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Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel
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ROJOGA
Posted 2/11/2010 16:41 (#1070041)
Subject: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel




On our way back from hauling a load of Bermuda Grass hay to one of our customers, sitting in the median was an unmarked blue car, tinted out. After about 300 yards I noticed the car pull out in traffic (I Knew I Was Not Speeding). Out came the big 'Fat' boy in blue and handed me a slip of paper : IRS Off road fuel Inspection.
He asked a few questions, looked over driver's license and said he was about to perform a fuel inspection looking for red-dye off road fuel in my tank.
I told him for two years after our Governor (Georgia) was in office, he mandated it Legal for farmers to run off road but that has since changed.
Pulled out a clear plastic tube, insert in tank, out comes the sample and guess what???
Green as spring wheat...
Officer turned and saw another truck headed north and said "have good day, I'm headed to check him out"
QUESTION??
What are the fines (exactly) for running off road on the highway? The information I found stated $1,000 dollars for state and $1,000 for IRS and the difference between the two fuel type taxes.
Any one care to elaborate?
Thanks
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eddiedry
Posted 2/11/2010 16:55 (#1070052 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Wheatley, Arkansas
I've never had a fine for offroad in a highway vehicle, but I've had neighbors get caught and pay fines in the tens of thousands, so they said.
A lot probably depends on how hard they want to press the issue, and how belligerent the accused party is. I don't want to find out what the fines could be either.
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iseedit
Posted 2/11/2010 17:04 (#1070063 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: RE: Edit - Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



central - east central Minnesota -

ROJOGA - 2/11/2010 15:41  QUESTION?? What are the fines (exactly) for running off road on the highway? The information I found stated $1,000 dollars for state and $1,000 for IRS and the difference between the two fuel type taxes. Any one care to elaborate? Thanks

The fuel tax rates vary by state . . .Here is a list of gas and diesel fuels tax rates .  .  http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/DIESEL_TAX_MAP_JAN2010.pdf

Farm fuels (red dyed) has no tax . . .

If a person only has one fuel tank on the farm and burns that fuel in their vehicles and farm machinery, you can buy all (taxed fuel) - you then can claim the fuel tax back from state on your yr end tax statement for the farm fuel used during the year . . . . You just need to keep track of the gals used on the farm and used in your vehicles, on the road . .  .

Edit'd: Edited for correct info - and a better tax chart by state on diesel . . . sorry



Edited by iseedit 2/11/2010 18:23
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Minor Family Farms
Posted 2/11/2010 17:39 (#1070093 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Kingston, Ohio
One of our neighbors told me that he was fined $5000. He was moving a header wagon and was flagged by the sheriff.
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myfarm
Posted 2/11/2010 18:14 (#1070129 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



I guess I a way behind on laws here, but I thought the federal tax was applied to all diesel regardless of color, so I am comfused as to why the IRS would be checking. Maybe I had start researching the laws, but I thought in this state that farm fuel was only exempt from state tax.
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eth555
Posted 2/11/2010 18:22 (#1070140 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


SE MN
Here is a link to the Minnesota State Patrols Dyed fuel webpage. It answers some of the questions that have been asked. I am not sure if it only applies to MN or not but should hopefully help!

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/patrol/comveh/dyedfuel/index.htm
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2510
Posted 2/11/2010 18:32 (#1070158 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Remember...all branches of government are broke.

They will take any and every opportunity to "fleece the flock."
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JimmyR52
Posted 2/11/2010 19:42 (#1070265 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Mooresville North Carolina
A friend was caught with off-road in his pick up. There was a fine for that. He had to show receipts for all the legal fuel he should have used for the miles on the truck. The total fine was $25,000.00. That was in North Carolina.
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MN Dave 2
Posted 2/11/2010 19:59 (#1070303 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Here in Mn I've heard of DOT checkpoints set up near farm auctions (large #s of big pickups), I've heard of a neighbor who was caught with the dyed fuel in semi, the DOT then went to his farm and checked other trucks. I've heard the $10,000 figure also. I don't want to find out.
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tj_farmer
Posted 2/11/2010 20:12 (#1070326 - in reply to #1070303)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


