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Why don't more people have Fendt's
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teletech
Posted 8/29/2013 11:44 (#3296133)
Subject: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nobody does it like the Deutsch!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA-XVSnvkXc&feature=share&list=PL1CB...
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ne_mn
Posted 8/29/2013 12:10 (#3296170 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Kettle River, MN
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I think the black ones look pretty sweet!
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onslowfarm
Posted 8/29/2013 18:15 (#3296718 - in reply to #3296170)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


West Quebec Pontiac where nobody Farms
you can not afforded " Not do drive it " , Fuel savings, Quality, workmanship
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dragon
Posted 8/29/2013 12:15 (#3296177 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Waupun,wi
Bought our fendts for alot cheaper than we coulda bought deere.
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deere6810
Posted 8/29/2013 12:22 (#3296182 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


COST to buy, and local servive
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johns_79
Posted 8/29/2013 12:43 (#3296214 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Windom, MN
Haven't seen one in this area. Dad knows a guy who bought one and calls it the "Cadillac of tractors". I think some would disagree, it would probably be more like the BMW of tractors. A couple of reasons why there aren't more.

1. Like BMW, there isn't dealerships in this area meaning if you need parts or service, you may need to drive a few miles. We do have an AGCO dealership, but since they go rid of the orange tractors they have moved toward the Masseys (since they are built just a few miles down the road) and even started selling Versatiles as well.

2. Like BMW, these tractors are made in Germany. Rural folks are a little more traditional, meaning they want American made machines. How many times have we gone to get a part for a machine and it has "china" marked on the part. We get a little upset, so when you see a USA stamp, we feel better about the part and ourselves. Now I am not comparing German made stuff to chinese stuff in quality, I know the Germans quality control is much better, but they have something in common with china, they aren't American.

3. I've heard that Fendt cannot be set on 60" centers. I read somewhere that they can only narrow down to 66". If I am wrong, please correct me. I just know in this area we use our tractors for more than one job, and they need to be able to go down the rows after the crop is up. We have used our tractor for tillage, then plant, then spray, and not being able to use a tractor for one of those tasks is a problem for us.

Now I'm not anti import. We do have a Geringhoff corn head that we absolutely love. It does cost a bit more to run than the old corn head, but it does such a nice job and saves us one and sometimes two passes across the field. So I feel the head has paid for itself in fuel and maintenance savings on stalk choppers, tractors, and our disk. But we need to drive 3x the miles for parts with the Geringhoff than we would need to if we had a Case IH head.
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5288
Posted 8/29/2013 12:51 (#3296228 - in reply to #3296214)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


S.E. South Dakota
No dealers close.Same reason there is no Gleaner comebines around here.Lots of good products out there but when i can drive 20 miles to three good dealers[New Holland CaseIH JD]that means alot to me.
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teletech
Posted 8/29/2013 15:42 (#3296484 - in reply to #3296214)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


If Fendt had a lot better company above them than agco they would be far more successful in this country. You can find a deere dealer anywhere and people love the green coolaid they hand out. I think the Vario transmission is far superior to any powershift or IVT out there.
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JoshA
Posted 8/29/2013 12:53 (#3296230 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Alberta, Canada
Ignorance probably has a lot to do with it. If people don't have the knowledge they don't see the benefits. Lack of dealers or neighbors with them has been another hindrance to sales. Seems once they get into the neighborhood they dominate, but nobody wants to be hung out to dry the way Valtra owners were.

We are very happy with our Deere machines and dealers, as are many people, so why venture into murky waters when you're already satisfied?

We are very impressed with Fendt as a company, their attitude as well as their products. Fendt will absolutely be given the opportunity the next time we purchase. I have an 824 coming on demo soon I'm told.
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cattlefeeder
Posted 8/29/2013 13:04 (#3296246 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Central Kansas
I would love to have one, but the nearest dealer is 270 miles away.
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onslowfarm
Posted 8/29/2013 18:18 (#3296725 - in reply to #3296246)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


West Quebec Pontiac where nobody Farms
my nearest Dealer I Trust is 600km away and I would not Change to somebody closer Service is just superb Great watt ever you named when are you Happy With Dealership
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BruceV
Posted 8/29/2013 18:54 (#3296774 - in reply to #3296725)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Alberta, Canada
deys equipment?
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machine
Posted 9/8/2013 15:05 (#3315702 - in reply to #3296725)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


All you John Deere guys keep talking about distance to dealers and so on. What are you going to do when Deere gets their way and basically monopolizes the market and they break each state into 4-8 sections and basically the same number of dealers. Then they tell you which dealer you have to go to. Then when that dealer is 200 miles from you will you still drink the koolaid
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dthrttl
Posted 8/29/2013 13:23 (#3296269 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


You only see custom farmers running Fendts in this area.
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durallymax
Posted 8/29/2013 14:36 (#3296383 - in reply to #3296269)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi

I think the dealer network has a lot to do with it for a couple reasons. First people don't want to buy a machine that doesn't have a dealer nearby. Second, if there is a dealer nearby, enough dealers do not take enough time explaining the benefits and operation of the Fendt.  If you don't show someone all of the features, they'll never know if they like it.  That is what the dealer in our are a has done an excellent job of, showing people the benefits and then letting the machines sell themselves from there on.  Its worked well for them and they move a pile of them.

Ignorance is another large part of it. As one other person mentioned, Farmers especially multi generation grain farmers, are very reluctant to break out of their bubble.  If grandpa ran Case then thats what they will run.  On the flipside, Fendt is a brand that Brand loyal people can switch to without feeling like they are "cheating" on their heritage.  Theres also the patriotic folks.  They see it as being foreign made and don't want anything to do with it. Thats fine by me, but the ones who feel foreign stuff is inferior are the people I will argue with.  The American stuff sure isn't superior, look at Good Year tires, they are an American company yet I bet many people would buy the Foreign French tire before the Goodyear, even though both tires are made in the US enough times anyways. Theres a point where its really more about finding whats best for your operation than worrying about petty things like COO.  Same reason I have a lot of German tools instead of Snap-On, they simply do it better and you get more for your money. Many American companies add a premium for the "Made In USA" sticker but do not stick that money into actual quality or innovation. I'm not trying to be anti American, but its the way many things have worked out for me in the past when comparing companies. 

I think people are somewhat intimidated by Fendt's too, or others lead them to believe it will be intimidating.

There's also the fact that many people simply don't need the features of a Fendt.

I know I enjoy all of the features and benefits and finally after too many years will have one of our own this fall.


dthrttl - 8/29/2013 12:23 You only see custom farmers running Fendts in this area.


Because that is where they shine. High hours, lots of road travel, lots of demand on the machine.  For guys tooling around planting corn they don't provide much benefit, but for the guy pulling a tanker or hauling silage every day they really show their values.

ne_mn - 8/29/2013 11:10 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I think the black ones look pretty sweet!


Compared to a SIMILAR SPEC Deere they are cheaper often times.  Similar spec is key. many people compare base models without the same features.

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Boery
Posted 8/29/2013 14:48 (#3296404 - in reply to #3296383)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Hungary
Usually the custom farmers will trade their machines before the drawbacks would occur !
And as I wrote Fendt is for the people for on the road not on the field :-) ( just joking do note it too seriously )

We find people here who operates Fendt and always have a will to explain why their machine is better.

