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How bad are International Maxxforce???
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seedcleaner
Posted 1/24/2017 15:32 (#5791148)
Subject: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Mid-Missouri		Based on past R.B. auction results, these trucks are bringing +- 15,000.

Seems like they would be worth a gamble with there engine. Any other weak points on these models?
What is wrong with the engines?

https://www.rbauction.com/2014-INTERNATIONAL-PROSTAR-Sleeper?invId=9...








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1070
Posted 1/24/2017 15:43 (#5791173 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


south west in		Local feed mill tried to give one to a employee and he turned it down. They cannot keep it out of the shop. I think its a 14 year also.
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hankster
Posted 1/24/2017 15:51 (#5791184 - in reply to #5791173)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Seedcleaner,just google international maxxforce engine lawsuits and decide from there
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seedcleaner
Posted 1/24/2017 15:58 (#5791196 - in reply to #5791184)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Mid-Missouri		I've done about zero research, but have heard almost. nothing but bad about them here on NAT. Either way, a 2014 with 400,000 miles must run most of the time.

This would be a truck from field to bin, from bin to elevator. Maybe 10,000 miles a year or a little more. Currently have 3 volvo day cabs with n14 and the engines are not trouble free, nor are the trucks, as they are 18 years old and always have some issues...to be expected.

These seem like a bargain that might be worth a gamble. Ideally, a good used day cab Paccar loaded out would be better, but it would easily be 3x the money of these.

Edited by seedcleaner 1/24/2017 15:58
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trebfms
Posted 1/24/2017 16:14 (#5791226 - in reply to #5791196)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Central Wisconsin

I have been thinking the same way BUT.  I don't think I would want to mess with the MF. But with as many out there going for little money you would think some one would come up with a kit. Pull the Max Force out. Put a good rebuilt pre 2004 engine in. A cheap IH with low miles could be used as a glider



Edited by trebfms 1/24/2017 16:23
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jcfarmboy
Posted 1/24/2017 16:18 (#5791232 - in reply to #5791196)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???



South Western Ontario, Canada
seedcleaner - 1/24/2017 16:58

I've done about zero research, but have heard almost. nothing but bad about them here on NAT. Either way, a 2014 with 400,000 miles must run most of the time.

This would be a truck from field to bin, from bin to elevator. Maybe 10,000 miles a year or a little more. Currently have 3 volvo day cabs with n14 and the engines are not trouble free, nor are the trucks, as they are 18 years old and always have some issues...to be expected.

These seem like a bargain that might be worth a gamble. Ideally, a good used day cab Paccar loaded out would be better, but it would easily be 3x the money of these.






If you think it's a good idea......go for it! Honestly, don't come back and complain about how piss poor they Are! Your old trucks will look like best trucks on the road after you buy the crapforce.

You get what you pay for....
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cottonhauler
Posted 1/24/2017 16:36 (#5791269 - in reply to #5791232)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Zabcikville, TX		From what I read here, and limited experience, don't even consider a Maxxforce engine. My experience being, my boss bought another trailer in 2013. Rented a day cab with that engine. I broke down twice during harvest. 2014, goes to the same place to rent a truck, again, for harvest only as he owns 1 truck. Guess what??? Engine trouble again. Different truck, same engine. I don't want to drive one, much less, own one. The truck is a good truck, the engine is scrap iron.
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Takn4aFool
Posted 1/24/2017 17:27 (#5791374 - in reply to #5791196)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


doesnt really mean it ran that much...if it's a '14 it could have come out in '13...and since the '18's are out already it could technically be 5 years old meaning just 80K miles a year
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Jon
Posted 1/24/2017 16:33 (#5791261 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???



Callao Missouri		It's my understanding that it's not the engine so much as the emissions stuff causing the problems. But over the road guys can't delete & be legal. Maybe worth a shot, delete it running them. Far as I know the rest of truck is OK. Supposably someone is making a wire harness & kit to put n14 in their place. Jon
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riverrat08
Posted 1/24/2017 16:50 (#5791293 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Southeast iowa		These engines make the ford 6.0 look bulletproof I work for the dot and help farm after work we always have one broke down a lot of them with less than 1800 hours on them I would run
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westkickapoo
Posted 1/24/2017 17:00 (#5791309 - in reply to #5791293)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


I got one and love it . I've heard lately that the ISX is haveing more problems then the Maxxforce . Search AuctionTime they're dirt cheap
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Takn4aFool
Posted 1/24/2017 17:34 (#5791391 - in reply to #5791309)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


had a MaxxForce and now drive one with a Cummins...so far the Cummins has been bullet proof with 127K miles on it...hasnt even thrown a check engine code yet.
Laxxforce went though 3 sets of EGR coolers and a air compressor pump at 320K miles and the company decided enough is enough and got rid of it.
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olwhda
Posted 1/24/2017 17:03 (#5791320 - in reply to #5791293)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Liberty, MO		I have talked to a few drivers driving big fleet owned trucks, and they tell me they are a gutless wonder, won't pull your hat off your head. Haven't heard about fuel mileage though. They really backup the saying 13 letter ---- spreader. What is a wrecker going to charge you taking it to the dealer when it quits.

