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Angus8335

Posted 3/28/2017 20:19 (#5929025)
Subject: C 9 Cat power problems

Galena IL

First I want to thank seedcleaner and 4WD for getting me running last fall,( bad fuel relief value). Now I have a new problem, it starts and runs OK, will rev up to 2000 rpm's but as soon as I try to push dirt it pulls down to about 1100 rpm's and moves real slow. I changed fuel filters, put a gauge on the fuel line going in to the engine it reads 75 psi if the engine is idling or at 2000 rpm's, load or no load. It's like the computer is not giving it fuel. Could I have a bad turbo boost sensor ? What else do I need to check? I can guess at parts several times and still have less invested than one Caterpillar service call. any ideas ? TIA ... Dennis

4WD

Posted 3/28/2017 20:53 (#5929146 - in reply to #5929025)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

Angus8335 - 3/28/2017 20:19 First I want to thank seedcleaner and 4WD for getting me running last fall,( bad fuel relief value). Now I have a new problem, it starts and runs OK, will rev up to 2000 rpm's but as soon as I try to push dirt it pulls down to about 1100 rpm's and moves real slow. I changed fuel filters, put a gauge on the fuel line going in to the engine it reads 75 psi if the engine is idling or at 2000 rpm's, load or no load. It's like the computer is not giving it fuel. Could I have a bad turbo boost sensor ? What else do I need to check? I can guess at parts several times and still have less invested than one Caterpillar service call. any ideas ? TIA ... Dennis

Here's the previous thread:

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=671267&mid=5658484#M5658484

A: Did you hear any "misfires" or any "injectors cutting out", while pulling down to 1100 rpms?

B: Is there anything on a CAT dozer dash that shows any thing like fault codes or Trouble codes? (never worked on any newer Heavy Equipment = I have no idea, about how much info CAT gives the operator)

C: There are 2 types of C9 HEUI engines, so without a picture of your engine (left side), I don't know which style of HEUI pump, you are working with. ( I believe, CAT engineers called them the HEP 8 and HEP10 designs)

Edit: D: Fuel pressure sounds fine, assuming it is plumbed after any fuel filters, or at cylinder head. {Note: Don't have much experiences, on C9 engines, did most work on C7s, in school buses}

I found some pictures/diagrams, on another site, and copied them. It shows some sensors, but these are for the later HEP 10 design{HEUI pump with electrical plug in very top housing}

Edited by 4WD 3/28/2017 21:08

(C9 top view_sensors.png)

(C9 left side sensor.png)

(C9 left side sensor view.gif)

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C9 top view_sensors.png (76KB - 1794 downloads)
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C9 left side sensor.png (72KB - 1608 downloads)
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C9 left side sensor view.gif (102KB - 1188 downloads)

Angus8335

Posted 3/28/2017 21:13 (#5929206 - in reply to #5929146)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Galena IL

Thanks 4wd. no codes flashed up. no excessive smoke, didn't hear any miss, new injectors last summer. I can have my son take a picture in the morning ... Dennis

4WD

Posted 3/28/2017 21:42 (#5929301 - in reply to #5929206)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

I looked at old thread, and you mentioned 2007, so I'm going to assume it is the later design (HEP 10).

You could try a new boost sensor, but it would be nice to know if that sensor has "3 wires" going to it. {If so, it will probably be on a 5 volt circuit, thus "A" pin will supply the 5 volts, "B" pin will be sensor common(think of this as a ground) and finally the "C" pin would be the "SIGNAL wire" going back to CAT's engine ECM}

You could, at least, take a volt meter (multimeter) and with the boost sensor, "Unplugged"; then measure [at wiring loom's connector] from pin "A" to pin "B" and see if you have 5 volts, with key switch in the "ON" position.(before buying a new boost sensor)

Next, you could also measure, pin "B" to pin "C" (on wire loom connector) and see if you get any kind of voltage (Key ON). Note: voltage may be weird, but if you get any voltage reading at all, it somewhat tells me the wiring loom, on that wire for "C" pin is probably ok, going back to ECM. Now, If you don't get any voltage readings, what-so-ever; then really look over that wiring loom for "rub spots" or "wear spots".

seedcleaner

Posted 3/28/2017 22:40 (#5929484 - in reply to #5929025)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Mid-Missouri

Hmm, too bad you're having trouble. Is it possible the pressure relief valve is bad, even though you just replaced it?