Plus you have to put 2 tonns on a front and 2,5 on the rear wheel on Fendt 900 series to reach the same weight range than Deere 8000 .
Deere have better weight distribution as well.
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Boery
Posted 8/29/2013 13:36 (#3296292 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Hungary
Fendt builds their tractors in a much different approach than for example JD.
In Germany Fend always been a "Mercedes" of tractors that was a dream of all the farmers who could afford it.
Fendt tractors are suppose to be more universal tractors.
And they always got beaten by JD in pulling force.
Fendt tractors are more economical for example in trailer pulling and in road transport.
But if you pulling a large heavy implement they are always behind John Deere.
In the early 90 before AGCO bought Fendt from the Fendt brothers they were in trouble.
Fendt has missed the powershift era, in the early 90s every competitor had a power shift transmission or at least had power shiftable ranges on it.
We bought a Fendt Favorit 615 in 91 and that machine has a mechanical transmission combined with a hydrodynamic torque converter.
That was a problem in the early 90s . When they realized it it was almost too late so they decided they make a big step and took a patented idea from their shelf - that was a vario transmission .
They patented it I think in the 70s but back than the technology was not there yet to build a hybrid mechanical-hydaulic transmission.
The idea is very simple but the more complex thing is make it work.
They started working on it but the development is used up their financial resources and they got over taken by AGCO before the vario transmission really hit the market.
With the capital of AGCO the popularity of the vario trany is unbreakable ( for sure in Europe ) so all the competitor developed their own IVT which is basically based on the original idea of Fendt.
In these days more and more people is realizing the drawbacks of the hydraulical-mechanical hybrid transmission in certain operations.
On thing is for sure if you compare 2 exactly the same tractors with PS or Vario ( Autopower ) transmission the powershift version will pull away the IVT.
The main reason for it are the losses of the hydraulic power and as the tractor are aging is becoming even worse especially those which are been used for heavy pull.
The gears are have over 95% efficiency and they are not getting much less even over 20000 hours.
The hydrostatic power transfer these days starting in around 70 % efficient and if they used in high pressures they will be worn much in 5000 hours.
This one of the reasons why JD started to work on the direct drive concept .
I herd once from a technician that the IVT-s called a 5K hour transmission.
Certainly in operations where not the drawing force is the main power requirement when PTO power is used as well than the IVT always will be unbeatable.
Sorry for the long text !

Edited by Boery 8/29/2013 13:47
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Bern
Posted 8/29/2013 15:00 (#3296424 - in reply to #3296292)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Mount Vernon, WA
I question some of your numbers. A true mechanical gear transmission might well be 95% efficient, but not a powershift. Clutch drag is going to take that down somewhat.

An IVT will do much better than 70%, or they wouldn't be building them. An old worn out full hydro might be at that, but not an IVT.
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Gunner
Posted 8/29/2013 15:25 (#3296459 - in reply to #3296292)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Modena, Wisconsin

The Fendt CVT will pull with the power shift of anyone else and do it with less fuel because of better engine management.  I watched a Fendt 930 in the field pulling a 7 shank ripper against a JD 8530 and a JD 9330. It pulled the ripper 1 mph faster than the 8530 on less fuel and .3 mph faster than the 9330 on less fuel. That farm was all green until that demo and the Fendt is still there today about 4 years later. There are a number of early 926's in the area around the 10,000 hour mark that are still going strong with no major work done. They do tillage, mowing, planting, work on the silage piles and everything else.

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Brandon
Posted 8/29/2013 14:24 (#3296365 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Illinois
Nothing that requires service -- tractors, combines, air conditioners, lawn mowers, etc. will sell without reasoably local dealer presence, even it is the best product available
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gleanerknowsbest
Posted 8/29/2013 14:36 (#3296382 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


We have two CVT agco transmissions and I would never go back to a power shift, and as far as being out pulled by a powershift, I don't think that is correct. I know our 9670 with the 18 speed power shift didn't have anything on our 220a with the cvt in it. Just the smooth movement of the transmission will have me convinced any day over a powershift.
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Boery
Posted 8/29/2013 14:52 (#3296410 - in reply to #3296382)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Hungary
Since Fendt has no PST we tried with JD.
That was 2 JD 8430 ILS tractor same weight same tyre. The only difference was the transmission.
Both machines were brand new because it was done at the dealership.
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Haystax
Posted 8/29/2013 16:34 (#3296548 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


DV, NV
If your operations more closely resemble the European farming styles and popular implements then the more likely you might be to buy into the Fendt feature set.

East Coast and Midwest dairy and forage operations may be the best fit to make use of the equipment the Fendt was built to accommodate but out West there aren't a lot of operations suited to the maximize those features. It seems that Fendt has a huge uphill battle to fight to gain marketshare.

Edited by Haystax 8/29/2013 16:36
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Gunner
Posted 8/29/2013 20:29 (#3296970 - in reply to #3296548)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Modena, Wisconsin

I thought I heard they make hay out there in the west in some places.  A Fendt on a triple mower is very tough to beat for putting hay down.

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Haystax
Posted 8/29/2013 20:51 (#3297038 - in reply to #3296970)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


DV, NV
Gunner - 8/29/2013 06:29

I thought I heard they make hay out there in the west in some places.  A Fendt on a triple mower is very tough to beat for putting hay down.



Easy to beat for putting hay up! ;)

3 - 10' windrows don't really work as well as 2 - 15' windrows do for vast majority of operations. Like I said if you buy into the Euro haying systems then maybe it makes sense to look at Fendt. Love my Krone baler but that's about the only German tech gaining traction out here
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durallymax
Posted 8/29/2013 22:04 (#3297278 - in reply to #3297038)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
Haystax - 8/29/2013 19:51

Gunner - 8/29/2013 06:29

I thought I heard they make hay out there in the west in some places.  A Fendt on a triple mower is very tough to beat for putting hay down.



Easy to beat for putting hay up! ;)

3 - 10' windrows don't really work as well as 2 - 15' windrows do for vast majority of operations. Like I said if you buy into the Euro haying systems then maybe it makes sense to look at Fendt. Love my Krone baler but that's about the only German tech gaining traction out here



I know nothing about baling, but for chopping a V10 and Fendt is the cats meow. Some prefer a Kuhn and Deere 7r but either way its all you see around here anymore. It works fine for us when we bale but the main reason we run them is to chop hay fast. Three mowers hug our unever ground much better. They also deal with rocks much better.

I do know though that you.almost never see them out west regardless of if the person is chopping or baling.
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CaseFarmer
Posted 8/29/2013 17:00 (#3296589 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Flora IL
Whats a fendt?? Sorry im in southern Chicago
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Chris 924
Posted 8/29/2013 17:10 (#3296608 - in reply to #3296589)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
CaseFarmer - 8/29/2013 17:00

Whats a fendt?? Sorry im in southern Chicago


The best tractor in the world, period! Not open for debate, once you spend one day in one, give it an honest run, at the end of the day you'll come to the same conclusion. :)
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CaseFarmer
Posted 8/29/2013 17:19 (#3296622 - in reply to #3296608)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Flora IL
Guess if i farm in nova scotia ill try one out :)
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Chris 924
Posted 8/29/2013 17:24 (#3296630 - in reply to #3296622)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
CaseFarmer - 8/29/2013 17:19

Guess if i farm in nova scotia ill try one out :)


Need something with big tires to haul in the fishing boats..........Lol
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durallymax
Posted 8/29/2013 17:32 (#3296648 - in reply to #3296622)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
CaseFarmer - 8/29/2013 16:19

Guess if i farm in nova scotia ill try one out :)


Agco has a huge parts DC down there. IIRC its actually the main NA hub (Batavia).

If you cross the Illinois/Wi border youll run into a lot of Fendts. Theres a lot of demand for them up here and a lot of dealers to support them. The dairy industry is their main custom whether its the farms themselves or the custom operators. As another member joked, they truely are built for the road more than anything else in NA aside from JCB however Fendt is much more reliable and universal than the JCB. Dual circuit braking, Fendt Stability Control, ABS, air brakes etc.



As for the CVT being inefficient at transmitting power, I think that member may have his facts a little confused. A hydrostat is innefficient but the CVT is not a hydrostat. It does run off a high pressure hydraulic system but on a much different principle with more mechanical power transmission. Unlike a hydrostat where the hydro directly drives the wheels.
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ahay68979
Posted 8/29/2013 18:33 (#3296749 - in reply to #3296648)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Saronville NE
BIL had 2 Fendts a 924 and 926, traded both off em off for new CIHs, they run manure tankers, said was tired of em being in the shop both only had like 3-4k hours on em. I never liked em when I sat in them, I know my daughter would hate it their buddy seat is like sitting on a rock and about as big around as a tiny pan. I never liked the interior myself. He claims his new CIHs aren't much different on fuel. IDK I would never own one, just cause no dealers or service around.
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Gunner
Posted 8/29/2013 20:32 (#3296978 - in reply to #3296749)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Modena, Wisconsin

924 and 926 are very different from what things look like now.  About like saying I never liked that 1086 so I won't buy a MX305.