Edit you won't want a tall sleeper for a farm truck, combine and auger wagon spouts and tall sleepers , don't work very well.

Edited by olwhda 1/24/2017 17:46
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jeff gordon
Posted 1/24/2017 17:03 (#5791317 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???



Mather, Manitoba		Ya their bad. Buddy is the head engine mechanic at Maxim in Regina. He says they have poorly casted blocks. Their porous around #5 and #6. Problematic right from new.
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CaseIH7240
Posted 1/24/2017 17:22 (#5791360 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Ohio		If you have 15k to throw away then buy one. Other than that it's not if they break down, it's a matter of WHEN, and how much will it cost to fix and who will even work on it.
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BFarm
Posted 1/24/2017 17:49 (#5791425 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


WCIL		When we were looking at some Prostars with MF engines at a fleet's for sale lot, the salesman and shop manager said not to buy one! Pretty good testimony if they steer you away. And no, they weren't trying to steer us to something higher priced either. Ended up buying one with a C13 sitting next to them so we could deal with its emissions issues. LOL. Actually been minor so far.
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heartlandfarmer
Posted 1/24/2017 17:57 (#5791445 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


NC ia		Turn around and run away... the company's I have all worked for quit buying internationals because of them. Everyone basically buys frieght liners or kenworths now
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Mitchco
Posted 1/24/2017 18:20 (#5791499 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


SW OH		I don't know how much of the Maxxforce engine is a Navistar product, but the some of the castings, block, head, crank, not sure what else, is CAT. CAT got out of the on road engine business when tier 4 or final 4 started. CAT leased their engine casting molds to Navistar, C 13s only I think. Navistar was paying the EPA a penalty of something like $2,000 per engine for failing to meet the emissions standards. So a Maxxforce engine is basiclly a CAT made entirely by Navistar.

Remember Navistar is the company who gave us the 6.0 liter and then even more popular 6.4 liter diesels found in Ford trucks.

Mitchco
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jmiller
Posted 1/25/2017 00:30 (#5792423 - in reply to #5791499)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


West central Ohio		I know the base engine for at least some of the Maxxfarce is a MAN. Good engine. International added all of their pollution controls and made it a real screw up. Don't know of a good fix or delete for it. One shop here is doing deletes for $10-12,000. So far so good. They said it is difficult to put another engine in them and the wiring is the main issue. If you run them as is and breaks down, you're looking at $15-16000. Surely somebody has a fix. Some of the Ritchie Auction employees said a lot of them are being bought by brokers to send to Mexico. They must have a fix.
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lferris537
Posted 1/25/2017 06:34 (#5792532 - in reply to #5791499)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


West Central Indiana		Is that true for all MF13 engines? I thought only the rare Cat branded trucks had any Cat engine components.
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durallymax
Posted 1/25/2017 15:10 (#5793601 - in reply to #5791499)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Wi
Mitchco - 1/24/2017 18:20

I don't know how much of the Maxxforce engine is a Navistar product, but the some of the castings, block, head, crank, not sure what else, is CAT. CAT got out of the on road engine business when tier 4 or final 4 started. CAT leased their engine casting molds to Navistar, C 13s only I think. Navistar was paying the EPA a penalty of something like $2,000 per engine for failing to meet the emissions standards. So a Maxxforce engine is basiclly a CAT made entirely by Navistar.

Remember Navistar is the company who gave us the 6.0 liter and then even more popular 6.4 liter diesels found in Ford trucks.

Mitchco


The MF13 started with a MAN D20, popular decent engine in Europe. They licensed parts of it to Navistar. Navistar did all of the casting/forging/assembly then put their fuel, air and afterteeatment systems on it. It was a disaster, massive EGR cooler, tiny conpound turbos, complex/cramped to work on, no compression brake, an all around steaming pile of crap. Eventually they abandoned EGR only and installed an SCR system from Cummins. I could've sworn they also added the Cummins/Scania based injection system but cannot find that info so I could be wrong. Even with the improved engine with SCR and compression brake, 73% of Navistar Class 8 trucks sold in 2016 had Cummins engines.

The CT13 offered in Cat trucks brief stint was the same engine.

The MF15 is the same scenario as the MF13 except it uses the lower end from a C15 Cat. Navistar eventually abandoned it and started offering the ISX instead.