Air filter clean?

twraska

Posted 3/28/2017 23:18 (#5929533 - in reply to #5929025)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Wallis, TX

Temp gauge working correctly? My D-6R will derate if the engine is hot (or ECM thinks the engine is too hot).

Offroadnt

Posted 3/29/2017 07:40 (#5929852 - in reply to #5929025)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Southern Alberta Canada

I had a very similar problem with our 466 (also HEUI fuel system) and it turned out the HPOP was failing, replaced it with a used unit and it runs fine now. It did set a code for something like "injector oil pressure above/below demand pressure" though. Do your check engine lights cycle at startup? Maybe the bulb is burnt out?

billy_bob126

Posted 3/29/2017 08:48 (#5929971 - in reply to #5929025)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Wabash, IN

Is it lazy on throttle response? If you have fuel pressure to the head like other posters have indicated, and no fault codes, my bet would be that the HEUI pump is on its way out. Oddly though, if it is that, usually they start a little harder. Without a laptop connected, that is hard to diagnose. Lazy throttle response usually will accompany low power. I have seen them start OK and run fair, though they usually don't sound quite as healthy. There are a number of tests to try, but you will need to plumb a gauge in to the HEUI pump circuit, and then use a multimeter inline with the electric to the HEUI pump to diagnose it.

Another thought, since you mentioned recent injectors. 1.) Are you sure that you are not leaking HUEI oil off of one of the orings on the injectors? This can be checked by taking the valve cover off and inspecting for spraying oil by the base of the injectors while cranking. Again, there is a procedure for this. If memory serves, remove the HEUI oil pressure sensor and plug the hole, or install a gauge (gauge would be best as you can use this for further diagnostics). Plug the sensor back in, but now it is just going to read 0 to the ECM(no faults this way). Crank engine, it should not fire, but you will see the pressure rise pretty high on the gauge and you should see oil leaking at that time if you have a bad o-ring. You will want a minimum of a 6000psi gauge in there, and don't push it past that pressure while cranking the engine.

If no oil is leaking under the valve cover, but you do not build to at least 4000psi, the next check is the amperage to the HEUI pump solenoid. I can't remember which wire it is, but the amperage varies from nothing to 99 milliamps, or just under 1 amp. If, while cranking the engine, you do not see it rise to 99, the problem lies somewhere else. Bear in mind these tests assume that the pressure sensor is operational. If the sensor is bad, none of these test will be productive.

You could have something as simple as a bad atmospheric pressure sensor. That sensor is the reference for all other sensors. Does the oil pressure read 15 PSI lower than it used to?

Another thing I have seen, though usually with fault codes, is that the ECM will lose its FLS FTS settings. Those settings are critical for fuel delivery, if they are gone, the engine will still seem to run fine, but it will be severely underpowered.

Another thought, injectors were replaced, did the trim files get changed at that time? I haven't seen them cause a big power issue, but that certainly would not help your cause. 2007 should be the newer of the HEUI engines, and that would make it a TierIII, ACERT engine.

Like I said earlier, a laptop with Cat ET is about the best way to diagnose. There are a number of tests and diagnostics that can be looked at, so an accurate diagnosis is much easier.

I have some experience on C9's, but it was always in an agricultural tractor or combine, so I am not that familiar with the dozer, unsure of what can be monitored on the engine in a dozer compared to a tractor.

This is all just from observation of your thread, take it for what its worth.

Angus8335

Posted 3/29/2017 13:24 (#5930428 - in reply to #5929971)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Galena IL

Thank you all for your help so far. We removed the valve cover. It is sluggish to respond. Is the HUE pump circuit plug on top of the HUE pump, if so, that looks to be held with a snap ring. What is a multimeter inline? We have a multimeter with red and black prongs but I don't know if it is inline?

