be nice to keep it below the bottom of the spray tank.  Any thoughts on a physically tough (cast is nice, plastic output hose barbs scare me a bit) alternative to a 6500XL or Big Twin piston design?

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=188

http://www.deindustrial.com/HYPRO-6500XL-R-PUMP-ASSY-p/6500xl-r.htm

 

 





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Adrian
Posted 2/13/2009 12:53 (#607356 - in reply to #607301)
Subject: Re: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



South Georgia
My opinion? Forget the roller pump idea. They're disposable. The XL ones are better than the rest, but they're still junk. If you're gonna pay enough money to get a good pump, you might as well have a good pump.

I don't know anything about that pump you've got there, but I'd use a centrifugal. The good thing about the centrifugal is that it's non-positive displacement, so you can throttle it back to however much flow you need, and it won't hurt anything. (As long as your hose will stand the dead-head pressure, of course.) If you're spraying something that foams bad, then you can completely turn off the agitation to the tank, to keep from making foam, and it's fine. Since you're using a gas motor, instead of running it wide open, if you wanted to, you could only run it fast enough to get whatever pressure you're needing, and save wear and tear on your motor.

Just my opinion, but for what you'd have in a XL roller pump, you can have a centrifugal, and it'll probably outlast the motor you're driving it with.

Adrian
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JohnW
Posted 2/13/2009 13:06 (#607373 - in reply to #607301)
Subject: RE: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???


NW Washington
Have you tried any of the optional rollers for the Hypro roller pumps? What kind of pressures are you spraying and is the solution hard on pumps? I think the Silver series is for pumping Roundup solutions. If a roller would work I would be getting rid of that noisy little piston pump. Repairs and overhauls of roller pumps are easy.

http://www.hypropumps.com/en-us/Products/Pumps_Summary/Roller/6500/...
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GinNB
Posted 2/13/2009 13:28 (#607403 - in reply to #607301)
Subject: RE: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



 Most of what goes through that pump is Velpar DF, a dry flowable but not what I consider a powder.  I'm assuming that it wouldn't be terribly hard on rollers, but still want to stay away from something that requires rebuilding often.  Some of the chemicals foam pretty badly (Spartan DF with Agral 90 does because the Agral is almost like adding foam marker soap to the tank), so I was hoping to stay away from a high-flow pump which would make the foaming worse.  Never thought of throttling a centrifugal pump waaaay back with a ball valve on the output side or something similar because I figured that would cause lots of foaming and/or heating too.

 I don't remember seeing any clockwise rotation centrifugal pumps though.  I'll have to look again.  It'd be quite a bit more expensive and time consuming to mount a normal bare CCW one beside the gas engine and have two shafts, 4 pillow blocks, and two pulleys to get the rotation right.  Hhhhmmm, now that I think of it, I did see some gas-powered centrifugal pumps with a gear-reducer on the pump.  Maybe there's a CW rotation version somewhere that'd work with the gear reducer on the engine?  And this might be an idea- a high-flow gear-reduced centrifugal pump mounted on a gear-reduced engine might drop the flow down to near the level I want without a ball valve on the output.  High pressure isn't needed (usually 15-30psi at the tips).

 Anybody trying to talk me into the 6500XL-R roller pump because they're cheaper, simpler, and saying that they last a long time between rebuilds or manual adjustments because of pressure dropping??

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SD-455
Posted 2/13/2009 14:23 (#607475 - in reply to #607403)
Subject: RE: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???


Northeast Indiana (Auburn)
That pump you have is used mostly for pressure washers. If you go the roller type get an eight roller XL pump. If you get the right rollers for what you are spraying they will last maybe one year.
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GinNB
Posted 2/13/2009 17:41 (#607665 - in reply to #607475)
Subject: RE: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



 Pressure washers?  Interesting.  I know it'll develop enough pressure to blow a pretty good hose (specs say it'll do 400psi).  It came as a standard pump on JB&D 3pt sprayers around these parts.  It was a pretty popular model around here. We've bought three used JB&Ds like in the picture and they all came with that pump.

 Just curious by how many running hours you mean when you say a year?  That one gets probably a minimum of 200 running hours/year, and the max might be 300-350 or so.

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Adrian
Posted 2/13/2009 18:38 (#607741 - in reply to #607403)
Subject: Re: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



South Georgia
Okay, according to Phil Jensen's catalog (by the way, thanks, Phil), the 6500 model max rpm is 1200. Your motor probably idles that fast or faster, and probably wouldn't hold a real steady rpm at idle, anyway. So, that's out. The 4101 series is the highest max rpm rating, and it's only 2600, so still probably only about half throttle. I don't see which rotation they are, and I don't see an option for a reverse rotation in this catalog, either. Still, a XL model is about $270.

