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AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)
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chocgopher
Posted 6/27/2013 22:32 (#3178460)
Subject: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Iowa
We have a 2006 AGCO RT155A that has given us 3600 hours of reliable service as a sprayer and grain cart tractor. We have been satisfied overall with the tractor. However, one weak point on this tractor has certainly been the air conditioning system. We have had the A/C compressor fail twice in approximately 7 years, it occassionally freezes up, and we have an ongoing issue with the A/C system not draining properly. The condensate does not want to drain from the tubes over the rear wheels and we often get water dripping from the headliner inside the cab onto the right hand console. We have blown out and cleaned the components several times, made sure there were no blockages and inspected under the top hatch. Still can't seem to resolve the issue, nor can the dealer. I was wondering if this is a common weakness on these vintage/style tractors. If so, has it been addressed in newer versions?

We are looking to add a 200 hp range tractor to our lineup. We have every color of the rainbow equipment on our farm, so we are open to a lot of options. Except for the A/C issue mentioned above, we have loved the features, tranny and Sisu engine of our RT155A. We are considering the Massey 8650 and Challenger MT645D. They both seem like very nice tractors with a lot of great features. Not crazy about how stiff they have made the tension in the CVT control handle. Can it be adjusted? I much prefer the tension in our RT155A CVT knob.

Also considering a Deere 8235R IVT with ILS. We have a couple Deere 4WD tractors (9120 and 9230) that we like very much, but don't have ownership experience with a Deere FWA. We drove an 8345R with IVT today and it was a fine speciman of a tractor. Funnily enough though, that Deere tractor was also leaking air conditioning water inside the cab; it was literally streaming from the interior light onto the buddy seat. So I guess I shouldn't be too hard on AGCO!

I really don't thing we can go wrong with any of these options. We have 3 good Deere dealerships in the surrounding area (one is about 5 miles away). We are also halfway between a Ziegler store and Butler's new Nebraska location (about 50 miles from each). They both seem to have excellent reputations for mobile service. Butler will handle both Massey and Challenger.

With the difference in trade allowances regarding an older White-Agco that we have to trade in, plus less of a discount off of list, the Deere will definitely be a lot more money for a tractor with less features (although nothing we couldn't really live without: 31mph, xenon lights, 6th SCV, auto mirrors, super deluxe seat, 13 less PTO HP, etc). But we have encountered a similar price hurdle anytime that we have looked at jumping to green paint from any another color. There is obviously the resale arguement for JD, but I am assuming that with both Butler and Ziegler in the area, the AGCO products should hold their value decently.

It seems to be pretty widely understood that, in a matter of time, Deere will eventually need to go the DEF fluid route like everyone else. When they do, I am sure that JD will market it as the best thing since sliced bread. What do you think that will mean for market demand of these late Tier 4i EGR Deeres? Will their value suffer because they will suddenly be "old technology," or they be like the pre-emissions semi tractors that command such a high price premium now?

Any weak points that I should be aware of on any of these new tractors? We don't have any GreenStar technology currently. We have been Trimble RTK and our combines are CIH. Planter is JD but is all Precision Planting technology. Main duties will be pulling a 1200 gallon Hardi sprayer and a 1000 bushel grain cart. Occassionally it will pull a 17 knife NH3 applicator, 38 foot mulch finisher, 33 foot Case 330 Turbo and a 12 yard dolly wheel scraper. Would one brand be easier to mate up with a Hardi ISOBUS? The Deere weighs 6000 pounds more, which might help in tillage, but gives me some concern on the sprayer seeing as how we are on wet river bottom soils.

Sorry for the rambling. It is great to have such nice products to choose from. My father and uncle ran a lot of Whites and Olivers years ago to economize and save money. In doing so, they often felt they accepted a lesser product in return for the savings. However, AGCO products have come a long ways in recent years, and I don't necessarily think that the price versus quality tradeoff is much of a factor anymore.

Thanks for any and all objective input!

Edited by chocgopher 6/28/2013 16:04
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GM Guy
Posted 6/28/2013 00:41 (#3178641 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


NW KS/ SC ID
how long do you keep tractors?

the CVT is a long term transmission, simple, rugged, reliable. seperate hydraulics from remotes, so no contamination. I personally would rather deal with urea than a gummed up EGR engine.

back to the drip tray leak, didnt someone say there were check valves in the pillar that they removed and got it to drain?

on the last comment about the "lesser" whites and olivers, maybe with a 2-150 or 4-150, but I think if they had a 2-135 or 2-155 they should have felt they had the world by the tail. the powertrain is just so much more rugged, and the tractor as a whole is much better laid out and designed than the green counterparts of the era.
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The Pretender
Posted 6/28/2013 03:59 (#3178676 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: RE: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


The Internet

We have had 9 Masseys now and have not had a single issue with the AC, hardly a big sized sample though. I don't think it has as much capacity as the MX Maxxum or the 40 series Fords though.

