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tnt1086

Posted 10/29/2008 22:15 (#493726)
Subject: 2+2 tractors good or bad

thinking about buying a 2+2 IH. don't see many around, wondering what flaws they had???

Tomcat

Posted 10/29/2008 22:23 (#493737 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Ludington/Manistee MI area

I have heard you want to check your pivot point - can be costly.

Rhino

Posted 10/29/2008 22:41 (#493762 - in reply to #493737)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Central Iowa

Had one pivot points went bad snaped in half and hauled to salvage yard

MN Dave 2

Posted 10/29/2008 23:50 (#493826 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: Re: 2+2 tractors good or bad

I had a 3388 for more years than I want to remember. (I know my son still has nightmares that it is coming back to the farm).

Good points:

Great on 12 row 3 point hitch equipment ... nimble in field
Had more traction than it knew what to do with (mine had 6- 18.4X38 radials)
good engine...mine had 6000+ hrs with no engine trouble
NEVER had to worry about front end coming up off of ground (my wife really appreciated that)
It was easy to cultivate curves with, the back tires would track in same track as front tires

Bad points:

Both orig hyd pumps were aluminum bodied, when they shelled out (And they did) systems were contaminated with filings. replacement pumps were cast iron bodied, but the mess was already made in system
It steered hard. Just sitting still and moving steering wheel was easy, BUT I know that my arms and shoulders would be sore at the end of the day.
Leg clearance between seat and front consul was poor.... I tried several times to break off key with my knee cap, bent key at 45 degree angle, but never broke it, except when I tried to straightened the first key, after that I left them bent.
Hyd outlets were a BUGGER to plug hyd hose tips into...... IH should have shot the engineer that came up with that idea
Resale value was terrible..... there was a reason why they are cheap, nobody can afford to keep them fixed up.

Overall, I think that it was a good concept that was very poorly done. I DON'T MISS MY OLD ONE AT ALL!!!

johns_79

Posted 10/30/2008 00:39 (#493869 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: Re: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Windom, MN

had a 3588 when I was young. I liked the tractor to ride in, but it really was a piece of crap. Cold blooded, someting about all the hydrauics running while trying to start the tractor. Blew a lot of hydraulic hoses as well. I remember shifting being a bear as well, at least on ours it was between 2nd and 3rd gear. It was a good concept in the era before MFD, but now days I'd take an older magnum with an MFD over that 2+2 any day. Ours started on fire in 1992, I cried (was like 8 years old it was my favorite tractor then) but dad wasn't sad to see that tractor go.

Mike SE IL

Posted 10/30/2008 06:24 (#493924 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

West Union, Illinois

This ought to be posted as a FAQ. Seems like every month or two someone asks about 2+2's. You might do a search of the forums on 2+2 for the last year and see what comes up. The aggravating thing about a 2+2 is if you get a good one there isn't a better tractor. And if you get a bad one nothing you do will make it any better.

But anyway, "flaws they had". The 2+2 was a lousy execution of a great concept. Part of the problem was people would buy them thinking they were getting a big frame articulated 4WD tractor. What they got was a fair to good sized front wheel assist tractor that bent in the middle.

They were like a Jeep of the same vintage, they were going to leak something someplace. Guaranteed. Generally at the most inopportune moments.

It was common to see them with duals on the rear axle. Part was traction and flotation, although usually they didn't need it unless they were turned up ... which was normal. (refer to my "big frame" comment above). The main reason for duals was stability. I drove one without duals pulling a mounted chisel plow and almost got seasick. But at least on the early ones f you put duals all the way around you had to put blocks in so it could not turn as tight. Front wheels hitting rear wheels is not a good combination. I think later models had the wheelbase stretched a bit, but I won't guarantee that.

The pivots were a weak point if not properly maintained. (ie greased AT LEAST daily)

They had the IH transmission. The tranny wasn't so bad, but shifting it could be. Driving one was likened to following a carp down the middle of a flooded road. You had to get used to the front wiggling around when you turned the wheel. And often the steering wheel did not turn as smooth as you would expect.

I think IH was finally getting the bugs worked out and making a good tractor out of them when Case took over and shut the program down. When they need worked on you want to remember this was an orphan tractor made about 20 years ago by a company that has been sold a couple times.