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THasse
Posted 8/30/2013 09:58 (#3297978 - in reply to #3296589)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Central NE
Fendt is a German brand tractor that is now owned, from what I understand, by the Massey Fergisun company. They have traditionally been a very technologically advanced tractor with user comfort in mind as well as efficiency. They came out with a CVT transmission some time ago, which has no actual gears, just to adjusting drives in it that are capable of infinite ratios or "gears" in a traditional thinking sense.
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Gerard
Posted 8/29/2013 19:02 (#3296785 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Woodham, Ontario
Fendt tractors are exactly like a Mercedes. You pay extra for the premium brand. Demoed a 822 a few weeks, had really high expectations and was really disappointed.

Some background, on our farm we had ford tractors, had a few New Hollands and started buying some John Deeres in 2001. Most comparable tractor that we have on the farm to a Fendt is a JD 7230R, which john deere admits is made to compete with the Fendt tractors.

Comparing a 822 with a 7230R
- Cab volume is the same, but the Deere has more glass (you can get this from acgo compare website). Visibility is much better out of the 7230R.
- Gauges and buttons behind the steering wheel are hard to see and reach. Deere moved all gauges to the corner post and all the knobs are on the armrest or on the armrest screen, which is plenty big on the Fendt, so why not use it?
- The rear PTO and 3PT switches are at the far side of the armrest... Those are some of the closest on the Deere...
- The remotes on the fendt can not have separate times for the detent.... Why? JD, NH and CIH can have that... I use it all the time.
- The hydraulic paddles on the arm rest will activate a detent immediately. There is no feathering of the remote. If you program a 3 second detent for your field cultivator, you can not activate the remote to lift the cultivator just an inch or 2, it will go the entire way. you can cancel the detent, by pushing the paddle the other way. John Deere got it right on the first 8000 series and Fendt still has a mickey mouse system.
- clicking the paddle forward (like you would to engage a detent on a deere) will put it in float... Very annoying, takes very little effort.
- The vario terminal is not very intuitive. Sure, if you spend enough time in it you will get to know it. But since everything is icons, you can't just tell an employee over the phone to push "so and so" button, you are going to have to explain the picture.
- You need to use the scroll wheel a lot, for a touchscreen monitor...
- ISOBUS did not work with my Pottinger mower. Works fine on my 7930 with a 2630 display, 7230R on the armrest and on a 2600.
- A lot of things are locked when you start the tractor. There is no real indication of that, except for a little light by the button that unlocks it. Everything just works when you start a Deere, unless you locked it yourself.
- The Vario is very smooth and more predictable than the IVT
- The Fendt only revs up the engine as needed, the Deere will rev up the engine too much all the time, just in case. The Fendt system seems much smarter.
- The vario is smoother because you have to shift ranges manually. (which caused error codes that I could not find in the manual.) Also you can damage the Vario by pulling hard in high gear.
- You will spend more time setting up a Fendt to do certain jobs that AUTO mode on the IVT does automatically.
- An equally equipped Fendt 824 is more money than a 7230R. The HP ratings on both brands are so much different that it is hard to say which has more HP...
- the Fendt is more complicated to run, which can be a challenge when some operators' first language is not English.

MY conclusion:
The Fendt has a really nice transmission. I feel that when the current 900s came out they had something special, but Deere has caught up with the new cabs. I don't want to give up all the things I mentioned above to buy a good transmission in a okay (but not WOW) tractor, from AGCO. Buying a Fendt because it is the Cadillac of tractors is not enough.


Edited by Gerard 8/29/2013 19:05
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Chris 924
Posted 8/29/2013 20:16 (#3296937 - in reply to #3296785)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
Gerard - 8/29/2013 19:02

Fendt tractors are exactly like a Mercedes. You pay extra for the premium brand. Demoed a 822 a few weeks, had really high expectations and was really disappointed.

Some background, on our farm we had ford tractors, had a few New Hollands and started buying some John Deeres in 2001. Most comparable tractor that we have on the farm to a Fendt is a JD 7230R, which john deere admits is made to compete with the Fendt tractors.

Comparing a 822 with a 7230R
- Cab volume is the same, but the Deere has more glass (you can get this from acgo compare website). Visibility is much better out of the 7230R.
- Gauges and buttons behind the steering wheel are hard to see and reach. Deere moved all gauges to the corner post and all the knobs are on the armrest or on the armrest screen, which is plenty big on the Fendt, so why not use it?
- The rear PTO and 3PT switches are at the far side of the armrest... Those are some of the closest on the Deere...
- The remotes on the fendt can not have separate times for the detent.... Why? JD, NH and CIH can have that... I use it all the time.
- The hydraulic paddles on the arm rest will activate a detent immediately. There is no feathering of the remote. If you program a 3 second detent for your field cultivator, you can not activate the remote to lift the cultivator just an inch or 2, it will go the entire way. you can cancel the detent, by pushing the paddle the other way. John Deere got it right on the first 8000 series and Fendt still has a mickey mouse system.
- clicking the paddle forward (like you would to engage a detent on a deere) will put it in float... Very annoying, takes very little effort.
- The vario terminal is not very intuitive. Sure, if you spend enough time in it you will get to know it. But since everything is icons, you can't just tell an employee over the phone to push "so and so" button, you are going to have to explain the picture.
- You need to use the scroll wheel a lot, for a touchscreen monitor...
- ISOBUS did not work with my Pottinger mower. Works fine on my 7930 with a 2630 display, 7230R on the armrest and on a 2600.
- A lot of things are locked when you start the tractor. There is no real indication of that, except for a little light by the button that unlocks it. Everything just works when you start a Deere, unless you locked it yourself.
- The Vario is very smooth and more predictable than the IVT
- The Fendt only revs up the engine as needed, the Deere will rev up the engine too much all the time, just in case. The Fendt system seems much smarter.
- The vario is smoother because you have to shift ranges manually. (which caused error codes that I could not find in the manual.) Also you can damage the Vario by pulling hard in high gear.
- You will spend more time setting up a Fendt to do certain jobs that AUTO mode on the IVT does automatically.
- An equally equipped Fendt 824 is more money than a 7230R. The HP ratings on both brands are so much different that it is hard to say which has more HP...
- the Fendt is more complicated to run, which can be a challenge when some operators' first language is not English.

MY conclusion:
The Fendt has a really nice transmission. I feel that when the current 900s came out they had something special, but Deere has caught up with the new cabs. I don't want to give up all the things I mentioned above to buy a good transmission in a okay (but not WOW) tractor, from AGCO. Buying a Fendt because it is the Cadillac of tractors is not enough.


the fendts hyd can set detent to differnt times , in your head land mangment system , not only that different flow rates , or set it to run on feet covered before each function is activated, not only that to be honest it makes no differace where the buttons are placed, you can program every piece of gear you own into the tractor with the setting you like on it , when you start up you chose what your going to run on it and all the settings are there , which make it really good for un experianced operators, they simply choose the piece of gear and depth, speed of hyds run at what i want, not smashing harrows down hard , ect. , all you ever do is press go or end at the head lands , way better than the deere.
also the auto steer can be activated with head land mangament which is way nicer than deere which still requires you to push button seperate ,

nothing is locked up if the tractor is set up the way you set it.

we have two 900 series Fendts proif plus , and two 7R's out of our seven operators everyone is ok with the 7R's being replaced with comparable Fendts , it sounds to me who ever set you up with your demo didn't go into detail with you enough on the true capabilitys of the vario terminal.

I love my 7R's , love them , farm is green as they come , but Fendts are way ahead of the Deere's.
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Gunner
Posted 8/29/2013 20:47 (#3297022 - in reply to #3296785)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Modena, Wisconsin

Sounds like someone did a poor job or showing you the tractor for a demo.  Hydraulic detents can be set for different detent times. Even if set for a detent time you can still feather and implement without kicking in the detent. ISO works great with Pottinger mowers.  There are many of them running in the area here. Nothing needs to be locked when you start it up.  It is all in how you have things setup.  I hate having hydraulics locked at start up so they are set so that is not the case. If visibility over the hood was a concern you should take a look at the 700 series.  A 724 has the same HP and a much smaller hood area so you get a much nicer view.

One bad thing with a demo is when the salesman either does not know the equipment or does a poor job showing its capabilities. It leaves the person trying it out thinking it is not that good of thing to have.  Many demos are lost because of poor setup. 

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WildBuckwheat
Posted 8/30/2013 19:35 (#3298624 - in reply to #3296785)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Middlesex County, Ontario
Gerard - 8/29/2013 20:02

Fendt tractors are exactly like a Mercedes. You pay extra for the premium brand. Demoed a 822 a few weeks, had really high expectations and was really disappointed.

