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Need to buy furnace need advice!
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tillage-director
Posted 1/29/2012 23:43 (#2194353)
Subject: Need to buy furnace need advice!



Central MN
I posted a month or so ago about my furnace not working. Turns out the circut board was shot. Well I came home from the farm today and low and behold the furnace quit working again. I can't run the risk of the furnace not being reliable when and if a real winter shows up.I am affraid that I will be gone for a ffew day and come home to find my pipes froze up. The furnace in the house now is about 15+ years old so I am think I am going to look at a new one because of reliablity and effincey isues. When the furnace guy was out the last time I asked him about a new one and he figured itd be around 2200 for a 90 something efficency model. It would be a goodman furnace. Anyone have any expierence with a Goodman furnace? Is 2k a decent price for one? Anyone have any furnace options/adivce to look for? Never had to buy a furnace before just want to get some advice. Better go get the Knipco set up in the living room now or she might be a little cold by morning just kidding the knipco stays in the garage!
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TD15
Posted 1/29/2012 23:55 (#2194371 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: RE: Need to buy furnace need advice!


I had a Goodman and it only lasted 8 years and the heat exchanger went out. The furnace guy at that time said there were only a few companies making furnaces with different labels. The last one we put in was a Lennox and the reason I put that one in was because the heat exchanger was stainless and it was suppose to have a 20 year guarantee on the exchanger. That was probally five years ago. I'm not sure if that helps you or not , thats just my experiance with ours.
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bleedinred
Posted 1/30/2012 00:13 (#2194394 - in reply to #2194371)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


E Washington
I just put in a new Trane 95% efficient natural gas, model xr95. Price was $2895 installed-$400 back from utility for going with that efficiency. Neighbor installed same nine months ago and cost him $3700! We got thirty years out of the last one installed in '82 for $850. Can you replace the board in yours? Seems a little young to give up on it.
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ILLRick
Posted 1/30/2012 00:06 (#2194386 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


ECIL
We had a Goodman installed a year ago last December. Absolutely no problems and it works very well. The one we got is set up so we can set the fan to run constantly at a reduced speed (don't even realize it's on) which circulates the air through the home constantly via the thermostat setting. This really helps even out the temperature from the basement to the top floor. It's the same temperature throughout the entire home. The original furnace was a 140K btu and was 19 yrs old, 80% (?) efficiency. Our Goodman is 95% and 84K btu. It heats with less fuel and more evenly. Very good warranty too, but I think it neeeds to be professionally installed for the warranty. If you don't already have one, get an Aprilaire central humidifier installed at the same time. They are reliable and work well to moisten the air in the winter. $2K sounds right for pricing. Are any energy tax credits still available?

While we were at it we also replaced the central air unit with a Goodman. It is a 17 SEER and kept the home cool easier than the old unit with less cost. Likewise we are very happy with it.
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Gerald J.
Posted 1/30/2012 00:39 (#2194410 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!



One place proposed a Goodman. Somehow I didn't like it and went with the Trane XR95 with a Seer 16 AC. Cost two years ago was about $7K and so far its running on half the fuel the old Lennox (complete with a cracked heat exchanger) use per winter.

Gerald J.
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JohnW
Posted 1/30/2012 02:26 (#2194447 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: RE: Need to buy furnace need advice!


NW Washington
Go for a name brand like Trane, Carrier or Lennox. We had to put in a new furnace about 5 years ago and went with a Carrier and so far we have had zero problems. And buy from dealer you like and trust. I also passed the high tech models with variable flame levels and fan speeds which sounded troublesome to me.
Someone said that every thing in a house wears out in about 20 years and there is a lot truth to that.
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Mike SE IL
Posted 1/30/2012 03:58 (#2194465 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: RE: Need to buy furnace need advice!



West Union, Illinois

If your really concerned about reliability you need a separate system not needing electricity.  How depends on what you want to accomplish and how.  For instance, a basement might be kept warm with a non-vented propane wall heater, although I would prefer a vented stove of some kind.  I stumbled across this serchin for pictures.  It was designed for a boat and pulls combustin air from outside and is sealed. Very interesting design for a small area. (from http://tinyhouseblog.com/tiny-house/tiny-houses-and-indoor-air-qual...)