VW now owns a portion of Navistar, they have mentioned their intentions to improve the engines. With VW owning Scania and MAN that may be possible, but the maxxforce left a big mark.
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trebfms
Posted 1/25/2017 17:10 (#5793801 - in reply to #5793601)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Central Wisconsin

Durallymax

 

That is the same as what I remember hearing too. Not sure where the C13 stuff that Mitchco was talking about came from

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Gerard
Posted 1/24/2017 18:35 (#5791539 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???



Woodham, Ontario		I had a 2012 Maxxforce13 in a feedtruck. Didn't drive a lot of miles with it, but too much idling, some hard work, gets reved up high to clean out the mixer. Put 7000 hours on it before deciding to trade it and took about 6 months for the new truck to be ordered and TMR mixer put on (ours got pushed back when someone needed their immediately. So it had 8000 hours on it when it left. It had a check engine light on for most of it's life here. EGR coolers were cleaned or replaced twice under warranty and we spent about $8,000 to service it out of emissions warranty. The way the engine is designed you will have to keep dealing with EGR issues as long as you own it. Looked at deleting it, but that is very expensive too and might make it harder to trade in. Later found out that they can't fully delete them yet and they would overfuel them trying to regen. The fuel pump is a big weak spot on these trucks, it failed twice, had to get towed in both times. $$$ Truck is always full of feed when it broke down.

Anyway, decided to look at trading and was pleasantly surprised at the difference and now we have a 2017 Western Star and it is a much better truck in every way!

We had a local shop that was affiliated with a bigger International Dealer so they could do warranty work and they were fantastic to work with. They understood that we need the feedtruck every day and they would come out if needed and they didn't always need a Credit card before doing any work like the big city dealers...
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tommyw-5088
Posted 1/24/2017 19:43 (#5791764 - in reply to #5791539)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Texas		You cant afford to own it ,if it was free
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oldtiger
Posted 1/24/2017 20:34 (#5791941 - in reply to #5791539)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


NEMO		Talked to a guy that had one...nothing but bad. Was going to cost a lot to delete it, and he had lost faith in it and traded. He said that they bought a laptop and the software to be able to clear the codes, because it would derate or shut down, that way they could get it going again. He said they owned it somewhere over 70000 miles, and logged 12000 running back and forth to the shop. The soft market on them should be telling you something
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lferris537
Posted 1/25/2017 06:32 (#5792529 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


West Central Indiana		Navistar's current financial status is a direct reflection of their product quality (mainly engine). Navistar was driven to financial ruin, almost to bankruptcy, hence the recent partial acquisition by VW. Most of this was caused by their ex-CEO's stubbornness to using DEF and trying to utilize in-cylinder NOx reduction......we tried as well, but it doesn't work! The last time I was up at their nearly billion dollar corporate headquarters it was a ghost town. Parts of their campus were being rented out and most the entrances were closed because they couldn't afford security personnel to staff them! I think they're starting to rebound a little, but that engine nearly did them in.
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TTaylor
Posted 1/25/2017 07:29 (#5792644 - in reply to #5791148)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Mccune KS		Watch the corporate video on the engine.
You would think its the greatest engine ever.

Classic example of being in to deep and no turning back.

I think they leaned to hard on technology
for there answers.
Drawing that line of what works in theory
to close to reality and reality won.

They had to know at some point through
testing this was a really bad idea.

This world sometimes doesn't make any sense.
Anyone half way normal wouldn't risk reputation.


In today's tech does it really take that much $$$$
to research a engine.

Maybe they can save it in someway.
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lferris537
Posted 1/25/2017 07:41 (#5792668 - in reply to #5792644)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


West Central Indiana		We (Cummins) spend an asinine amount on testing at every level, but it is all recouped with warranty savings. Customer downtime and brand dependability are the two biggest drivers for product reliability/quality for us. Getting the systems to meet EPA regulations is extremely challenging, but it can be done. Navistar's biggest issue was their leadership and his stubbornness to adapt new technology. We as a company tried, and tried, and tried to get them to go with DEF in 2010, but they wouldn't do it and dropped Cummins all together at that point.
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Claymore
Posted 1/25/2017 09:55 (#5792947 - in reply to #5792668)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


Most buyers of diesel engines would like to see a rollback to tier 3, although there is little talk of it.  How would a rollback to tier 3 effect a large diesel engine manufacturer?

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lferris537
Posted 1/25/2017 09:59 (#5792956 - in reply to #5792947)
Subject: RE: How bad are International Maxxforce???


West Central Indiana		It would be somewhat of a sizeable change. We still build other engines that are tier 3, but to keep up with demand we'd need to re-tool and validate/PPAP all the manufacturing lines. Add suppliers for the additional workload, etc. I bet it'd be a 3 year process just to go back.

Another big impact would be employment. We have a ton of engineers that deal solely with EPA/Euro emissions stuff, me being one of them....I'd probably be looking for a new job!
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