Some background, on our farm we had ford tractors, had a few New Hollands and started buying some John Deeres in 2001. Most comparable tractor that we have on the farm to a Fendt is a JD 7230R, which john deere admits is made to compete with the Fendt tractors.

Comparing a 822 with a 7230R
- Cab volume is the same, but the Deere has more glass (you can get this from acgo compare website). Visibility is much better out of the 7230R.
- Gauges and buttons behind the steering wheel are hard to see and reach. Deere moved all gauges to the corner post and all the knobs are on the armrest or on the armrest screen, which is plenty big on the Fendt, so why not use it?
- The rear PTO and 3PT switches are at the far side of the armrest... Those are some of the closest on the Deere...
- The remotes on the fendt can not have separate times for the detent.... Why? JD, NH and CIH can have that... I use it all the time.
- The hydraulic paddles on the arm rest will activate a detent immediately. There is no feathering of the remote. If you program a 3 second detent for your field cultivator, you can not activate the remote to lift the cultivator just an inch or 2, it will go the entire way. you can cancel the detent, by pushing the paddle the other way. John Deere got it right on the first 8000 series and Fendt still has a mickey mouse system.
- clicking the paddle forward (like you would to engage a detent on a deere) will put it in float... Very annoying, takes very little effort.
- The vario terminal is not very intuitive. Sure, if you spend enough time in it you will get to know it. But since everything is icons, you can't just tell an employee over the phone to push "so and so" button, you are going to have to explain the picture.
- You need to use the scroll wheel a lot, for a touchscreen monitor...
- ISOBUS did not work with my Pottinger mower. Works fine on my 7930 with a 2630 display, 7230R on the armrest and on a 2600.
- A lot of things are locked when you start the tractor. There is no real indication of that, except for a little light by the button that unlocks it. Everything just works when you start a Deere, unless you locked it yourself.
- The Vario is very smooth and more predictable than the IVT
- The Fendt only revs up the engine as needed, the Deere will rev up the engine too much all the time, just in case. The Fendt system seems much smarter.
- The vario is smoother because you have to shift ranges manually. (which caused error codes that I could not find in the manual.) Also you can damage the Vario by pulling hard in high gear.
- You will spend more time setting up a Fendt to do certain jobs that AUTO mode on the IVT does automatically.
- An equally equipped Fendt 824 is more money than a 7230R. The HP ratings on both brands are so much different that it is hard to say which has more HP...
- the Fendt is more complicated to run, which can be a challenge when some operators' first language is not English.

MY conclusion:
The Fendt has a really nice transmission. I feel that when the current 900s came out they had something special, but Deere has caught up with the new cabs. I don't want to give up all the things I mentioned above to buy a good transmission in a okay (but not WOW) tractor, from AGCO. Buying a Fendt because it is the Cadillac of tractors is not enough.


You need to learn to use the GO and END buttons and half your problems will disappear. Don't use a timer. Use GO to drop the cultivator, use END to lift it, and use whichever paddle/joystick/button to raise and lower a couple inches. Also if you hit the green checkmark when starting the tractor to load previous settings the "unlocks" will be the same as last time you were running the tractor. If you don't do that the hydraulics will be locked upon starting which I agree is very annoying, especially when just moving around a loader tractor.

Today I was running a Fendt on a large solid manure spreader. I pull into the field and hit the "go" button. The tractor revs down, engages 1000 PTO, waits 2.4 seconds to fully engage PTO, revs up to 1800 RPM, engages cruise 2 speed, opens tail gate, waits a second, starts chains/conveyor, makes sure the steer axle is in float, and makes sure the auto 4x4 is on. All that, one press of the button, took maybe 3 minutes to set that up and get the timer values right. Now thats saved in the computer so next time I hook onto that spreader I just load the file and away we go.
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Larry NCKS
Posted 8/29/2013 19:33 (#3296839 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Washington, Kansas & Lincoln, Nebraska
Don't know where a dealer is around here.
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durallymax
Posted 8/29/2013 19:41 (#3296859 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
Interesting. Im cirious myself on some of the things you mention gerard. Not saying you should love the Fendt, theres many things that people dont like with them.

Ill agree with you on the few controls up front although they are just the lighting amd HVAC which are rarely used. Its nicer than the old setup thats for sure. The light switches were nothing more than multi position toggles with numbers on them.

The detent issue sounds intersting. I havent spent any time in the SCR Fendts, but our Masseys allow individual timers and Fendt always used to have individual timers IIRC. As for feathering them, that I cant remember. Obviously theres no way to feather the two you set to the joystick but you should be able to feather with the crossgate lever. Maybe you cant though. On our Masseys they do not activate the detent until you move the remote to wherever you have the max flow set. They also allow you to lockout the float. I swore Fendt at least allowed that. Seems odd that Massey would offer more eatures.

Their displays have always been tough to navigate at first. Symbols are harder for some people but it sometimes avoids confusion.

Sounds odd the ISOBUS wouldnt work, ive ran many Pottingers through the ISOBUS on the joystick.

Fendt has had hydraulic and pto lockouts forever. Massey has this too now. Its one button, but enough people dont like it. You have to wonder if aside from safety the trigger, lockouts and tough to navigate screen was intended to deter people who were not educates on the tractor. That trigger alone prevents a lot of people from moving it.

If you shift the range on the fly it will throw an error code enough times as you are supposed to shift at a complete stop due to it being a true gear shift with no clutches. Some people dont like this but it takes wear parts out of the equation and if tou think about it, when you get to the field you are usually stopped to fold out or something anyways. Many people make the mistake of believing they have to chnage ranges if they will be going slow around the builsings or something which is not necessary. Extended high loads at low speeds in high range will stress the CVT.

I do have one question that is not to discredit you at all but how long did you run it and who taught you to run it. Did you feel they explained it well? Ill admit learning a Fendt is like learning abstract algebra whereas many other tractora are more like elementry algebra or less even thouvh both may accomplish the same task at the end of the day.

How would you compare the ride of the two?

Its obvious Fendt and Deere are the cadillac competitors in the NA market. Deere isnt worries about CNH so much as they are Agco. Deere is always Fendts first target.

I think Deere does a nice job and has really brought a lot to the game lately. They are much more appealibg to the NA farmer as a whole I think due to their reputation. Its just good that both Fendt and Deere have compeition. Keeps the innovations coming and keeps them honest.
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Gerard
Posted 8/29/2013 20:10 (#3296923 - in reply to #3296859)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Woodham, Ontario
Going to try to address everything you mentioned.

I assumed the cross gate lever can be used to feather, but for sure I was not able to do it on a paddle with a detent time. I have not driven a late model Massey to compare.

I have read your posts where you mentioned the joystick control works really nice for the pottingers, so eventhough I had no mowing to do and the Fendt did not have a front PTO, I still wanted to try it. Spent a long time messing around with it, deleted the control mask a few times, talked to the salesman, but not a tech.

Some Safety features annoy me a lot. Deere has some things you can't do in the name of safety and you can do it on a Fendt and Fendt will some things they can't do in the name of safety that is no problem on a Deere...

I was stopped when I shifted ranges, could be something with that particular tractor. I still don't like that it can't do it automatically to help protect itself. I can't physically be there all the time to hold the hired help's hand every step of the way.

I had a salesman give me a 30 min lesson a few years back on a 936. I have driven them a few times, but not much in an actual work situation. After I picked up the tractor, the salesperson reviewed a few things with me. I also paged through the manual. Looked things up if it was not explained to me. I feel like I had a good grasp of most of the features and controls.

This did not have the pneumatic cab suspension, and 650/65R42 tires. My 7230R has the hydraulic cab suspension and IF800/70R38 tires. The 7R rode better, but it was not a fair comparison.

I agree that the Fendt and Deere tractors are the top competitors. The main reason for trying the Fendt is that I was considering getting a new 7R before the full tier 4, but I did not want to miss out on a Fendt if they are a superior product for the same money. In the end I did not purchase any tractor and am not planning to buy next year.

As a current Deere customer there are some things that I am used to on a Deere that is hard to adjust to on a Fendt, but if something is clearly superior that should not hold one back.
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Gunner
Posted 8/29/2013 20:54 (#3297050 - in reply to #3296923)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Modena, Wisconsin

It seems like the 800's are having a tough time.  The 700's have the same HP as the small 800's and are cheaper with most of the same features.  If you need the bigger HP most people pay the extra and go to a 900 to get the full suspension and other things.

