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Mole plow drainage?
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John Smith
Posted 2/11/2024 04:27 (#10618177)
Subject: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois

Wondering about Mole drainage?
We need some internal soil drainage to mitigate sodium issues.
Good tile outlets are scarce.
The topsoil is not exactly deep enough for tile.
More so, the clay subsoil is not exactly suited for lateral water flow.
I suppose that the subsoil is more suited for mole drainage.
I suppose that gravel could be used for a French outlet.
Has anyone tried Mole drainage?.



Edited by John Smith 2/11/2024 04:56




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GrainTrader
Posted 2/11/2024 07:47 (#10618347 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana		I’d be careful. I saw those and the first thing I thought about was hitting old tiles that still work fine I was unaware of.
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oldbones
Posted 2/12/2024 07:57 (#10619873 - in reply to #10618347)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



Floyd County, Iowa		Aren't the tile a bit deeper? How deep does a mole ripper go? From picture, not that deep, but pictures can be deceiving.
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Tiler
Posted 2/11/2024 08:47 (#10618458 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


SCIA		Tell me about your subsoil and shallow top soil.
If you want, give me a call, tommorrow.
Iowa State said tile will not work, in our soils.
They will and do, just not five foot deep and 80' apart.
64ONE three 44 ONE7two3
Tom
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MGfarms12
Posted 2/11/2024 10:29 (#10618626 - in reply to #10618458)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Western, IL		Tiler is right….. we have heard that story about some farms even around us where drainage is common.


Hear that it’s too tight……won’t flow water. Go in there and put laterals on 40 foot or closer spacing and wow, it works just fine.

While I do think I have read on here that those mole plows can do some good I really think if you pull a plow across the ground a pipe should go in.

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hillfarmer
Posted 2/11/2024 08:54 (#10618473 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



as long as your subsoil is a bit more porous then the "Paulding clay" in NW ohio

the tile will help

lots of "electric lift stations " in the Saginaw valley
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Kneedeep 2011
Posted 2/11/2024 09:34 (#10618536 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


North Mississippi Delta / Alabama Gulf Coast		I use a parabolic ripper to drain wet spots into a ditch running through the farm.
Thinking about attaching a 3 or 4 inch mole to create a channel.
Sounds good on paper, hopefully it would work.
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banders
Posted 2/11/2024 17:20 (#10619099 - in reply to #10618536)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


If you can just rip the soil the way the field slopes if the field is not too steep . Landlord used a single shank, but ripping the whole area works great.
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wcfields
Posted 2/11/2024 19:26 (#10619267 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


Chatham Ontario.		My father bought a 3pth mole plow when I was in my teens. We always seemed to be compacting our fields from harvesting veg crops either wet or late in the fall. We just didn't have enough tile drainage. He thought it would be better than nothing. I tried to find out the theory ( this is way before the internet). The reading I found was out of Europe. If I remember right, your sub soils need to have a very high clay content. Then you run the mole when the subsoil is about as wet as you can get through the field ,basically smearing the channel in place to make it stable enough to last several years. Our sub soils had some clay but we couldn't bring ourselves to mud the field anymore than it already was. We actually waited for a dry period to fracture the messes we made. We have some very heavy clay farms in our county. They have all been improved with very intensive tiling,down to 15 ft spacing. Some take several years after that investment for the earthworms to find the energy to dig down to tile depth. Lol.
Just something to think about.
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Phil N
Posted 2/11/2024 20:10 (#10619372 - in reply to #10619267)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


I think that's a good summary wcfields, but I wanted to add that Mole Plowing is often used in England perpendicular to an existing tile drainage system on 40-50' centers. The moles were often around 24" deep and around 10' apart within fields with a moist clay subsoil.

Lots of more recently tiled fields in England have gravel backfill, so the moles would run through the gravel to dump the water into the tiles below the gravel. Mole plowing is well researched to improve drainage speed, but without a good field drainage system I don't think mole drainage would benefit much.