If you are open to different brands then you can make an informed decision on what machine to buy and it will be the right one. They all go wrong, even tractors with yellow wheels, it's how the problem is dealt with that matters. Agco get some abuse on here, but we get very good service from our dealer and they are a no brainer for new machines.

As far as the actual performance of the machine goes, as an operator, the only thing I can pull them up on is that in the cab some of the buttons look and feel the same so you (well I do anyway) have to physically look at them to make sure you press the right one.

Our first 8600 had a few issues, but it was one of the first built. It went back to the factory for, err, something, mainly because we had more hous on ours than anyone else. The new one just works as far as I know, so what more can you ask? Really pleased with "my" 7618.

 

 

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Mooovin' manure
Posted 6/28/2013 07:29 (#3178856 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Winchester, Va
chocgopher I have a challenger 665D that will be for sale by October. my email address is in my profile.
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GangGreen
Posted 6/28/2013 07:37 (#3178870 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: RE: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)



Eastern Iowa
6000 pound difference in weight between the Deere and a similar sized AGCO? Can that be right?
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chocgopher
Posted 6/28/2013 08:02 (#3178923 - in reply to #3178870)
Subject: RE: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Iowa
GangGreen - 6/28/2013 06:37

6000 pound difference in weight between the Deere and a similar sized AGCO? Can that be right?



According to the brochures, Massey 8650 (205 PTO HP) shipping weight is 24,250 pounds. Shipping weight on a Deere 8235R (192 PTO HP) with ILS is 30,252 pounds (the ILS adds approximately 3,000 pounds over the conventional JD MFWD axle).


@ GM Guy - 6/27/2013 23:41

how long do you keep tractors?

GM Guy: We often keep our tractors for 8-12 years. After about 8 years they are often taken off of the primary duty that they were purchased for and reassigned to less demanding roles for the remainder of their life here.

Thanks for the comments thus far. Keep them coming!!!
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canadian farmer
Posted 6/28/2013 18:31 (#3179875 - in reply to #3178870)
Subject: RE: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Nebraska tractor test shows both tractors at roughly 25K lb.  Deere doesn't have ILS, but has duals.  MF has singles all around.  I'd say the MF stats you have are for a tractor on singles.

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durallymax
Posted 6/28/2013 08:01 (#3178918 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Wi
What will you be doing with it?

Anybody who's followed our experiences with the 8600 series knows our frusterations. They have been constand headaches, but we use them hard and the newer Tier 4 one is better. If you are just using it to plant corn, dig dirt or bale hay I think itll be okay. The CVT and Sisu are great and better than Deere, but the rest of the tractor is a dissapointment.
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chocgopher
Posted 6/28/2013 08:18 (#3178956 - in reply to #3178918)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Iowa
durallymax - 6/28/2013 07:01

What will you be doing with it?

Anybody who's followed our experiences with the 8600 series knows our frusterations. They have been constand headaches, but we use them hard and the newer Tier 4 one is better. If you are just using it to plant corn, dig dirt or bale hay I think itll be okay. The CVT and Sisu are great and better than Deere, but the rest of the tractor is a dissapointment.



Durallymax: I am certainly aware of your frustrations. I have went back and read all of your posts that I could find over the last couple of days here on NAT. In fact, your experiences and the comments of EquipmentUser are causing me the most hesitation regarding the possible Massey purchase. I was hoping that some of the kinks in these tractors would have been worked out by now, but I can certainly understand your comments concerning the fragile glass door, etc. A mechanic at our local dealer cited hydraulic coupler issues, software bugs and DEF sensors as early weak points, but was satisfied with the fixes AGCO had provided.

The MF 8650 we are looking at is actually a leftover late 2012 model year, so I am unsure whether there were any significant changes or updates made for the 2013 model year.

Our semi-local AGCO dealer (about 60 miles away) was a mom and pop type dealership that always gave us good service. They have decided to sell to Butler Ag. His whole dealership team is making the transition to Butler, so there will hopefully be good continuity of service after the transition.