NW central IL
i was told its based off the gallons at your farm, dont know if there is any truth to it....makes more sense for gallons/miles on vehicle
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PeteMN
Posted 2/11/2010 20:48 (#1070386 - in reply to #1070326)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


E.Central MN
I can understand making it a stiff fine for being caught with dyed fuel on the road, but basing it on the miles on the vehicle is ridiculous. Isn't that convicting you of a crime that they have no evidence of. Whatever happened to a presumption of innocence? Instead you are asked to prove that you are innocent??? I think its time they did away with the farm dyed fuel, make farmers deduct the taxes at the end of the year. Maybe then they could put those fuel cops to work doing something useful like writing up parking tickets.....suppose they'll say that the car may have been parked in that spot for the entire time that you've owned the car, prove that it wasn't.
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eddiedry
Posted 2/11/2010 22:05 (#1070578 - in reply to #1070386)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Wheatley, Arkansas

Whatever happened to a presumption of innocence?

I think that went away when they pulled dyed fuel out of the fuel tank of a highway vehicle.

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95h
Posted 2/11/2010 22:27 (#1070638 - in reply to #1070386)
Subject: Re: something doesn't smell right here..Diesel is taxed twice by the government ???


Kittitas Co. Wa. State

So you want farmers to pay road taxes on diesel, ie fund the Government roads ?? 

Ok,,, I guess but that serves to fund the roads more and gives farmers and thier farm equipment all the more right to use the roads.

That senerio is as bad as fining someone for all the miles on a vehicle.

 

Friend has a fishing guide service. Several gas engines,, He has to pay "pump price" for the gas, and hang on to every stinking receipt. Then at the end of the year he has to submit all his receipts to the State for reimbursement of the taxes. He usually gets a check for around $1200.00 4-6 months later.

He effectively is loaning the state $1200.00 for 16-18 months interest free.

Now take all the Ag. sector and figure the gallons burned in a year.. Want to loan the Government that much MORE money for 16-18 months interest free.??


Now if I read correctly the entire nation pays a federal tax of .242 cents/gal on diesel.

 

So I don't understand how the Federalies could be fining people for off road diesel. The federal tax looks like it applies to everyone, on or off road.  

 

 



Edited by 95h 2/11/2010 22:41




(diesel tax.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments diesel tax.jpg (54KB - 699 downloads)
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Gerald J.
Posted 2/11/2010 23:06 (#1070731 - in reply to #1070638)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



The fed tax is refunded the same way for farm use, not necessarily for boating use. See IRS form 4136.

Gerald J.
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95h
Posted 2/12/2010 00:02 (#1070847 - in reply to #1070731)
Subject: Re: Think you may have missed my point..??


Kittitas Co. Wa. State

In the gas example I gave about boat fuel taxes that only refers to the "state taxes" he can't get the federal taxes paid back.  

The chart I put up did not delinate on/off road, was ALL diesel and Fed tax. 

Off road is only dyed at the point where Tankers are filled at refinery's for either on/off road correct?  no totally seperate delivery system correct?  I recall fuel being delivered to local supplier and they had to deliniate on/off road.

The one link plainly stated there is an additional federal tax on top of all state taxes on Gas. (didn't include diesel) but the link I found same site did state there was fed taxes on all diesel sold. Nothing was mentioned about on/off road, said "all diesel".

So, my question is still kind of the same, all gas is has Fed. taxes. same site say's all Diesel has Fed taxes.  Then the Diesel is dyed at refinery to delinate off road, which is delivered to local supplier.

So, all gas and diesel is Federally taxed,, then Off road diesel is dyed to delinate it as off road diesel.

So, to the case in point the 2 IRS pinheads stopped a truck and dipped the tank, dyed-off road.. but refering back to federal diesel tax.. ALL diesel was federally taxed at refinery, then dyed as off road.

I'm sure it's the local supplier that actually sends in the taxes granted. But I bet the gallons sold at the refinery are kept track of for taxes.

I would be real curious to know if the site is correct and all diesel is taxed federally then dyed then claimed "ah hah,, dyed,, off road fuel you didn't pay the federal taxes".

I'm probably not explaining it as well as I should ??   My lack of faith leads me to believe ALL diesel is federally taxed, then either dyed or not dyed.