Edited by Mike SE IL 10/30/2008 06:31

dave morgan

Posted 10/30/2008 10:29 (#494070 - in reply to #493924)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Somerville, Indiana

Your first paragraph, Mike. Came from your last description of a 'marriage partner'. I remember.

cjcaseih

Posted 10/30/2008 10:37 (#494078 - in reply to #494070)
Subject: Re: 2+2 tractors good or bad

I owned a 3788 and worked for a farmer that had a 35 and 37, all with 5-8000 hrs. No problems with motor, grease pivot and steering cylinders twice a day, shifting was worse than 1086's if that is possible. We had front diff trouble on one that had front duals and fluid in the inside tires when we got it. As stated before they are a great row crop tractor, especially with a 11 or 13 knife NH3 applicator. They were just ahead of their time and with a little more refinement they could have started something. I sold my 3788 with 5000 hrs and 1000 hrs on a reman engine for 11000. it had great tires and interior. The guys that have 2+2's usually like em and the guys that don't, make fun of the guys that do!

cowhater

Posted 10/30/2008 12:36 (#494122 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

I had a 6788 and for the reasons already stated, I'm glad it is gone!! I liked the reference to following a carp down a flooded road, how true! Got a 8940 to replace it. Like someone on here has stated before and I agree, "the value of a 2+2 is determined by how much fuel is in the tank and how much tread is left on the tires". I think that sums it all up! But it was one pulling SOB.

dcfarms

Posted 10/30/2008 17:32 (#494211 - in reply to #494122)
Subject: Re: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Mapleton, Maine

We had 2 3588s in the 80s. From what I remember they rode good and had good power compared to the 1486 that we had as well. Had problems with tranny sticking in between F and R (would stay in forward gear.) Also the hoses in the pivot point would chafe and blow about once a year, usually when you really needed it. Was the first tractor that I worked a 12hr day in (was 10 i think at the time). We traded them both on 2 7120s in '91 or '92 and dont miss them a bit. Get a 71 or 72 series Magnum, you'll be a lot better off.

oopscdaz

Posted 10/30/2008 19:43 (#494254 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: I had 2 of them

Central Illinois

In one year.The first one went back to the shop on the first day of planting and came back the last day of planting....It left
Dealer convinced me to try another during harvest. It was in the shop the first day of harvest and came back the last day of harvest..It Left too
They didn't steer straight so you could kind of pet the nose while going through the fields.
When Case took over the IH division, they dropped them promptly. Never knew anyone who had success with them

NEMOScott

Posted 10/30/2008 21:13 (#494330 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Callao, Missouri

I just bought a 3588. Probably read 50 pages on them in the archives of red power magazine and here at newagtalk.

In our modern world, the 2+2 is a transition machine. This means that you really want a Magnum but can only afford an old international. Now you know why I bought the tractor.

3588's had all the problems of the 1486, and some additional ones. The toughest one for me to get used to is the dang doors that open backwards and the range lever that is in the way. I think that in the 3 or 4 weeks I've owned it, about everyone around here has almost fallen out of it. The machine is prone to ta problems, pivot problems, front axle problems, hood problems, wiring problems, and abuse problems. Abuse meaning that the people who owned it before you put a little too much steel in the ground behind it. Now.....none of use would be guilty of that, would we?

I bought mine to do what a 2wd 150hp tractor would normally do in a dry year. I really got tired of waiting for someone to come pull me out of the wet spots this year. No worries with the 3588.

I'd like to sell this one now and buy a 6788. I'd like to have the biggest pile of (fill in here) that IH made at that time. If I find a 67, this one will be for sale again.

Search the archives. You will find quite a bit of information.

Scott

Mike SE IL

Posted 10/30/2008 22:09 (#494403 - in reply to #494330)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

West Union, Illinois

NEMOScott - I bought mine to do what a 2wd 150hp tractor would normally do in a dry year. I really got tired of waiting for someone to come pull me out of the wet spots this year. No worries with the 3588.

And that is what a 2+2 was designed to do, be treated like a 150 hp tractor. If a guy is moldboard plowing, a 35/37 with a semi-mounted 720 5 bottom is the finest thing you were ever on when it gets muddy. It will almost walk on water. But when you get stuck you are REALLY stuck.

I have a love/hate realtionship with the 2+2. I love the concept, I just hate how IH did it.

NEMOScott

Posted 10/30/2008 22:51 (#494439 - in reply to #494403)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Callao, Missouri

Typical of IH as far as I'm concerned. I now have an CIH planter, CIH combine, and this tractor. All of these machines have ideas or innovations that really put them ahead of everyone else, but then they messed the entire machine up with a lack of finish. I've took shields/covers off, and can't get the bolt holes to line back up, have had trim fall off unexpectantly, fiddled with combine head latches (until Jon built a custom latch), and dealt with crude welding/assembly practices on each of the machines.

John Deere seems to be the exact opposite, the new ideas are few and far between, but when they turn something loose, it's a better finish. The cab in our 1660 vs. a 9500 is a noticable difference.