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durallymax
Posted 8/29/2013 22:10 (#3297294 - in reply to #3296923)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
Gerard - 8/29/2013 19:10

Going to try to address everything you mentioned.

I assumed the cross gate lever can be used to feather, but for sure I was not able to do it on a paddle with a detent time. I have not driven a late model Massey to compare.

I have read your posts where you mentioned the joystick control works really nice for the pottingers, so eventhough I had no mowing to do and the Fendt did not have a front PTO, I still wanted to try it. Spent a long time messing around with it, deleted the control mask a few times, talked to the salesman, but not a tech.

Some Safety features annoy me a lot. Deere has some things you can't do in the name of safety and you can do it on a Fendt and Fendt will some things they can't do in the name of safety that is no problem on a Deere...

I was stopped when I shifted ranges, could be something with that particular tractor. I still don't like that it can't do it automatically to help protect itself. I can't physically be there all the time to hold the hired help's hand every step of the way.

I had a salesman give me a 30 min lesson a few years back on a 936. I have driven them a few times, but not much in an actual work situation. After I picked up the tractor, the salesperson reviewed a few things with me. I also paged through the manual. Looked things up if it was not explained to me. I feel like I had a good grasp of most of the features and controls.

This did not have the pneumatic cab suspension, and 650/65R42 tires. My 7230R has the hydraulic cab suspension and IF800/70R38 tires. The 7R rode better, but it was not a fair comparison.

I agree that the Fendt and Deere tractors are the top competitors. The main reason for trying the Fendt is that I was considering getting a new 7R before the full tier 4, but I did not want to miss out on a Fendt if they are a superior product for the same money. In the end I did not purchase any tractor and am not planning to buy next year.

As a current Deere customer there are some things that I am used to on a Deere that is hard to adjust to on a Fendt, but if something is clearly superior that should not hold one back.


Sounds like you salesman was better than some but not that great. You really need them or someone who knows the Fendt well riding qith you through all of your tasks. Some people dont like that and thats fine.

I forgot to adress your auto headland management issue before. Fendt offers an Auto Variotronic headland system butnit is an option. It sounds like the tractor you recieved was very stripped down. It did at least have the 11" monitor correct? They offer a small one in the cheaper models. 7" IIRC. Still has the pad and wheel on the side like the big one just smaller.

Theres almost too much to learn about them in a day but some people dont want that and I can respect that especially when another brand has treated them well.
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stanredrider
Posted 8/30/2013 00:23 (#3297487 - in reply to #3297294)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Westside, IA
We have one running with us on silage, second year for him. He spent a few days running my 8400 last year and said he liked it better than his Fendt. His number one complaint was the air ride cab (looks like a bobble head in there all day), 2nd was the forward to reverse is too slow compared to the powershift. His main use for the tractor is haulin liquid manure which he says its perfect for but for the silage he would rather have a deere, just his opinion take it as you will.

Edited by stanredrider 8/30/2013 00:27




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Gerard
Posted 8/30/2013 17:22 (#3298443 - in reply to #3297294)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Woodham, Ontario
It did have the larger monitor.

In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything...

I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere?

Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.
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lukelem
Posted 8/30/2013 17:43 (#3298469 - in reply to #3298443)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



waupun wisconsin
Almost sounds like u had your mind made up before the demo jk.....
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Chris 924
Posted 8/30/2013 18:08 (#3298515 - in reply to #3298443)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
Gerard - 8/30/2013 17:22

It did have the larger monitor.

In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything...

I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere?

Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.


lol not program everytime , program once for the lifetime of that piece of equipment, so if you have lets say 15 different things you use on the tractor , you program your settings 15 times, then thats it! forever! you just choose the piece of gear your going to hook up on the screen an presto! it is run just how you like it. can your guys read the word "harrow" ? choose that one and gps , field mapping , hyd flow , detents , head land , cruse speed you want operator to go, ect , all set , just by choosing what you hooked up , tell me whats simpler than that?
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SDFarmboy
Posted 8/30/2013 18:18 (#3298530 - in reply to #3298515)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Chris 924 - 8/30/2013 18:08
Gerard - 8/30/2013 17:22 It did have the larger monitor. In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything... I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere? Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.
lol not program everytime , program once for the lifetime of that piece of equipment, so if you have lets say 15 different things you use on the tractor , you program your settings 15 times, then thats it! forever! you just choose the piece of gear your going to hook up on the screen an presto! it is run just how you like it. can your guys read the word "harrow" ? choose that one and gps , field mapping , hyd flow , detents , head land , cruse speed you want operator to go, ect , all set , just by choosing what you hooked up , tell me whats simpler than that?


Chris:
Not any dealers around here, what would I do when the thing messes up?

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Chris 924
Posted 8/30/2013 19:11 (#3298592 - in reply to #3298530)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
SDFarmboy - 8/30/2013 18:18

Chris 924 - 8/30/2013 18:08
Gerard - 8/30/2013 17:22 It did have the larger monitor. In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything... I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere? Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.
lol not program everytime , program once for the lifetime of that piece of equipment, so if you have lets say 15 different things you use on the tractor , you program your settings 15 times, then thats it! forever! you just choose the piece of gear your going to hook up on the screen an presto! it is run just how you like it. can your guys read the word "harrow" ? choose that one and gps , field mapping , hyd flow , detents , head land , cruse speed you want operator to go, ect , all set , just by choosing what you hooked up , tell me whats simpler than that?


Chris:
Not any dealers around here, what would I do when the thing messes up?



knock on wood my first one has 1600 hours and broke only wiper motor, i pushed my local massey dealer to become a fendt dealer so i could have close support, other wise it would have been 80 miles away for me , which would not have worked, the dealer is happy he made the move , people round here bought deere , he couldn't move big massys , maybe 4 per year , in a year and a half sense becoming a fendt dealer he's moved 18 units, all green trade in's .

so i would go to your closest agco dealer and push them hard to pick up the fendt line, oh and i think were saving close to $20,000.00 per year now, with these fendts verses our old deere's , just food for thought.
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durallymax
Posted 8/30/2013 19:42 (#3298635 - in reply to #3298515)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi

Chris 924 - 8/30/2013 17:08
Gerard - 8/30/2013 17:22 It did have the larger monitor. In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything... I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere? Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.
lol not program everytime , program once for the lifetime of that piece of equipment, so if you have lets say 15 different things you use on the tractor , you program your settings 15 times, then thats it! forever! you just choose the piece of gear your going to hook up on the screen an presto! it is run just how you like it. can your guys read the word "harrow" ? choose that one and gps , field mapping , hyd flow , detents , head land , cruse speed you want operator to go, ect , all set , just by choosing what you hooked up , tell me whats simpler than that?


Thats the hard part for some people. It scares them at first, it is complex, and then they don't get the proper training which doesnt help, or they don't want to accept it because they are not avidly looking to change brands but are entertaining the idea.

Aside from the above though, I think the simplicity may be something some people don't want to comprehend.  Like you said, you program every implement into there and whenever they select that implement, every single setting is changed to what you programmed it for and I mean everything. Cruise speeds, engine load, hydraulic detents, flow rates, locations, etc, and most importantly headland management.  You can program the majority of the stuff so that all you have to do is tell Pedro to select "Turbo Till" and the only thing he would have to do is drive to the field then press go, then press end at the headland, turn, then press go again.

This does have a disadvantage though. Since the operators don't need to know how to operate anything or change anything, they are completely helpless and clueless if they push the wrong button or something else happens, however if we are talking about people whos first language is not english, this can be a good thing, its bad enough seeing their "fixes" for other things around the farm I'd hate to see chicken wire, baler twine and duct tape holding a Fendt together. 

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durallymax
Posted 8/30/2013 19:18 (#3298607 - in reply to #3298443)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi

Gerard - 8/30/2013 16:22 It did have the larger monitor. In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything... I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere? Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.


I have not ran a 7R Deere so I cannot compare but they do look promising for those who choose that route. For us the service has been very poor with Deere in the past and Excellent with the Fendt dealer.

