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How to tighten disc gangs?
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tmellfam
Posted 5/17/2008 09:08 (#379806)
Subject: How to tighten disc gangs?


We had to replace a few blades and we can't get the gangs as tight as they should be,still a little side to side play on a couple of the blades.we use a large wrench and pipe to turn the nut on the end of the axle but the whole axle wants to turn.How do you keep the axle from turning while tightening the not on the end?
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Ed Boysun
Posted 5/17/2008 09:15 (#379807 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?



Agent Orange: Friendly fire that keeps on burning.
Find a big sledge hammer and someone to run it while the smart guy is reefing on the wrench. Instruct the hammer engineer to smack the head end of the gang bolt while the smart guy is pulling on the wrench. Every time the hammer hits, you'll notice the wrench will turn easy for a ways. Repeat as needed until the wrench no longer moves when the not so bright guy beats on things with the hammer.
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plowboy
Posted 5/17/2008 09:15 (#379810 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?



Brazilton KS
Hold the other end of the gang bolt, if absolutely necessary.


If you use an impact wrench I'd say 95% of the time there is no need to.
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cotman
Posted 5/17/2008 09:25 (#379813 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?



NW Tennessee
After beating and banging on disc axles and nuts all my life, we finally started using a 3/4 drive impact wrench a few years ago. A heck of a lot easier, and in our experience stay tighter longer. But it takes a good compressor!
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Mark in Iowa
Posted 5/17/2008 11:08 (#379849 - in reply to #379813)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?


Yep. If you dont have the right one, go borrow one from a neighbor.
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msb
Posted 5/17/2008 09:30 (#379816 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?


Lapel, In
Use a really big pipe wrench and beat on the pipe wrench handle.
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SEK Farmer
Posted 5/17/2008 09:39 (#379823 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?


Southeastern Kansas
If only a few are still loose, is there a chance the square bar is notched from running loose thus causing the blade to get hung up in the notch and not slide when tightening the nut.
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Mike SE IL
Posted 5/17/2008 14:04 (#379905 - in reply to #379823)
Subject: Several possibilities, but ck what Frank and Byron said ...



West Union, Illinois

SEK Farmer - If only a few are still loose, is there a chance the square bar is notched from running loose thus causing the blade to get hung up in the notch and not slide when tightening the nut.
You might have a round arbor bolt instead of square, but the principal still applies. It may require taking the hand grinder to the bolt and smoothing off the rough spots.  And yes, if it is worn bad enough you may have to replace the arbor bolt.

Also, are the disk blades you are replacing the same exact thickness as the old ones?

boog - I loosen the standards before tightening. This allows for even tightening across the length of the arbor bolt
This is another possibility, especially if the blades were ran loose or the thickness changed.  Also, check the spools for wear.  If they are worn it will throw off the whole thing.

Here is an odd possibility.  Are the new and old blades all flat or concave in the center?  For instance IH blades have a flat center, while I believe some other mfg have a curved surface.  If you have mixed one with the other things won't match.

Did you replace any spools?  If so, are you sure they are correct?  For example, if you have an IH 490 with 9" spacing and replace a spool with one made for a 7 1/2" space .. the technical term is screwed.

I've replaced or helped replace a lot of blades over the last 40 years (40 years?  Can I possibly be that old?).  I've seen everything from improperly made blades to wrong spools, to stretched or broken arbor bolts. We bought a used 490 a couple years ago and had problems with it not tightening.  Someone had substituted spools from another brand of disk to make it fit and traded it in.  That was  ... interesting. 

One time Dad and my brother were tightening the arbor bolt on a Glencoe Soil Saver.  One was tightening, the other did as someone suggested and hit the other end with a sledge hammer.  Pulled the bolt right out of the big washer welded on the end.

Our sandy soil is rather abrasive.  Once we were tightening the nut with an air wrench and spun the thread off the bolt.

I tell you all that to say this.  Go back and look closely at the disk.  You may have to pull the arbor bolt out to do it.  But someplace you will find a simple answer to your problem. You just have to look for it

typos .. I hate them.  Why is you don't see them until the millisecond after you hit the {Submit} button?



Edited by Mike SE IL 5/17/2008 14:07
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billybob
Posted 5/17/2008 09:52 (#379826 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?


68340

On our Kruse disc, the inside has a flat plate with 4 , 1/2 female thread holes. 

We made a long plate to match, maybe 24 inches long by 5 inches wide.

It is bolted on and prevents the gang from turning while tightening the outside nut.

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will
Posted 5/17/2008 09:59 (#379832 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?



SC
1" air impact with a 3/4" air line works for us. Before the impact, we just had a long pipe on the pull handle and a sledge hammer beating on the opposite end while we were pulling on the pipe. Never had blades slip since using either method.
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boog
Posted 5/17/2008 10:21 (#379836 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?