 

clear as mud ?

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eddiedry
Posted 2/12/2010 00:12 (#1070861 - in reply to #1070847)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Wheatley, Arkansas
All fuel is taxed. Farm fuel isn't charged ''road tax'' an additional tax on fuel that is collected through the terminal.

Road diesel is @ 2.80 a gallon here, Farm diesel is @2.25, the difference is the ''road use'' tax.

Sales tax is added in also!
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95h
Posted 2/12/2010 09:23 (#1071169 - in reply to #1070861)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Kittitas Co. Wa. State

Off road sales tax was dropped "here" it was higher than the "road use" tax.

After checking Wa. is like 3rd highest gas/diesel taxed state in union.

Just give our darling legislators a chance,, I'm sure they'll try harder seeings how we're number 3 !! 

Lmao !!

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jeff gordon
Posted 2/11/2010 22:20 (#1070618 - in reply to #1070303)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Mather, Manitoba
yup, I've been to one of those auction sales that the DOT have cornered. Not that far from Ada, MN. I'm from MB and I waited in the yard until 1 hour past sunset before I had the balls to leave. We can run dyed in MB farm licensed vehicles.
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95h
Posted 2/11/2010 22:32 (#1070648 - in reply to #1070618)
Subject: Re: You would have been safe Jeff,,


Kittitas Co. Wa. State
Just carry a copy of the rules governing Canada, and with Ca. plates there isn't much the US pinheads could do about it.
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Tim(nj)
Posted 2/12/2010 00:35 (#1070882 - in reply to #1070648)
Subject: Re: You would have been safe Jeff,,


Pittstown, NJ
I'm not sure. New Jersey often enforces its regs on vehicles registered elsewhere (they especially love to pick on western semis with straight pipes) and fighting in court doesn't get you far. Friend who moved to Montana came back with his truck to pick up something. Got ticketed for running board lights, which for some reason unknown to me have been illegal in NJ for years. He used the argument that the truck was registered in MT and they were legal there, cop wrote him up anyway. Well, going back home without going to court wasn't a good idea, as NJ put a warrant out for him in MT. All over running board lights. And they complain that our courts are clogged?
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95h
Posted 2/12/2010 09:18 (#1071157 - in reply to #1070882)
Subject: Re:bummer,, stoopid cops in N.J.


Kittitas Co. Wa. State

If you carry a copy of the C.A. law about On/off road fuel It would take a pretty stoopid cop to write a ticket. (proof it's legal to run off/on road fuel)

Too bad your friend didn't pay attention and fight the dumb ticket instead just thinking it would go away. He would have won in traffic court pretty easy. Judge was not too bright either signing a warrant over something as trivial as running board lights. Any 1/2 smart Judge would have said, "are you kidding?? dismissed".

It would be the same as showing proof of insurance and your veh registration when stopped. Only dumb cops would write a ticket for no proof of insurance or registation after being shown both during a stop.

I've know enough intelligence challenged cops over the years,, I tend to question their judgement and actions.  Nope I'm not a ticket "collector" either, only gotten 2 tickets in my life neither for speeding, challenged both, both were dismissed...

Feel sorry for ya living in New Jersey.

 

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eth555
Posted 2/11/2010 20:59 (#1070416 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


SE MN
From the MN State Patrol website

"The Clean Air Act specifies a penalty of up to $25,000 per day per violation. The Internal Revenue Code specifies a penalty of $1,000 or $10 per gallon of dyed fuel involved, whichever is greater, plus payment of the tax. The penalty increases with additional violations. The States may impose penalties on top of any Federal levies."
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HT67
Posted 2/11/2010 21:10 (#1070448 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: RE: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Virginia
Do a google search on " fines for using dyed diesel fuel in on road vehicles" and a lot of answers can be found.
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TXCUTTER
Posted 2/11/2010 21:44 (#1070522 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