You certainly put harder use on your tractors than we will. Ours will be all row crop work, and some lighter tillage as mentioned above. I totally understand your appreciation for the Fendt. We demoed a 900 series years ago and it was an amazing tractor. It is just hard to justify the price difference when you consider our intended usage.

Thanks.



Edited by chocgopher 6/28/2013 20:53
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The Pretender
Posted 6/28/2013 11:32 (#3179286 - in reply to #3178956)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


The Internet

chocgopher - 6/28/2013 14:18  Ours will be all row crop work, and some lighter tillage as mentioned above. I understand your love for the Fendt, we demoed a 900 series years ago and it was an amazing tractor. It is just hard to justify the cost difference for our intended usage. Thanks.

Our 8680 was bought for doing the cultivation work, that is all it did and the 8690 took over from it and does the same work

 

This tool is the reason we have such a big tractor, it needs to be boss of it to work properly. It will fully load the tractor though it has been on the 8480 it is pretty much pulled as fast as it will have it.

This tool makes it bark too. The 7250 couldn't manage the discs as well. The actual tractor in the photo was of the UK demo machine. Our original 8680 had some software problems, so Agco gave us the demo tractor while they rewrote some software and told us to keep the tractor untill we were happy that ours was 100% as we wanted it. You cannot complain about that.

The new 8690 has had a sensor related to emmisions fail and put it into limp mode at the weekend iirc. The dealer lent us a tracked Challenger while they got the sensor delivered. My 7618 has a sensor fail (probably the same one) but it wasn't working hard enough to put it into limp. What ever emmission system you opt for you will get issues of some sort. We get the odd stupid sensor and I understand people with yellow wheels get EGR valves, DPF regen issues and variable geometrey turbo issues, so you pays you money and takes your choice.

From what I could tell the original 8600 had a load of updates done while we had it and again when it was traded before it was sold on and the new one which is about 18 months old seems better.

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jeslibby
Posted 6/28/2013 12:09 (#3179332 - in reply to #3179286)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Texas
To the pretender. As i have been looking at the challenger what are your thoughts on the tract tractor that you used? There is not a MF dealer around, however, there is a Cat dealer for the challenger. Jes
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The Pretender
Posted 6/28/2013 13:18 (#3179446 - in reply to #3179332)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


The Internet

To get things straight, I am not the manager, I am what you call a "hired hand" but I take a big interest in the farm

When the 8680 was up for replacement The Management was very keen to have a Challenger. (here in the UK and most of Europe the only Challenger you see are on tracks, Massey is a very strong brand, even after they buggered it all up in the 1990s). So the dealer was called and a new 765 (would that be a D?) came out on demo. The Patriot (green thing on the Massey in the pictures) was taken off the Massey and hooked to the Challenger and she was put to work.

I didn't drive it, not my department, but I am told that it could pull the machine not faster used the same (more iirc) amount of fuel but it did slip less as you would expect.

The big problem with it was how uncomfortable it was compared to the Massey. The red one just glides over the bumps where as everything in the Challenger shuck and rattled, including the operator. The Management came for a drive and decided that he could expect the operator, who is over retirement age and doesn't need the money, to drive such an uncomfortable machine. So after a morning it was parked up, the Massey put back to work and a new 8600 was ordered. I think another nail in the Challengers coffin was going back to a powershift, it always sounded from the outside that it was in the wrong gear, the Massey's engine note never changes. It wasn't quite a straight forward swap anyway, we have a fully mounted in furrow plough that wouldn't work on tracks, but that is not an insurmountable problem if the tractor was going to work for us.

The tracked machine they lent us while the 8690 was down was a trade in with about 7500 hours on it that ended up going to Poland

 

 

 

 

 

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jeslibby
Posted 6/28/2013 14:30 (#3179559 - in reply to #3179446)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Texas
The 765 series has been out awhile from what i've been told. However, the D since 2012. With that many hours might not have been a D. Being that your tractor operator sounds like me (Except the money side) so i really appreciate your thoughts. Also I must commend you for your loyalty to your company. We as a whole the world needs alot more people like you!!! Hats off to you!!!! Jes
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The Pretender
Posted 6/28/2013 15:28 (#3179632 - in reply to #3179559)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


The Internet

The demo tractor was new. 

The man that operates that tractor used to own the cultivation tractor but now just drives it because he just didn't need the hassle in retirement. He also had cancer treatment and the banging around in the cab would have been too much for him. He is a very good man and needs a decent ride. 