Here is a video showing some of the vario terminals things you mentioned earlier.  As for the use of the thumbwheel for a touchscreen, I was actually talking with my dad about this today. He was made about how our new Duramax has push puttons for the temp control instead of dials.  It takes a long time to push and hold a button to hit your selected value, many people prefer a dial. I think this is why Fendt went that route. Touch what you want to adjust, then quickly adjust it with the dial. Its nice feeling something real too. Kind of like the escape button on my Galaxy S3 and iPod.  When things go wrong its nice having a physical button to push, just makes you feel better.  I do like how they let you navigate without having to touch the screen. Many people have a tough time with touch screens for whatever reason, its nice having a backup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEYAnEzennA 

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durallymax
Posted 9/21/2013 03:11 (#3340130 - in reply to #3298443)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
Gerard - 8/30/2013 16:22

It did have the larger monitor.

In general I am pretty good with electronics and computers. Top of my programming classes and sold custom built computers for a while... I should not need a full day to figure out everything...

I am 99% certain in my observations that I made about the shortcomings of the Fendt. I can't go back to re-evaluate things. I do know that my brother (The cow person on the dairy) has no problems doing things on the Deere that I could not do on the Fendt... So where is the value? Why should I program the headland management every time to overcome the "interesting" control layout when I never see the need to use the headland management on the Deere?

Like I said before, Fendt had something good, better than the competition, when the 900 series came out. I believe they have some work to do to regain that position.




I know this thread is old but I got to thinking about your issues.

With the hydraulic feathering is it possible the soft key for linear flow was flipped the other way where it gives you max flow instantly?

The headland managaement only has to be programmed once for each implement. Providing you create a file for each implemenet and save the info all you have to do is call the info back up. It will also have all of your fields saved with their boundaries and patterns for autosteer providing you saved them as individual fields.

If you have other operators and need to set up tasks for them you can do so from your office and then sync through Variodoc wirelessly with the tractor nearby.



On that note ours is running great. It may not sound like much to many but its over 200hrs now and has not had one single issue. That far surpasses any single 8600 series wr have ever owned or used as a loaner. So much smoother and more user friendly to operate than the Case CVT and Masseys. It seems evident Massey and Fendt use different computers to control the CVT. Massey keeps the revs above 1500 most of the time ehich makes side loading jerky especially since you cannot quickly adjust the agressivness. The Fendt eill drop under 1000rpm. This works well. Since all of our corn was planted with autosteer this year and we have it on the claas now, I just set it up for 30" swath on the Varioguide and it syncs well with the chopper.

Exhaust brake works so well when used by the proper operator the brakes are not needed when slowing to turn into most fields.

The active evolution seat is annoying and we exchnage unpleasant words often. I also hate that I bump thr shock adjustment everytime I set the parking brake.

Overall though its a huge improvement. The HVAC is silent on max and actually keeps the cab cool. The overpressurization feature is noisier but keeps the cab clean.

The new monitor mount bar is nice. Up tight to the roof versus across the middle of the window






Got rained out chopping so I went uo to the dealer and got the weights for it. 1k in each wherl and 4k on the front. Ready for a muddy end to the silage harvest.




Edited by durallymax 9/21/2013 03:27
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durallymax
Posted 8/30/2013 00:31 (#3297489 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
The forward to reverse may be a tad slow but its smooth and doesnt tear up the trans like in a powershift. Pushing silage as you know is nothing but back and forth, wed tear them out every couple years.
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THasse
Posted 8/30/2013 09:55 (#3297971 - in reply to #3297489)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Central NE
The guys around here pretty much only have Deere or Case and we have tons of silage piles. Both do a perfectly fine job, even a few old steigers pushing piles. Usually it's one of the older tractors that gets put on the silage pile because the boss has somebody else doing that job and he wants to leave his nice, shiny new tractor on an auger wagon or disk, etc. Plenty of old 7000 series Deeres and MX series from the early 2000's with blades on them. I don't know how you would tear it up that bad in years. Don't know anything about Fendt's so I have no idea if they'd be better or not, but Case and Deere aren't BAD for it...
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Boery
Posted 8/30/2013 03:26 (#3297517 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Efficiency of a Vario Transmission


Hungary
Some people confused about my previous reply concerning the theoretical efficiency of a different drive systems.
The figures I put down were for the pure theoretical drives - I did not mention the efficiency of the certain transmissions ( neither PST and IVT ,CVT or Vario etc ).
I wrote down the fact that Vario transmission is a hybrid transmission which is a combination of a mechanical and a hydrostatic drive.
Mechanically the vario transmission is very simple basically a large planetary drive ( you can find on display a working demo unit here in Europe almost every exhibition )
You can chech it in this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgtIKMAjvFI
The actual efficiency of a given transmission is depending on many factors I would not go in to the prediction of that, but you can imagine from the theoretical facts that there is a significant difference in efficiency in a pure mechanical drive and a mechanical-hydrostatic hybrid drive.
I also pointed out that this gap will be bigger as the time passes on !
Also someone mentioned that the PST not a pure mechanical transmission - it is a pure mechanical drive. After shifting is done nothing else is involved in the work just gears.

Concerning Fendt is not being successful in NA especially in the corn belt is not just patriotism and people have green or red believers neither the fact there is no dealer close ( dealership network can be extended in no time if the market demand is there ). Just look where those machines are built and where the main market for them.
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durallymax
Posted 8/30/2013 11:44 (#3298088 - in reply to #3297517)
Subject: RE: Efficiency of a Vario Transmission


Wi

Boery - 8/30/2013 02:26 Some people confused about my previous reply concerning the theoretical efficiency of a different drive systems. The figures I put down were for the pure theoretical drives - I did not mention the efficiency of the certain transmissions ( neither PST and IVT ,CVT or Vario etc ). I wrote down the fact that Vario transmission is a hybrid transmission which is a combination of a mechanical and a hydrostatic drive. Mechanically the vario transmission is very simple basically a large planetary drive ( you can find on display a working demo unit here in Europe almost every exhibition ) You can chech it in this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgtIKMAjvFI The actual efficiency of a given transmission is depending on many factors I would not go in to the prediction of that, but you can imagine from the theoretical facts that there is a significant difference in efficiency in a pure mechanical drive and a mechanical-hydrostatic hybrid drive. I also pointed out that this gap will be bigger as the time passes on ! Also someone mentioned that the PST not a pure mechanical transmission - it is a pure mechanical drive. After shifting is done nothing else is involved in the work just gears. Concerning Fendt is not being successful in NA especially in the corn belt is not just patriotism and people have green or red believers neither the fact there is no dealer close ( dealership network can be extended in no time if the market demand is there ). Just look where those machines are built and where the main market for them.


The Vario trans is up to 93% efficient.  The faster you go the more mechanical the drive becomes.  Thats the reason they want you to change ranges in the field, so you can transfer more power mechanically versus hydraulically.

PST is a mechanical drive, but mechanical drives have parasitic losses. I've always been told 10-15% loss through traditional drivetrains to the wheels.

Fendt is not aimed at the Corn Belt.  Their advantages have few benefits to corn belt growers.


THasse - 8/30/2013 08:55 The guys around here pretty much only have Deere or Case and we have tons of silage piles. Both do a perfectly fine job, even a few old steigers pushing piles. Usually it's one of the older tractors that gets put on the silage pile because the boss has somebody else doing that job and he wants to leave his nice, shiny new tractor on an auger wagon or disk, etc. Plenty of old 7000 series Deeres and MX series from the early 2000's with blades on them. I don't know how you would tear it up that bad in years. Don't know anything about Fendt's so I have no idea if they'd be better or not, but Case and Deere aren't BAD for it...


When it comes to articulateds nothing can compete, they are great for pushing. However with row crop tractors you're generally rushed to keep up as it is. The powershift has to physically shift and wear down clutches every time you go from forward to reverse. The magnums huge 2-3 reverse jump was never fun either.  This repeated shifting eventually wears the clutches down and they need to be replaced.

The CVT does not recieve any shock load ever and there are no wear parts.  The planetary gearset that drives the tractor is always under load, to change directions they simply swing the pump the opposite direction, its seemless and nothing gets worn down. I don't feel its any slower than our  MX magnums were, but it is much smoother and you can throw the lever whenever you want and not feel like you are abusing it.