I loosen the standards before tightening. This allows for even tightening across the length of the arbor bolt
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mcfarm
Posted 5/17/2008 10:25 (#379837 - in reply to #379836)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?


central Indiana
what Ed said
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JohnDeereGreenWKY
Posted 5/17/2008 12:59 (#379889 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?


West Ky
If you have dirt in between the blades and the spools you will never tighten them enough. If you move the blades side to side you could have some misalignment of the arms and you need to align them properly. If you have blades that will spin after that tap has been hammered down, then you have dirt and you have to take the gang apart and get the dirt out. Sometimes the spools will be completly and absolutely packed full of dirt and a headache to dig out. We use usually a very long pipe wrench to hold the 4" spacer at the front of the gang as it slides on the corners of the gang, we roll the gang over so the pipe wrench holds itself on the ground and we take a pip that is around 7 ft long and weighs quite a bit and has it's own special wrench on the end and go to tightening. Put around 100 pounds of weight on the end of the pipe and not anymore because we've had the spacers bust. We've had to double tap some gangs to to keep the tap from working loose if the tap is somewhat bad. But I'm interesting in trying the impact idea if the gang is off the disk, doubt it will hold on though on our disk.
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dave morgan
Posted 5/17/2008 16:34 (#379929 - in reply to #379889)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?


Somerville, Indiana
Use an inch impact wrench with a six point socket, and full compressor pressure, or war emergency power as RWG likes to say. Beat on the other end of the gang bolt if at all possible. Use antineversieze on the threads for lube. If threads are showing, double nut to cover them, you will thank yourself next time.
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WYDave
Posted 5/17/2008 14:55 (#379913 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?


Wyoming

Go get yourself a 3/4 drive IR impact gun, a set of sockets and some big air hose.

You won't have these problems (and a whole host of others just like it) any more.

 

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dko_scOH
Posted 5/17/2008 15:32 (#379921 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Drop the gang...



39.48, -82.98
...and stand it up on end. Steady it with a loader or forklift. Let it use its own weight while you hammer on it with a 1-inch or really good 3/4" air wrench. Loosen the hangers when you re-attach it so there's no thrust on the bearings.
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pjt
Posted 5/17/2008 21:37 (#380038 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: RE: How to tighten disc gangs?


Princeton,IN
Weld a heavy pry bar (old disc gang axles work good) to the end opposite the nut. Bar will hit the ground and serve as your backup. (Cut it off when done.) Works good when you're alone.
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Fla Veggie Farmer
Posted 5/17/2008 23:55 (#380117 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Just when you think you've heard it all!


Southeast Florida
I’ve been tightening disc axles for many years and there’s better ways, easier ways and bad ideas when it comes to tightening disc blades. First thing what kind of disc is it? What size axles does it have? It’s next to impossible to tighten disc blades with an impact and expect good results. The sledgehammer thing and long wrench works too. You’ve got to make sure you don’t have any dirt between the spools and blades or inside the spools either. You need to take the gang apart and clean it with a pressure washer and wire brush if you do, other wise you’re just pissing in the wind. DO NOT OIL OR WD-40 THE SPOOLS! This causes the dirt to bind them completely use water only! Now oiling the threads is a must when tightening them down, You need to make sure you’re not puling against the bearing with a spool being worn down or something because you won’t make it 30 minutes and the bearing are gone. What I’ve found works is to make a wrench if you don’t have one out of 1” steel to fit the nut. I make the wrench about 24” long with a ¾” hole in the other end. I then take a forklift and a chain then start lifting the wrench after we get it as tight as we could with the sledgehammer. I lift the wrench until the disc off the ground or the forklift will not pick it up anymore, the blades are tight then and will stay that way too.
I’ve had lot’s of problems with them Tonka toy John Deere 630 and 637 disc axles staying tight but we finally figured out how; now if the bearings would last would be another story. A disc like this one pictured has a 2 7/8” round axle and 2 wrenches are necessary to tighten them. The nut is 4 1/8” hex head. You must make sure you have enough threads to pull it down too, this can be a problem but making spacers are no big deal just take some old disc blades and cut them down.


Edited by Fla Veggie Farmer 5/18/2008 09:35




(Rome Disc.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Rome Disc.jpg (33KB - 904 downloads)
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Phred
Posted 5/18/2008 08:32 (#380230 - in reply to #380117)
Subject: RE: Just when you think you've heard it all!


NE Mo
We have an open end wrench that the RR used before ribbon rails came on the scene. Unsure where we got it, but it has been here for many years. The wrench is about 4' long with an open end on each end. Never had any of the nuts come loose. But the newer discs' do have larger nuts and bolts.
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plowboy
Posted 5/18/2008 14:58 (#380399 - in reply to #380117)
Subject: RE: Just when you think you've heard it all!