Demo tractor, it was a C then... anyway, it was new at the time. Must have been 2011

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durallymax
Posted 6/28/2013 18:45 (#3179890 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Wi
Sounds like you like the deal and the dealer better for the Agco stuff, go for it. I don't think you will have near the issues, many other people don't that are doing the type of work you will be doing. One Agco rep even told me they focus of the row crop guys for the 8600 series, the guys who want to use them for forage or manure should use Fendts instead.

The Tier 4 machines are better, ours has still had plenty of issues, but I think you'll be fine. Having a good dealer is important with any color new machine.
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chocgopher
Posted 6/28/2013 20:59 (#3180119 - in reply to #3179890)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Iowa
durallymax - 6/28/2013 17:45

Sounds like you like the deal and the dealer better for the Agco stuff, go for it. .



The Massey deal is certainly more attractive on a hard dollar basis, but both the Massey and Deere dealerships have given us great service over the years. Both are great salesmen who are a pleasure to deal with. We are blessed to be in an area that has excellent dealerships for Case IH, Deere, Massey and Challenger.
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funfarmr
Posted 6/28/2013 19:02 (#3179916 - in reply to #3178460)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Ohio
You can't beat the ride of the ILS on a Deere..and no one else has it.
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EquipmentUser
Posted 6/28/2013 20:37 (#3180075 - in reply to #3179916)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


KY
The A/C problems you are having with the RT155 are most likely due to contamination in the system. When everything is right it should freeze you out of the cab, very well designed system. Sanden had a bad batch of compressors a few years ago, I remember we had 4 lock up on brand new tractors and one even exploded.

The tension of the CVT lever cannot be changed. I think you will be fine with one of those tractors for what your doing.
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durallymax
Posted 6/28/2013 21:00 (#3180120 - in reply to #3180075)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Wi

EquipmentUser - 6/28/2013 19:37 The A/C problems you are having with the RT155 are most likely due to contamination in the system. When everything is right it should freeze you out of the cab, very well designed system. Sanden had a bad batch of compressors a few years ago, I remember we had 4 lock up on brand new tractors and one even exploded. The tension of the CVT lever cannot be changed. I think you will be fine with one of those tractors for what your doing.


The A/C sucks in our DT275 when it gets warm and you are running low speeds.

The blower in our Tier 4 8680 goes to max speed anytime you push the mic button on the 2 way. it is wired through the 3 prong auxillary plug in the cab.

funfarmr - 6/28/2013 18:02 You can't beat the ride of the ILS on a Deere..and no one else has it.


umm Fendt?  

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EquipmentUser
Posted 6/29/2013 05:37 (#3180696 - in reply to #3180120)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


KY
durallymax - 6/28/2013 21:00

EquipmentUser - 6/28/2013 19:37 The A/C problems you are having with the RT155 are most likely due to contamination in the system. When everything is right it should freeze you out of the cab, very well designed system. Sanden had a bad batch of compressors a few years ago, I remember we had 4 lock up on brand new tractors and one even exploded. The tension of the CVT lever cannot be changed. I think you will be fine with one of those tractors for what your doing.


The A/C sucks in our DT275 when it gets warm and you are running low speeds.

The blower in our Tier 4 8680 goes to max speed anytime you push the mic button on the 2 way. it is wired through the 3 prong auxillary plug in the cab.

funfarmr - 6/28/2013 18:02 You can't beat the ride of the ILS on a Deere..and no one else has it.


umm Fendt?  


The RT's use the same A/C system as the smaller tractors, LT, 5400 Massey, 400 Challenger, etc. They are a little different from the large frame tractors. For your A/C problem you need to unplug the fan so it runs wide open. I had a class in Hesston back in the winter on those tractors and they said that was the solution to the low speed poor cooling problem.
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durallymax
Posted 6/29/2013 11:48 (#3181235 - in reply to #3180696)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Wi
EquipmentUser - 6/29/2013 04:37

durallymax - 6/28/2013 21:00

EquipmentUser - 6/28/2013 19:37 The A/C problems you are having with the RT155 are most likely due to contamination in the system. When everything is right it should freeze you out of the cab, very well designed system. Sanden had a bad batch of compressors a few years ago, I remember we had 4 lock up on brand new tractors and one even exploded. The tension of the CVT lever cannot be changed. I think you will be fine with one of those tractors for what your doing.


The A/C sucks in our DT275 when it gets warm and you are running low speeds.