It could be set to come on only if it got down to 50 or so. A couple heaters placed strategically in the house might not keep it fully comfortable, but might keep it from freezing during a power failure or furnace break down.

We have a non-vented free standing gas fireplace in our living room similar to this one.

It's an old house and a cold north wind really chills the room. Poor fresh air exchange is not a concern. If it gets too cold the burner turns on.

They make mantles to go around ventless heaters to make them pretty. A friend heats his house with a couple of these

You can get as fancy as you desire.  Backup heat doesn't have to be ugly.

My experiences with high efficiency furnaces is the question is when it will fail, not if.  I was talking with a friend in the propane business last week about an installation in some new construction.  They have the fuel, but someone else got the bid for the furnace.  He said the new furnace (a brand neither of us particularly care for) is being a nightmare because safety controls on the fuel line require more pressure regulation than can be provided.  The furnace requires the pressure be regulated to within 1/10th of an inch water column pressure.  That basically means plus or minus a baby's breath. If the pressure is out of spec (and I guarantee it will be at some point) the furnace shuts down and locks out.

I currently have 2 supplemental heaters, one at each end of the house.  I'm considering adding a third just to guarantee w can keep the house warm if the furnace fails or the electricity goes out.  We were celebrating the anniversary of the blizzard of 1978 this past week.  It kind of brings thoughts like that to mind.



Edited by Mike SE IL 1/30/2012 20:04
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mmaddox
Posted 1/30/2012 06:17 (#2194480 - in reply to #2194465)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


The bulk of the furnaces are built by one of two companies, and re-badged and/or completed by the final seller. Regardless of the brand, there are different levels or quality and price, it's unfair to paint all with a broad brush. As Mike said, if you are truly concerned about a heating failure, a back-up source and/or an alarm system system is a good choice. We have both, current electronics make such very affordable. Depending on size requirements, two smaller units might be used instead of one larger. Additional spot type heat sources can be a good choice. Either electrical units, wood burning, or gas. A gas fireplace requiring no electricity could be an excellent choice. As someone else mentioned, the controls of new units are not as robust as one would hope, expect, or be used to. Hot surface igniters and solid state control modules can be troublesome and hard to find.
It's been a couple of years ago, but I put a new 99% furnace, 15 SEER A/C system, and humidifier in a daughter's house for under $2,000 in materials. Look at Goodman and Comfortmaker, in one of their better, higher end models.
The mention of the blizzard of January 1978 brings back memories, plowed roads to get my wife to the hospital for the birth of our first child, next day did it again to get her Mother in, and the next day the same to get wife and child back home. Then saw nothing but white for the next three days. At the time, had nothing with a cab to move that amount of snow, but did the next year. Sure a big difference between then and an open winter like this year.
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John SD
Posted 1/30/2012 09:38 (#2194705 - in reply to #2194465)
Subject: RE: Need to buy furnace need advice!



Mike, we had a couple non-vented propane heaters installed in our church this winter. Purchased them from the Northern catalog and installed by our LP man. The heateres are directly across from each other on the east and west wall toward the front of the sanctuary. We also have a smaller non-vented/non-thermostat heater at the rear of the church. So far this winter they have done the job fine, but this winter hasn't put them to the test.

We still have the old floor furnace hooked up and functional. It will cook you out no matter how cold it gets but the pilot is finicky about the wind blowing it out. It's a chore to go under the church in the crawl space and relight it. Now anyone can turn the heat on.
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Russ In Idaho
Posted 1/30/2012 04:41 (#2194467 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: RE: Need to buy furnace need advice!


Very little experience here, but I've just had to deal with my father-in-law's Lennox Pulse this winter. It's quit him twice this winter. But is would start and run about 5 hours later. The repairmen shake their heads as to what the problem is, they think it is the fiber material (disc) that controls air flow. So it was changed yesterday. Also thought it might be the main control for it, will have to wait and see if it fails again. This Lennox has been in over 15-17 years I'm thinking, time does go by fast. We put a Goodman A/C unit on this furnace about 4 years ago no problems with it.