We used to use roller pumps to spray herbicides at plant. One year we started adding a dry flowable micronutrient, and started going through those stupid pumps faster than you could blink. I rebuilt several of them, and they still weren't worth anything. A 'rebuild' is just new rollers, but if the 'spider' or whatever you call the part that holds the rollers, is worn, too, so the spray apparently leaks back past it. Now, I'll admit, I was using the regular cast 'cheap' roller pump, but I was only running it at 540 rpm, and it still wouldn't last but a couple of days.

Next year I bought a turbine pump (sort of like a centrifugal, but it runs at only 1000 rpm), and have had no trouble since. Used it for over a year, then finally had to put bearings in it. Only real problem was, since it's not a positive-displacement pump, it wouldn't prime. After screwing the strainer off several times to get it to prime, I drilled and tapped a 1/8 pipe thread hole in the top of the pressure side of the pump, and ran a small line back to the top of the tank, so the air can vent out of the pump. Now the spray can flow into it, and it's 'primed' before I ever turn it on.

As for foaming/heating, no problem. My Deere 6700 has a centrifugal pump, and I always switch the agitation off when the tank gets down to 100 gallons or so. As long as you 'choke' it down on the pressure side of the pump, no problem. If your bypass currently goes into the top of the tank, you may want to put it back in the bottom, to cut down on foam.

Again, looking in Phil's catalog, the model 9203 centrifugal comes in either rotation, pedestal mount, and costs either $248 or $254, depending on which way you want it to turn. Not suggesting you buy it from him, as I haven't personally bought anything from him, but I just got a catalog from him last week, and it was close at hand for reference purposes.

The only thing we've got any more with those wretched roller pumps is a hooded sprayer, and that's only because it's got two separate wet systems on it. If I knew of an easy way to drive 2 of the turbine pumps off the PTO shaft, then those two would be gone, too. (Working on an idea, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.)

Adrian

P.S. I hate roller pumps.

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GinNB
Posted 2/13/2009 18:49 (#607756 - in reply to #607741)
Subject: Re: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



 Should've been more clear- that gas engine has a 6 to 1 reducer on it, so the 3600rpm max speed is only 600rpm, so throttling down just a little gives me 540rpm for the pump.  The only tricky bit is finding a pump that'll run at 540rpm backwards (clockwise) to a normal PTO driven pump.  I'll look into your recommendations and I'm sure I remember a reference to PhilJ's website around here somewhere to get a catalog.  So tell me again- do you like roller pumps??  hehehe...
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Adrian
Posted 2/13/2009 19:07 (#607776 - in reply to #607756)
Subject: Re: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



South Georgia
Oh, I see, it should have been obvious, but I didn't realize you had a reducer. Any way you could take the reducer off? Or, buy a different motor? Heck, for that matter, you can get a close-coupled transfer pump and motor (again, referencing Phil's catalog) for only $280. I've never seen anybody use one of these on a sprayer, but I don't know why it wouldn't work, plus you get a brand new motor to go along with it. Only two drawbacks I see are max pressure of 58 psi, and it's close-coupled, so if the pump seal fails then solution will get it's way into the engine. Still, a whole new one, engine and all is the same price as a roller pump.

Anyway, those are my suggestions. Anything to stay away from a roller pump.

Let us know what you decide and how it works out.

Adrian

P.S. I think I got Phil's email address from his profile and emailed him about the catalog.
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steve c-il
Posted 2/13/2009 18:31 (#607727 - in reply to #607301)
Subject: ACE has the pump you need


Central Illinois
I am in the process or building a similar sprayer. Just purchased an ACE GE-85 centrifugal pump from Sprayer Specialties. This is a poly housing direct mount pump for gas engines with a straight 3/4 inch crankshaft. Will link to ACE web site later but this pump has plenty of flow & pressure .. Steve
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GinNB
Posted 2/13/2009 18:58 (#607766 - in reply to #607727)
Subject: RE: ACE has the pump you need



 I like the pump specs but it's made for a gas engine without a 6:1 gear reducer.  It'd be a perfect pump if I were whipping up another spray rig because the engine would be a lot cheaper.  I'll look more into the Ace pumps.  My usual suppliers handle Hypro stuff, but I'm sure I could find a fast Canadian source for Ace stuff if I looked into it.
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GinNB
Posted 2/19/2009 16:16 (#615329 - in reply to #607301)
Subject: RE: Hypro Big Twin piston pump vs 6500XL-R roller vs ???



 This thread has an update here- http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=86078&post...
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