THasse - 8/30/2013 08:58 Fendt is a German brand tractor that is now owned, from what I understand, by the Massey Fergisun company. They have traditionally been a very technologically advanced tractor with user comfort in mind as well as efficiency. They came out with a CVT transmission some time ago, which has no actual gears, just to adjusting drives in it that are capable of infinite ratios or "gears" in a traditional thinking sense.


Fendt has been owned by Agco for awhile. Agco brought them to the states.

The CVT has mechanical parts just no set ratios.  Like any CVT its all based around a planetary drive, the variable displacement pump and motors with 45* swing is what gives them their full stepless range from 0-60kph, that is their patented part. The other companies use a similar setup but due to the patents they have to use ranges shifted by clutchpacks.   

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Boery
Posted 8/30/2013 18:38 (#3298562 - in reply to #3298088)
Subject: RE: Efficiency of a Vario Transmission


Hungary
Durallymax- Your figures are very wrong.
I did not wrote figures purpusly about any transmission but yours are way out of range.
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durallymax
Posted 8/30/2013 19:46 (#3298638 - in reply to #3298562)
Subject: RE: Efficiency of a Vario Transmission


Wi

Boery - 8/30/2013 17:38 Durallymax- Your figures are very wrong. I did not wrote figures purpusly about any transmission but yours are way out of range.


I took mine from the Fendt publication. Sure its their own, but it shows I'm not just pulling numbers out of my arse.  Obviously the 93% is at full speed when there is full mechanical power transfer.  Due to the design of this transmission, it is much more efficient when running in full mechanical power transfer than a powershift, there is much less parasitic loss.

 http://www.farmdepot.biz/cvt-fact-vs-myth.pdf



Edited by durallymax 8/30/2013 19:48
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Boery
Posted 8/31/2013 06:00 (#3299155 - in reply to #3298638)
Subject: RE: Efficiency of a Vario Transmission


Hungary
I saw this article before, but did not remember to this figure.

I copy the sentence you took your figure:
"NOTE :
In summary, the advantage of power splitting is allowing power to take two paths through the transmission. When one path (either the hydraulic or mechanical) is inefficient, the other path picks it up. The result is as much as a 93.1% efficiency."

Man it is nothing to say about overall efficiency about the whole drive unit.
This is a tipical marketing bull**** from any company, they form the words in the way to make belive things which are not written. Facts which not easy to measure never true in marketing documents.
I cloud go in to more deep in to this because I see now I would'nt to be able to convince you and I belive to my eyes ( I was involved in evaluation where 4 traktoros were tested in heavy pull conditions Fendt vario , JD PST, JD Autopower and CIH PST )
As general PST out performed the IVT in efficiency and Power as well.
That was an independent institute test and they have the document of it but unfortunatelly that is not in english.
Do not take me wrong I am not saying that Fendt and Vario transmision are bad !
As I wrote earlier they have their place on the rainbow but certainly not on the heavy pull task, more like a transport and combined PTO tasks.
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durallymax
Posted 8/31/2013 14:38 (#3299888 - in reply to #3299155)
Subject: RE: Efficiency of a Vario Transmission


Wi

Boery - 8/31/2013 05:00 I saw this article before, but did not remember to this figure. I copy the sentence you took your figure: "NOTE : In summary, the advantage of power splitting is allowing power to take two paths through the transmission. When one path (either the hydraulic or mechanical) is inefficient, the other path picks it up. The result is as much as a 93.1% efficiency." Man it is nothing to say about overall efficiency about the whole drive unit. This is a tipical marketing bull**** from any company, they form the words in the way to make belive things which are not written. Facts which not easy to measure never true in marketing documents. I cloud go in to more deep in to this because I see now I would'nt to be able to convince you and I belive to my eyes ( I was involved in evaluation where 4 traktoros were tested in heavy pull conditions Fendt vario , JD PST, JD Autopower and CIH PST ) As general PST out performed the IVT in efficiency and Power as well. That was an independent institute test and they have the document of it but unfortunatelly that is not in english. Do not take me wrong I am not saying that Fendt and Vario transmision are bad ! As I wrote earlier they have their place on the rainbow but certainly not on the heavy pull task, more like a transport and combined PTO tasks.


I realize its marketing which I implied it wasn't the most reliable source of information.

I don't have that narrow of a mind really, I believe that its very possible that the CVT's are not very efficient especially when running low speeds.  However for the person buying the machine, the theoretical or actual efficiency of the drivetrain doesn't matter.  It comes down to getting the task at hand done efficiently. A powershift may be more efficient at putting power to the ground in high draft work. Thats probably why no articulateds have them and why Challenger is in no hurry to put one in the MT700s.  However for tasks requiring constant speed and direction changes, it becomes a nicer tool to use as you are not limited by set ratios.

Like you said, their place on the rainbow is transport tasks, that is very true, there are not many people buying them to just go dig dirt, most are buying them for their features when it comes to transport or mounted 3pt implements. 

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johnypop
Posted 9/8/2013 15:26 (#3315739 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


ND

1- ugly
2- no dealers around here
3- see them at Big Iron and on to the next show
4-ugly
5-same as 2
6-same as 3 

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lukelem
Posted 9/8/2013 17:38 (#3315975 - in reply to #3315739)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's



waupun wisconsin
So you only have one viable reason. Number 2. Thanks for typing the other 5 reasons. I get dumber reading some of these post.
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Chris 924
Posted 9/8/2013 18:58 (#3316129 - in reply to #3315739)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
johnypop - 9/8/2013 15:26

1- ugly
2- no dealers around here
3- see them at Big Iron and on to the next show
4-ugly
5-same as 2
6-same as 3 



how is this ugly?



(fendt 936.jpg)



(671809b.jpg)



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Attachments fendt 936.jpg (47KB - 883 downloads)
Attachments 671809b.jpg (55KB - 860 downloads)
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SDFarmboy
Posted 9/8/2013 19:04 (#3316142 - in reply to #3316129)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Chris:

You are right, that is ugly, we, in the USA, do like our Deere's and the service.

I agree with you and do find the Fendt, does look like a toad.
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Chris 924
Posted 9/8/2013 19:16 (#3316178 - in reply to #3316142)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
SDFarmboy - 9/8/2013 19:04

Chris:

You are right, that is ugly, we, in the USA, do like our Deere's and the service.

I agree with you and do find the Fendt, does look like a toad.


i have a couple of those US built Deere's fact most everything on my farm is from "merica" but i found out last year those Germans do it way better! The new 7R's are very pretty , but my Black Beauty is beautiful.
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johnypop
Posted 9/8/2013 19:26 (#3316193 - in reply to #3316129)
Subject: RE: Why don't more people have Fendt's


ND

Look up ugly in the dictionary and you will find a picture of a Fendt.

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Chris 924
Posted 9/8/2013 19:55 (#3316259 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
the award for most whitty come back ever on nat is about to be handed out, come up on stage johnypop.
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johnypop
Posted 9/8/2013 20:10 (#3316312 - in reply to #3316259)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


ND

Chris 924 - 9/8/2013 19:55 the award for most whitty come back ever on nat is about to be handed out, come up on stage johnypop.


Just tell it like it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

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Chris 924
Posted 9/8/2013 20:34 (#3316413 - in reply to #3316312)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
johnypop - 9/8/2013 20:10

Chris 924 - 9/8/2013 19:55 the award for most whitty come back ever on nat is about to be handed out, come up on stage johnypop.


Just tell it like it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 



but is it ? i will tell you i never had city folk stop to take pictures of any of my deere's , never! but it seems like at least once a week you'll be at some store or coffee shop and i'll come out and they'll be someone snapping a pic and asking a few questions , also the Fendt seem's to be a much bigger hit with the 20-30 year old hot country girl group, but you probley wouldn't want them coming up wanting to chat with you anyway. so from an unbias public demagraph the Fendt seems to be much prettier , so your opinion seems to not tell it like it is .......... :)
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SDFarmboy
Posted 9/8/2013 20:43 (#3316453 - in reply to #3316413)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Chris you must be a young guy, with a jacked up pickup, and on the lookout for a jacked up chick.
If you find one that likes the Fendt, good for you, but it does mean she likes you also, so good for you.


Most here, farm for a living, and machinery is just for work, not play !!
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Chris 924
Posted 9/8/2013 20:58 (#3316528 - in reply to #3316453)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
SDFarmboy - 9/8/2013 20:43

Chris you must be a young guy, with a jacked up pickup, and on the lookout for a jacked up chick.
If you find one that likes the Fendt, good for you, but it does mean she likes you also, so good for you.