Edited to add photo of backfilling behind tiling machine. I found the image on the internet, but it shows the process.

Edited by Phil N 2/11/2024 20:11




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John Smith
Posted 2/12/2024 06:30 (#10619749 - in reply to #10619372)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois

Thanks,
Sounds good,
Not sure where to find the equipment to backfill with gravel like this?
Probably need to run an open trench and use a skid steer to place the gravel.
Just gathering information for now.

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Phil N
Posted 2/12/2024 08:35 (#10619954 - in reply to #10619749)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


You would need some kind of hopper and belt feeder to achieve any capacity per day, as it needs to follow the tiling machine. The hopper which pulls behind the tiling machine sets the depth of the top of the gravel, to around 18" below the soil surface.
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duals
Posted 2/11/2024 20:43 (#10619421 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


southwestern illinois		I have one on an antique john deere #20 killifer ripper built in the 40's in my collection. I also have the original sales literature for it with amazing photos complete with the "mole".I have used it at tractor shows and we actually set an "R" john deere on a serious wheelie pulling it. It ,ight work but every one prefers a more permanent solution with tile. good luck
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gpsdude
Posted 2/11/2024 22:17 (#10619583 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


NE South Dakota Clark, SD		If you are serious about this, talk to Marlin at https://kombagservices.ca/mole-plows.html It is going to work best on grade with an outlet. I think your soils will benefit from tile, but going to have to be fairly narrow spacing and on the shallow end of the depth spectrum.
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John Smith
Posted 2/11/2024 22:24 (#10619590 - in reply to #10619583)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois

This one does look the best.
The others are more like a sled.
The 40 Caliber is more like a tile plow.
Maybe it takes a GPS grade controller?
The others just follow the ground contours.

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gpsdude
Posted 2/12/2024 17:44 (#10620669 - in reply to #10619590)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


NE South Dakota Clark, SD		Yes it was design the maintain grade just like a tile plow. Marlin is a pretty good guy. He is also a dealer for our products in Canada.
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KDD
Posted 2/12/2024 08:42 (#10619969 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



Leesburg, Ohio		There is a very good reason you don't see any of these "moles" around. They don't work. It would be like peeing in the ocean.

And those that say tile will not work probably have not tried it.

In Ohio, there are two regions where for decades, everyone said tile would not work, including some university types.
Farmers have since found out that tile DOES work, if installed properly.
In shallow, tight, high clay soils, that means installed shallow and close together: 20" deep and 20-30 apart. It works in that NW Ohio Paulding clay someone mentioned above. And they are finding out that it even works in the Clermont "crawdad" soils near Cincinnati.

And those who say they have no outlet just means they have no outlet at the edge of the field without spending money to install a good main as far as it takes to GET TO a good outlet. EVERY field has an outlet somewhere, otherwise it would be a lake. Sometimes (often actually) it takes a few thousand feet of main installed through a neighbor or two to get to that good outlet. Good neighbors will split the cost, since it benefits both of them.
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John Smith
Posted 2/12/2024 09:33 (#10620064 - in reply to #10619969)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois

I do have a couple of situations that probably could work.
HEL fields, with a valley running through the middle.
Bury a main up the valley and back fill with gravel.
Run a Mole Plow through the area.
I have several other situations that will probably never work.

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KDD
Posted 2/12/2024 13:00 (#10620336 - in reply to #10620064)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



Leesburg, Ohio		So lets think about this....

A so-called "mole plow" is pulled through the soil to supposedly create a passageway that will drain water out of the soil profile. Just like a tile, i suppose? Except without the tile?
What happens to a tile that has a fault, crack, or failure? It usually fills with dirt, and plugs, right?
And so you are telling me that a drainage path through the soil, with no tile or structure whatsoever so hold the passage open will stay open enough to let water drain through it???
I don't think so....