I have first hand experience in this area. DONT DO IT!!! You are fined on a gallon basis. Any car/truck with a tank of less than 100 gallons is fined for 100 gallons reguardless of tank size. I will tell you all this, if you are caught, its lots better off to tell them you stole the diesel than to tell them where you actually got it----what tank it came from, becuase your ass will get fined for the amount that that tank holds as well. county,state, and federal fines were imposed on ME!
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srsu99
Posted 2/11/2010 21:59 (#1070557 - in reply to #1070522)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Central / West Texas
I find it hard to believe that someone would let them on private land to inspect there other vehicles. For $25k fine I would definetly be seeking legal consil to get that fine lowered. Sometimes red fuel is all thats available and its better than pushing. We have been told that equipment that we road from one place to the next must have clear over the road fuel. Yeah like thats gonna happen.
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eddiedry
Posted 2/11/2010 22:15 (#1070603 - in reply to #1070557)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Wheatley, Arkansas

I find it hard to believe that someone would let them on private land to inspect there other vehicles 

It's amazing the authority a federal agent has huh?

 

Sometimes red fuel is all that's available and its better than pushing.

If that's the case, all the vehicles in the lot wouldn't have dyed fuel in them would they?

We have been told that equipment that we road from one place to the next must have clear over the road fuel

That sounds like BS to me, but Texas might have such a law on the books. I bet it doesn't get enforced much, what do you think?

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srsu99
Posted 2/11/2010 22:37 (#1070660 - in reply to #1070603)
Subject: Well Les


Central / West Texas
The only people that are allowed on a land without search warrant that I know of are game wardens.  Thats who the law usually gets to come out if they dont want to take the time to go through the courts.  Yeah I am gonna call bs on the dyed fuel in tractors being roaded from one place to another story, just something I heard at a pipeline safety meeting.  We generally haul everything anyhow so dont worry about that.  If the DOT is sitting on the side of the road pulling over every pickup pulling a trailer isnt that profiling?  Was the straw that they pulled the sample with sterile?  Was there a witness?  We have had a few go rounds with the DOT.  One thing I for sure know about them is if you get pulled over they sure dont like if you get out and meet them at their car, but I still do it.
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mike85
Posted 2/11/2010 22:01 (#1070564 - in reply to #1070522)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


E.C. IA
Don't run dyed fuel in your trucks and there is nothing to worry about. Am I missing something here?
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semosandfarmer
Posted 2/11/2010 22:48 (#1070688 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



East Prairie, MO
I didn't read the whole thread here but a D.O.T. officer that lives down the road told me it was $100/gallon that the vehicle would hold. I have no idea how true that is.

Edited by semosandfarmer 2/11/2010 22:49
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missouri9170
Posted 2/11/2010 23:31 (#1070788 - in reply to #1070688)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


MO
I know someone who recently got pulled over in his old ford with a bale bed while feeding cows. A county deputy pulled him over, but he had an IRS agent with him. Dipped his tank and guess what.......fuel is just as red as the truck. The fine was supposed to be something like $3,000, but he is fighting it. We'll see. He had not broken any traffic laws and the officer did not take any time to inspect the vehicle for any other violations........they went straight for the fuel tank.......profiling maybe???
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eddiedry
Posted 2/11/2010 23:44 (#1070820 - in reply to #1070788)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



Wheatley, Arkansas
Pro-filing? You bet, and it's legal too!

Edited by eddiedry 2/11/2010 23:44
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man of steel
Posted 2/12/2010 07:35 (#1070985 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: RE: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel



MI

It's very simple. Don't steal from your neighbor.

That's what you are doing when you run dyed fuel where you shouldn't be running it.

I can understand an emergency.



Edited by man of steel 2/12/2010 07:38
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PeteMN
Posted 2/12/2010 23:39 (#1072344 - in reply to #1070985)
Subject: RE: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


E.Central MN
There is no emergency exception. Its zero tolerance.
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TWB
Posted 2/12/2010 08:34 (#1071066 - in reply to #1070041)
Subject: RE: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


Middle Tennessee
Moral of this story is not to run dye farm fuel in road vehicles, don't let your fuel tanks get that low, that you have to put dye fuel in them. The fines are enough reason for not burning dye farm fuel in my diesel truck. You can buy alot of road fuel for what the fines cost, at least I can.
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5288
Posted 2/12/2010 12:25 (#1071431 - in reply to #1071066)
Subject: Re: Pulled by DOT hauling hay / off-road Diesel


S.E. South Dakota
Run clear fuel and end of trouble.
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