Over seven years ago my building contractor put a Comfort Air system in my new home, well in the first two years the main controller went out on furnace, the A/C condenser unit was leaking from day one. He told me they wouldn't warranty it, on the second year I just replaced it. My propane supplier does most all my service work, he felt the Comfort Air was on the cheaper side. He can't buy parts for a Lennox, they have to come from a Lennox dealer.

The best running furnaces I've seen are the cheap Coleman furnaces in my mobile homes on the farm. I know of two of them running over 30 years. Only put blower motors on them, one had to put an upper limit switch on it.

I guess the only thing I really have to add is, I would put what ever you can get service for. What is your repairman comfortable with, do they stock parts? I do know I might look into the Coleman line for a replacement for mine, after the good luck I've had on those cheaper units in the mobile homes that came with the homes.

You might look into putting an alarm system that calls your phone to tell you heat is off, or put in a backup system in ( just those electric portable heaters that have thermostats on them) hoping they will come on in the event main goes off if you are going to be gone for days at a time. I would also look at plumbing an easy water shut off in home right where water comes into home, that you would turn off if leaving for a few weeks at a time. That way if all heat is off, at least pipes wouldn't flood home in the event a pipe burst. Lot easier to just turn a water valve on, than fix flood damage. Also while I'm thinking about it, a person needs to change washing machine hoses, every so often. I've seen those fail and home homes while people are on vacation, I make it a point to turn water off to washing machine if leaving for an extended time.
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NoTill1825
Posted 1/30/2012 07:48 (#2194531 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: RE: Need to buy furnace need advice!


NC Indiana
Mom and Dad's furnace died in Dec. Ended up costing $1800 for a new unit and pvc out the chimney. Don't know the brand.
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wannabe2
Posted 1/30/2012 07:50 (#2194536 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


NW Montana
Trane and American Standard are the same company and and is a good company. Goodman is now making a good product and should be cheaper than Trane as the wholesale cost is less in comparable models. I would recommend you get a model with 2 stage operation as it will be more comfortable and a little more efficient in actual operation. http://www.goodmanmfg.com/ResidentialProducts/GasFurnaces/95AFUEGMH...
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John In Ontario
Posted 1/30/2012 08:37 (#2194606 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!



Ripley, Ontario Canada
I burn oil, not gas because that is all that is available here (I could do propane). I got quotes for a new furnace a couple years ago for about 3 grand installed for a 120 000btu mid efficient oil. My service guy who has worked on furnaces all his life, and now only works part time and only cleans furnaces (semi retired no heavy jobs no nights) was saying they have a lot more trouble with the really high efficiency furnaces, especially the side vent ones with icing and sensors not working, etc. he said I would be happier with a 85% efficiency furnace with a chimney. I would have a lot less trouble with a furnace like that.
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mmaddox
Posted 1/30/2012 10:45 (#2194836 - in reply to #2194606)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


Your guy is right, less controls do mean less problems. Have a S-I-L that is in charge of stove design at a major builder, he says the most trouble free stove is the one designed and built in Mexico. Very simple, and NOT available in the States. Go figure.
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ayrporte
Posted 1/30/2012 09:28 (#2194690 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


Eastern Ont
Brother just put in a propane furnace cost 1250 bucks that is cost
circuit board in said furnace is 780
go figure
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9600Sidehill
Posted 1/30/2012 10:21 (#2194789 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


Idaho
I just had my furnace worked on last week. It was installed in 99. The fan was running all the time and no heat was coming out. Repairman thought it was the board and started taking the board out so he could test it. He then noticed a limit switch that kick the heating elements off if it gets above 210 degrees. That is what it was. The switch is a safety deal to where the furnace can't get to hot. The fan stays on to cool the furnace down and it is supposed to reset once it drops to 180 degrees. It didn't... New board was a couple hundred dollars. Switch was $30. Glad it was the switch. Didn't know if you were having a similar problem...

Good luck!
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flyndeere
Posted 1/30/2012 12:38 (#2194997 - in reply to #2194789)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


central illinois
You get what you pay for ,
been in the heating business for 40 years stick with Lennox, Trane or





Been it the heating business 40 years, stick with Lennox, Trane, Carries in that order you won't go wrong,







Been in the heating business 40 years, yor can't go wrong with Lennox,Trane or Carrier in that order

Goodman in the bottom of the barrel you get what you pay for.