Most here, farm for a living, and machinery is just for work, not play !!


well i'm 31 so not sure if that's young or my chick, been with her for 8 years , but don't mind talking to others at all , My truck, no not lifted, beat down dually with 300 and some odd thousand km on it , still runs good , wouldn't catch me spending over $10,000. on a truck, haven't found one yet that made me money, but i have saved a little over $17,000.00 in fuel last year running two Fendts which replaced two 8R Deere's so for me it's more a bottom line thing then a looks thing.
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SDFarmboy
Posted 9/8/2013 21:04 (#3316548 - in reply to #3316528)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Chris:
Good for you, I bet daddy is helping for the most part. You have fun with the Fendts, they may be a nice tractor,
but for many watching, they will never find out.
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Chris 924
Posted 9/8/2013 21:10 (#3316570 - in reply to #3316548)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
SDFarmboy - 9/8/2013 21:04

Chris:
Good for you, I bet daddy is helping for the most part. You have fun with the Fendts, they may be a nice tractor,
but for many watching, they will never find out.


Bought farm off the bank when i was 22, they were forclosing on my Dad. I'm not no Daddys boy bud.
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deere6810
Posted 9/9/2013 06:00 (#3317043 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


See you acquired a fan club, wondering if your two main fans are daddy's boys themselves?

Chris, any other 700 or 800 series you own or in area, if so how are they working out.
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littlechickenfarmer
Posted 9/9/2013 09:39 (#3317401 - in reply to #3317043)
Subject: Please help me understand


A corn field somewhere on planet vulcan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgtIKMAjvFI

Funny thread, everyone so emotional all the time, especially funny where people comment on machines they have never used before.

I have found the debate interesting, so with out your special hats on please explain because I think this is a no brainer, cant see where the losses are happening.

When the sun gear is in full swing would seem to be an efficient transfer to the ground, seems like less loss would happen than through a powershift?
-when more power/torque needed engine takes more direct route to the ground is what I am seeing but I am not an expert.

Really, as far as the comments on them wearing so out so quickly any of the folks that have the super high hour machines seem to be getting along well and I guess the proof is already in the pudding.

As far as Chris goes, I think it sounds like he has taken advantage of increasing crop prices and taken some risk with land to get on the road to a good future, so good on him, not many people know what it is like to farm in Nova Scotia, whole different ball game.



Edited by littlechickenfarmer 9/9/2013 09:45
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Chris 924
Posted 9/9/2013 17:43 (#3318044 - in reply to #3317043)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
deere6810 - 9/9/2013 06:00

See you acquired a fan club, wondering if your two main fans are daddy's boys themselves?

Chris, any other 700 or 800 series you own or in area, if so how are they working out.


yes, so we are the only one's to have bought 900 series but they have sold four 800 series and twelve 700 series , they only got dealer ship less than 2 years ago , they've had couple issues with to much paint on front drive shafts to outer wheels , this causing seal failures and i think one DEF problem with one of the 700 series , but for most part been great , i got one with 1700 hours broke windshild whipper , the other 700 hours , nothing yet.
the blueberry growers love them for there slow speed on harvestors where they would burn up the deere ivt's Dairy guys in general like the 700's for mowing ect.
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deere6810
Posted 9/10/2013 06:38 (#3319156 - in reply to #3318044)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


regular culivatored blueberries, or wild blueberries.
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Chris 924
Posted 9/10/2013 10:23 (#3319500 - in reply to #3319156)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
deere6810 - 9/10/2013 06:38

regular culivatored blueberries, or wild blueberries.


wild blueberries , double heads with the bin unloaders
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GinNB
Posted 10/29/2013 20:08 (#3411525 - in reply to #3318044)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



Central Equipment must be your new Fendt dealer, eh?  Hall Brothers dropped their Massey dealership recently as well. Nice features but they just weren't selling.  

 My choice for a blueberry transmission is the 48/48 in the Kubota M105S or M108S. Simple, mechanical, cheap, with LOTS of speed choices. They're still available without tier 4 emissions gizmos as well.

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jcfarmboy
Posted 9/9/2013 11:44 (#3317563 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



South Western Ontario, Canada
Used to work with two Fendts few years back... Best thing we ever did(in my eyes) was to paint the rims!!!

Liked the tractor compared to a Valtra but much prefer the bigger cabs on the Case and Deeres.

Fuel economy.... Well.... I haven't found anything as hard on fuel as a deere.

Maybe some day you will have an elevator this big when you start farming with Case equipment!!! Just teasing you young man!! (I'm 32 and don't own the farm... So yes I'm jealous!)




(IMG-20130909-00379.jpg)



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Attachments IMG-20130909-00379.jpg (94KB - 828 downloads)
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Chris 924
Posted 9/9/2013 17:58 (#3318071 - in reply to #3317563)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
jcfarmboy - 9/9/2013 11:44

Used to work with two Fendts few years back... Best thing we ever did(in my eyes) was to paint the rims!!!

Liked the tractor compared to a Valtra but much prefer the bigger cabs on the Case and Deeres.

Fuel economy.... Well.... I haven't found anything as hard on fuel as a deere.

Maybe some day you will have an elevator this big when you start farming with Case equipment!!! Just teasing you young man!! (I'm 32 and don't own the farm... So yes I'm jealous!)


Nice setup! how many bushel of storage? I finally convinced my bank to give me some money to put up our own, starting with 156,000 bushel storage only 10,000. wet storage though, but 900 bph dryer 25%-15%
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jcfarmboy
Posted 9/10/2013 08:52 (#3319379 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's



South Western Ontario, Canada
11 bins totaling 750,000 bushels. 45,000bu wet storage. 2000bu/h cf tower dryer.

After the first year or two the bank will be throwing money at you to keep expanding.

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Chris 924
Posted 9/10/2013 10:26 (#3319505 - in reply to #3319379)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
jcfarmboy - 9/10/2013 08:52

11 bins totaling 750,000 bushels. 45,000bu wet storage. 2000bu/h cf tower dryer.

After the first year or two the bank will be throwing money at you to keep expanding.



lol i hope so i already got bought i already got round 350,000 bushels to go threw the place!
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durallymax
Posted 9/10/2013 11:21 (#3319586 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
Well I haven't kept up on the latest NAT Fendt fight, but hopefully I am not too late to the game.

Our new 930 showed up last week while I ended up in the hospital. Nice welcome home surprise and my body is already appreciating the ride quality. I don't think I'd be able to sit in one of our Massey/Agco's as long while I recover from this stuff.

My neighbor is an Oliver man, anyone who knows an Oliver man knows they will never back down, their brand will beat everything doesn't matter what. This guy is very smart though, however he's still very proud of his Oliver. Out of all of our tractors the Fendt was the first one I have ever shown him that got a compliment out of his mouth first versus a smart ass comment. He was amazed by the thing. And as always, dropping the IFS always makes people smile.

I'm not going to say they're perfect for everybody, but those who have them sure seem to love them and those who dont/can't sure seem to hate them. I think theres more tension between the Fendt versus Deere than there is in the Deere versus IH.

 photo 20130907_165810_zpsf793e761.jpg

 photo 20130907_171141_zpscc230e7c.jpg




I will give you Deere lovers one thing, the comfort buddy seat in the Fendt makes it a little tight to get in and out of.


No I do not entirely own my own farm, my "pickup" is far from jacked up (2000 VW TDI 270,000 miles) and I am already married and she loves Fendts (and Olivers ironically)
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johnypop
Posted 9/10/2013 21:28 (#3320692 - in reply to #3319586)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


ND

Your neighbor liked the Fendt because the rims are the same color as the older Olivers.

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Chris 924
Posted 9/10/2013 15:42 (#3319942 - in reply to #3296133)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Nova Scotia
Wow! Looking real nice! Your going to love everyday now lol
Hope your alright, nothing to serious I hope with respect to the hospital?
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durallymax
Posted 9/10/2013 16:44 (#3320024 - in reply to #3319942)
Subject: Re: Why don't more people have Fendt's


Wi
Chris 924 - 9/10/2013 14:42

Wow! Looking real nice! Your going to love everyday now lol
Hope your alright, nothing to serious I hope with respect to the hospital?


Sent you an email a few days ago. ill try resending it thanks.
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