Brazilton KS
Where does the "It’s next to impossible to tighten disc blades with an impact and expect good results." come from, George?
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Fla Veggie Farmer
Posted 5/18/2008 16:36 (#380427 - in reply to #380399)
Subject: RE: Just when you think you've heard it all!


Southeast Florida
I haven't found an impact wrench that even comes close to getting them tight enough. Is there an impact that get's 2,000 ft. lb's built anywhere?
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Brent
Posted 5/18/2008 22:58 (#380660 - in reply to #380427)
Subject: RE: Ingersoll-rand 599A1 Git-R-Done



Stuttgart,Ar
  
 




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The IR 5982A1 Super Duty Impactool delivers 850 impacts per minute and has a recommended torque range from 4000-10000 lb.-ft. It comes standard with lever throttle, 3/4" NPT inlet, and aluminum hammer case.

 
 
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plowboy
Posted 5/18/2008 23:12 (#380676 - in reply to #380427)
Subject: RE: Just when you think you've heard it all!



Brazilton KS
Our 1" ones are supposed to make 1600.  I'd bet on 1200 anyway.  We don't have any  gang bolts here bigger then 11/2"
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Mav
Posted 5/18/2008 02:51 (#380163 - in reply to #379806)
Subject: Work Smarter Not Harder


It seems everybody else likes the brute force approach, but I prefer the finesse method.

And, I bet that you have the exact tool for this method. This would be the wire brush wheel on your grinder, which I think is the most underestimated tool in a shop.

Dirt and rust are the biggest enemy for any case where a nut is tightening a bolt. So it is crucial to remove them from the key areas in order to generate success. For your case I suggest doing ALL the following, miss any steps and you will experience unsatisfactory results:

1) Remove dirt and rust from all the areas that get sandwiched or have slide relative to one another with a wire brush. Clean the blades and the spools where they touch. Clean all threads so the nut can be screwed completely on the bolt/arbor by hand…Of course if it is a lock nut, you most likely will not be able to turn it by hand, but make sure it screws on with a consistent torque over all the threads.

2) Oil the just about everything. I know many will disagree, but it works. I your case I would just oil all the threads, the nut, and the lock washer. If you really want to be meticulous oil the areas where the spools contact the blades, bearings, and etc.

3) Tighten adequately. It is very important that you do not over tighten, which will be very easy to do with all the oil performing its role. I would tighten, at the most, to the smallest torque suggested in your operator’s manual. If one is not present, I would suggest 450 ft-lbs…150 lbs on a wrench 3 ft long. If try to crank that nut down too much you will start displacing metal, which is a very, very, very bad thing. Also, tighten with the gang hanging loosely from the frame…in other words, not on the ground.

I believe this method to be the best way, contrary to what many others may believe. And the reason is because this method properly and accurately loads the joint with the optimal technique. In fact, I will go as far to say that I think you will experience 99.9% positive results if you perform all the steps above.

Lastly, adjust the hangers and tighten the bearing flanges last to eliminate any axial loading on the bearings.

If the axle still wants to turn, dress up the threads, re-oil, and try again. But, a pipe wrench on one of the spools should suffice to keep the gang from turning while the wrench tightens the nut.

Good Luck!

Mav
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rambo
Posted 5/18/2008 07:52 (#380213 - in reply to #380163)
Subject: Re: How to tighten disc gangs?



Remsen, Iowa
That is what we do. Oil stuff up. If you tighten stuff up dry (with no oil) you end up with to much friction and you think the nut is tight but it is just bound up. When we tighten up the gang while it is off the disk, we roll the gang back and forth on the ground while using an impact to tight the nut. Then hang it on the disk for the final torque of the nut.

I think you percentage off success is to low. I bet this is better than 99.9 percent positive results.
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Fla Veggie Farmer
Posted 5/18/2008 09:53 (#380270 - in reply to #380213)
Subject: Oil everything??


Southeast Florida
I think I know what you're talking about there but I skipped some verbiage too. I've had spools get dirt between them and the axle and oil is the last thing you want there when removing them for repair. Oil just makes asphalt then and it's even harder to come apart. Like you said the wire wheel brush is the best but on the larger disc blades with 12" pipe spools have round axles, so there's nothing to get a positive lock on to other than the other nut. The large disc that we use to break ground get dirt inside the spools and cement them too the axle and a water pressure washer is the only thing that I've found that works then the wire wheel.
I also agree on the torque specs you mentioned but on these Rome, Kello-Bilt and Big-G disc with 42" blades the torque specs are 2,000 ft. lb.
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pjt
Posted 5/18/2008 13:59 (#380370 - in reply to #380270)
Subject: RE: Oil everything??


Princeton,IN
Once again, the differences we all work in shows up.
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