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Mike SE IL
Posted 1/30/2012 20:03 (#2195640 - in reply to #2194997)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!



West Union, Illinois

flyndeere - Lennox,Trane or Carrier in that order Goodman in the bottom of the barrel you get what you pay for.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion.  IMHO the only techs who like Lennox are Lennox dealers. Grandpa had one of those things that sounded like a jet plane was taking off in the basement.  I think it was one of the ones recalled because the combustion chamber kept coming apart or rotting out.  I mentioned earlier a new furnace so picky they couldn't get it to run.  I think he said it was a Lennox.

I didn't see enough Trane or Carrier when I was doing service to comment.  My opinion of Goodman was similar to yours, but I am told they have improved.  Bottom on my list was the old Coleman mobile home furnaces.  I remember spending a New Year's Day replacing one because for some reason it had sooted up and there was no way to clean it.  New ones I think have improved as well.

I personally prefer Rheem and Ruud (same furnace, different name).  They are kind of the Chevrolet or Ford of furnaces.  Not fancy, work OK, fixable, good value for the money.  You can spend more, but it isn't really justifiable.

Newer ones with the spark ignitor seem to be less troublesome than the old hot surface ignitors.



Edited by Mike SE IL 1/30/2012 20:05
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detroitdiesel
Posted 1/30/2012 12:55 (#2195016 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


Chillicothe, Missouri
I would highly recommend a Highy Effiency propane furnance, we have had great luck with ours, they are power vent, about a 4 inch PVE pipe through the wall to vent the exhaust. normally we will burn less than 800 gallons of propane in a complete winter.

we are a little further south in North Missouri
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farmdude
Posted 1/30/2012 13:36 (#2195075 - in reply to #2195016)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


I wonder whaqt the reason was for getting rid off the pilot light. They never gave any trouble. But these new ignitors are very problematic. Neighbor has reeplace I dont know how many. An its costly. Never had a problem with my pilot light.. Its probably innefficient but have had no trouble with it. I liked how it kept the chamber an the burners dry in the summer when you werent using it.
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Mike SE IL
Posted 1/30/2012 19:49 (#2195600 - in reply to #2195075)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!



West Union, Illinois

farmdude - I wonder whaqt the reason was for getting rid off the pilot light. They never gave any trouble. But these new ignitors are very problematic.
The same folks who got rid of the pilot light brought you the curly light bulbs.  High efficeincy should be a choice, not a mandate.  The reasoning was a million pilot lights buring a little gas over the summer totals up to a lot of gas when you see the big picture.  Whether they were seeing the picture through clear or colored lenses is an opinion (and you may guess what mine it).

OK, off my soap box and back on topic. There are 2 factors (actually maybe more) when discussing why igniters instead of pilot lights.  One is economics.  Let's say you burn 1000 galons of propane a winter.  If you can reduce that 100 gallons (I'm just pulling esy to use numbers for an example.  I don't have a clue what the reduction in actual consumption might be) what is your annual savings? If you are running an old 50% efficient Warm Morning type stove the payback is even faster.

The second is tied to the first.  If you reduced the use you reduce the demand for fuel

Third (I said there mght be more) is a high efficiency furnace scavenges most of the heat from the exhaust which means less global warming.

Fourth is job security.  If I sell you a high efficency furnace I know you are going to need parts.

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tillage-director
Posted 1/30/2012 19:46 (#2195594 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!



Central MN
UPDATE I got it fixed today turn out the little control box was shot. Now it has new electronics in it hopefully it will be good for awhile. I am getting a bid to replace it but I dunno if I will. Ill see what the bid comes in at as I also want a couple other things moved around ( moving some ducting around and move the furnace about 10 feet) in order to start a basement finishing project.
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Brad J
Posted 1/30/2012 23:34 (#2196266 - in reply to #2194353)
Subject: Re: Need to buy furnace need advice!


Tangent, OR
Mine is a Johnson controls I bought straight from the supply house. I'm doing commercial construction and found out you can order sticker kits for the unit that says York, Coleman, luxaire, and something else. They're all the same with different features enabled or disabled on the circuit boards. For as inexpensive as it was I can deal with a few repairs if they come up, 2 seasons on it now with zero problems. 98.6 efficient natural gas condensing.
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