Angus8335

Posted 3/29/2017 18:47 (#5931014 - in reply to #5930428)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Galena IL

Hi my next idea is to get a IPR valve from Cat tomorrow unless someone has a better plan. Thanks.... Dennis

4WD

Posted 3/29/2017 19:05 (#5931056 - in reply to #5931014)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

Angus8335 - 3/29/2017 18:47 Hi my next idea is to get a IPR valve from Cat tomorrow unless someone has a better plan. Thanks.... Dennis

What is a IPR valve ????

If you have this style of HEUI pump(2 wire connector on very top housing), there isn't anything to replace, other than the very rear fuel transfer pump. (That style of pump is consider "unserviceable") = you replace the whole unit.

Your problem does bring up the question: "Why did ALL injectors get changed?"

{note: Copy and paste from earlier post: no codes flashed up. no excessive smoke, didn't hear any miss, new injectors last summer}

Did your mechanic, check for metal shavings, in oil and on HEUI pump's internal coil, before changing ALL injectors? (There is a special procedure to follow, on these HEP 10 style HEUI pumps; to look for debris, FIRST, before throwing parts at this fuel system)

Angus8335

Posted 3/29/2017 20:40 (#5931354 - in reply to #5931056)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Galena IL

A guy that works on truck engines said that fitting with the two wires coming out of it on the top of the HEUI pump was a IPR. He said it looked just like what is on the 7.3's.
The the injectors where all changed by Altofer's last year when it would only rev to 1700, they also replaced the HEUI pump at that time. Took them 4 trips and I had a bill for over $10,000 and still did not have a Cat running. I couldn't handle any more bills. That is when I ask on agtalk and you and seedcleaner told me to replace the pressure re leaf value on the back of the engine. Put a new P R value on and it worked like new every time I used it until the other day. I think I may as well guess at what is wrong as pay them $125 / hour and people on agtalk seen too know more. It would be helpful to hook the computer to it but the service call alone is over $600. Whet to the local Cat truck shop but they said that they can't work on industrial. My number is 815 777 0614 if you want to call me. Thank You Dennis

4WD

Posted 3/29/2017 22:01 (#5931702 - in reply to #5931354)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

Angus8335 - 3/29/2017 20:40 A guy that works on truck engines said that fitting with the two wires coming out of it on the top of the HEUI pump was a IPR. He said it looked just like what is on the 7.3's. The the injectors where all changed by Altofer's last year when it would only rev to 1700, they also replaced the HEUI pump at that time. Took them 4 trips and I had a bill for over $10,000 and still did not have a Cat running. I couldn't handle any more bills. That is when I ask on agtalk and you and seedcleaner told me to replace the pressure re leaf value on the back of the engine. Put a new P R value on and it worked like new every time I used it until the other day. I think I may as well guess at what is wrong as pay them $125 / hour and people on agtalk seen too know more. It would be helpful to hook the computer to it but the service call alone is over $600. Whet to the local Cat truck shop but they said that they can't work on industrial. My number is 815 777 0614 if you want to call me. Thank You Dennis

Well, that is good to hear, that they replaced the HEUI pump at the same time = at least if any metal was coming from a flaky bearing, inside that original HEUI pump, then it shouldn't be an issue, of putting any additional metal (if it was flaking to begin with) into your newer 6 injectors.

That's sad to hear, that it took them 4 trips. It makes me wonder if they even bring a few common parts, with them, on the very first trip (Assuming you gave them the serial number when you first called their service dept., so they could "pre-order' some "possible parts" and bring with, on first trip) Honestly, fuel pressure is typically one of the very first items to check during about 90% of all engine complaints, that involve low power or misfire.

Unless, something has changed, for CAT parts; those later C7 and C9 HEUI pumps are non-serviceable on their inside pieces.(=Can't buy individual parts)

(inside top cover of HEUI pump.jpg)

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inside top cover of HEUI pump.jpg (28KB - 933 downloads)

Angus8335

Posted 3/29/2017 10:27 (#5930130 - in reply to #5929025)
Subject: RE: C 9 Cat power problems

Galena IL

Ok thanks guys. I have a 3 prong sensor plug, have 5 volts, on one, when I go to the 3rd pin it bounces from .5 to 19. So I will maybe pull the value covers and look for oil leak. thanks Dennis

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