The blower in our Tier 4 8680 goes to max speed anytime you push the mic button on the 2 way. it is wired through the 3 prong auxillary plug in the cab.

funfarmr - 6/28/2013 18:02 You can't beat the ride of the ILS on a Deere..and no one else has it.


umm Fendt?  


The RT's use the same A/C system as the smaller tractors, LT, 5400 Massey, 400 Challenger, etc. They are a little different from the large frame tractors. For your A/C problem you need to unplug the fan so it runs wide open. I had a class in Hesston back in the winter on those tractors and they said that was the solution to the low speed poor cooling problem.



Wow yet another execellent Agco solution .(sarcasm).
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cordellh
Posted 6/28/2013 20:40 (#3180081 - in reply to #3179916)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


We have a MT565B and I have to say it has been the biggest disappointment we have. We have always had Ford/New Hollands but really wanted a cvt. the transmission has been great, as is the motor - but the tractor has functioned like our government lately. A/C, seat, computer boards going out, pto not working, dash defective. We had almost made a deal on a second one, before all the troubles began, but found out that the 665B with 550 hours we were looking at had spent almost an entire year at Ziegler - explaining a three year old tractor with 550 hrs. Have since went green and haven't looked back. it always works and is a pleasure to drive and use. just my two centavos.
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chocgopher
Posted 6/28/2013 21:54 (#3180284 - in reply to #3179916)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Iowa
funfarmr - 6/28/2013 18:02

You can't beat the ride of the ILS on a Deere..and no one else has it.


During the test drives, I would say that the ride between the two tractors was comparable. Both very smooth. The Deere had the advantage of front and rear duals while the Massey was still set in narrow on singles for shipping. The Deere we drove only had the 26 mile per hour transmission. I pushed the Massey up to 33.4 MPH at 1700 rpm. I am not sure if she had any more left in her, but I wasn't comfortable going any faster on a road I didn't know and in a tractor that I had only been in for 5 minutes.

Both test drives included gravel and paved roads. Field conditions could certainly be different. ILS versus QuadLink with OptiRide cab. Two different approaches to smooth rides that both yield excellent results!
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onion farmer
Posted 6/28/2013 23:10 (#3180508 - in reply to #3180284)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


southeast Washington
There are alot of Massey 74,76,84 and 8600 massey's around here and have been good machines with few problems. They get the power to the ground and have a great ride. With economy PTO they can not be beat in fuel use sometimes using half the fuel of the competition that does not have Eco PTO.
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customfarming
Posted 6/28/2013 23:28 (#3180540 - in reply to #3179916)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Good Ol' East Texas
Um have you seen or driven a Fendt? The 900 series have it and a lot smoother than Deere.
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funfarmr
Posted 6/28/2013 23:44 (#3180564 - in reply to #3180540)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Ohio
customfarming - 6/28/2013 23:28

Um have you seen or driven a Fendt? The 900 series have it and a lot smoother than Deere.


Nope there are no dealers around here....wouldn't buy one if there were. We are 100 percent Deere.
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customfarming
Posted 6/29/2013 00:10 (#3180595 - in reply to #3180564)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Good Ol' East Texas
Then how do you know Deere is better? Must be in denial or brainwashed if you thought Deere was the only one that has a independent front axle suspension.
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The Pretender
Posted 6/29/2013 01:09 (#3180624 - in reply to #3180564)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


The Internet

funfarmr - 6/29/2013 05:44
customfarming - 6/28/2013 23:28 Um have you seen or driven a Fendt? The 900 series have it and a lot smoother than Deere.
Nope there are no dealers around here....wouldn't buy one if there were. We are 100 percent Deere.

 

Beautiful.

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durallymax
Posted 6/29/2013 11:45 (#3181228 - in reply to #3180564)
Subject: Re: AGCO/Massey/Challenger Wheel tractor questions (versus Deere)


Wi
funfarmr - 6/28/2013 22:44

customfarming - 6/28/2013 23:28

Um have you seen or driven a Fendt? The 900 series have it and a lot smoother than Deere.


Nope there are no dealers around here....wouldn't buy one if there were. We are 100 percent Deere.


so your saying you have a very nuetral opinion. sounds like the blinders are on if you dont know what others offer. Nothing wrong with not wanting to knoe, but its best to know before making false statements.

There are dealers somewherr im Ohio because at least on person on here from there runs Fendts and so does Orrs harvesting.

Edited by durallymax 6/29/2013 11:50
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