Someone in IH thought up some pretty cool stuff. Who messed it all up? Like the 60hp front axle under my 3588? Or the poor spreading/clumping on the back of the 1660? Simple stuff like that should have been corrected.

frmrzdotr

Posted 10/30/2008 22:11 (#494406 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: Re: 2+2 tractors good or bad

RUN!!! My uncle was nearly killed when his brand new [leased] anteater went afire. It burned down to a pile of rust and rims in nothing flat, and the regional guys from IH came in by nightfall from 165 miles away, winched the P.O.S. onto a flat deck truck, waited until 2 a.m. and took off in the dark with their tails between their legs, politely asking me to "be quiet". Uncle lived to tell about it, but never ever bought anything red after that. Fire was caused [guess] by a leak in the pivot joint, oil got hot, rubber bellows lit up, and the rest, as they say, is history. RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NEMOScott

Posted 10/30/2008 22:34 (#494424 - in reply to #494406)
Subject: Re: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Callao, Missouri

Well, we have burned down a 7700 ford tractor, a heston baler, and almost a jd4400 combine. The pivot point burning would be the last thing that would concern me. There isn't really anything there to burn that wouldn't be on a normal tractor, except the hoses do flex and can rub on each other or the various frames. Although if mine did catch on fire there, I'd probably fall out those backwards doors and break my leg.

Bluepaint

Posted 10/30/2008 23:35 (#494490 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Manitoba canada

I've always fancied one as more of a toy than a workhorse just for light work ,Harrow packing,Super harrowing,Little bit of scraping.
I've seen all the disasters but i still find them interesting...What are the motors 436/466....?????

davpal

Posted 10/31/2008 01:04 (#494543 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Mid Michigan

I think if a guy is just looking for a 4wd to do some odds and ends and tillage work a guy could get an old Versatile, Steiger, Case, or even a White 4-210 for about the same money. I like the look of the 2+2 but I have heard they handle a little funny because you are behind the pivot point. The appeal of the cheap 4wd appeals to many people but boy do they have a lot of upkeep if you want them to be reliable. They live a very hard life and most of them tractors were used when people did very hard tillage and all fields were plowed and disked every year so they got used up. I have been watching this Case on Ebay this week. Not to far from my house actually. Lot of tractor for the money but a lot of problems for the money too! $3000 dollars opening bid or $4500 buy it now. Nobody wants the old girl so far. Item no. 230303366827 And NO it isn't mine! I just watch them sell sometimes.

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cowhater

Posted 11/1/2008 21:11 (#495650 - in reply to #494543)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

If this case is a rigid frame with steerable axles that have electric sensors on them for crab steer and other steering options, be VERY, VERY, VERY CAREFUL. A neighboring farmer about 8 years ago had one and it nearly killed him. He was between the rear wheel and frame while tractor was running and for whatever reason, the rear wheels turned and crushed him against the frame. His son tried the steering wheel but would not respond. He had to use his knife to puncture the tire to get his dad out. Crushed his chest and can't remember what organs. Almost didn't make it. Long recovery. That tractor didn't stay around after that. Can't say that I know of any other rigid frames around.

RodInNS

Posted 10/31/2008 09:03 (#494699 - in reply to #493726)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

I never had one... but there was one around that I'm familiar with (3588). The owners had quite a bit of trouble with the T/A and then the PTO clutch which traced back to pressure problems and the pump. By the time they got all that stuff fixed they retired.
It's also had a couple of major's on the 466, the first (I suspect from being cranked to about the top spec of a 466) and worked hard, and the second as a result of a cooking from a crushed rad hose. A fella could hardly blame that on IH....
I don't think they had any of the steering or articulation joint problems mentioned but that tractor wasn't used heavy on drawbar work. Most of what they did was chop silage and drag a manure spreader, neither of which particularly challenged that tractor on the drawbar.
One thing that always impressed me with it was it's ability to PULL. Where everyone else would use their type gear on level ground, they hauled it up and down 15% grades or through mud. Ole bugger had the power to chop and not slow down on the grade. She just blew a bit more smoke...

The way I see an ardvark today... it's just big stupid power. There are problems. You know there are problems... but if you buy it cheap enough.... well... you gamble. If you had the money you'd buy a Magnum or Genesis... or one of those green things.

Rod

adam1206

Posted 10/31/2008 09:52 (#494738 - in reply to #494699)
Subject: RE: 2+2 tractors good or bad

Everyone says T/A problems like its specific to the 2+2's I love my 1206 but the T/A handle left it the day it was unloaded at the farm the T/A was great on the M when it came out but I'vee never seen one hold up on anything higher than 100 horses

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