Even if it did stay open long enough to work temporarily, why would I go the all the trouble and cost to pull a "mole plow" across a field and pay for the time, fuel, wear, and tear on equipment, when I could be installing tile by pulling a tile plow over those same acres, instead of some voo-doo mole plow?
The cost of the tile itself is usually only half or less of the cost of a complete tile job. Why not do it right and get the benefit for a lifetime, instead of for only a couple years?

But it is your land and your time and money....
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John Smith
Posted 2/12/2024 15:24 (#10620490 - in reply to #10620336)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois		Probably a mistake,
Our fine texture soil,
With Sodium issues,
Would run back together too quickly.
Sodium destroys the flocculation of the soil.
How to make it work???????
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gpsdude
Posted 2/12/2024 17:51 (#10620682 - in reply to #10620336)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


NE South Dakota Clark, SD
KDD - 2/12/2024 13:00

So lets think about this....

A so-called "mole plow" is pulled through the soil to supposedly create a passageway that will drain water out of the soil profile. Just like a tile, i suppose? Except without the tile?
What happens to a tile that has a fault, crack, or failure? It usually fills with dirt, and plugs, right?
And so you are telling me that a drainage path through the soil, with no tile or structure whatsoever so hold the passage open will stay open enough to let water drain through it???
I don't think so....

Even if it did stay open long enough to work temporarily, why would I go the all the trouble and cost to pull a "mole plow" across a field and pay for the time, fuel, wear, and tear on equipment, when I could be installing tile by pulling a tile plow over those same acres, instead of some voo-doo mole plow?
The cost of the tile itself is usually only half or less of the cost of a complete tile job. Why not do it right and get the benefit for a lifetime, instead of for only a couple years?

But it is your land and your time and money....


I like the idea of the mole plow in situations where maybe a 4 letter "we are here to help" agency says you can't install tile. I would like to test one to see how long the channel will work. I know it is not a permenant fix, but would maybe last a few years or more. I have clients that have run there tile plows on grade with no pipe into restricted areas for drainage and it helps for a year or 2. The one I linked was developed in a very high clay lake bed similar to the Black Swamp.
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GrainTrader
Posted 2/13/2024 05:43 (#10621287 - in reply to #10620682)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana		It’d be easier to just “find” some old clay tile in that wet spot and be allowed to run a new one to replace it…. They commonly break down or have root grown into them years prior ; )
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gpsdude
Posted 2/13/2024 08:29 (#10621539 - in reply to #10621287)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


NE South Dakota Clark, SD		I wish that would work in my home area. Wetland rules are not the same in every state.
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TooDeep
Posted 2/13/2024 15:56 (#10622064 - in reply to #10620682)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


NE ND
gpsdude - 2/12/2024 17:51

KDD - 2/12/2024 13:00

So lets think about this....

A so-called "mole plow" is pulled through the soil to supposedly create a passageway that will drain water out of the soil profile. Just like a tile, i suppose? Except without the tile?
What happens to a tile that has a fault, crack, or failure? It usually fills with dirt, and plugs, right?
And so you are telling me that a drainage path through the soil, with no tile or structure whatsoever so hold the passage open will stay open enough to let water drain through it???
I don't think so....

Even if it did stay open long enough to work temporarily, why would I go the all the trouble and cost to pull a "mole plow" across a field and pay for the time, fuel, wear, and tear on equipment, when I could be installing tile by pulling a tile plow over those same acres, instead of some voo-doo mole plow?
The cost of the tile itself is usually only half or less of the cost of a complete tile job. Why not do it right and get the benefit for a lifetime, instead of for only a couple years?

But it is your land and your time and money....


I like the idea of the mole plow in situations where maybe a 4 letter "we are here to help" agency says you can't install tile. I would like to test one to see how long the channel will work. I know it is not a permenant fix, but would maybe last a few years or more. I have clients that have run there tile plows on grade with no pipe into restricted areas for drainage and it helps for a year or 2. The one I linked was developed in a very high clay lake bed similar to the Black Swamp.


Has anyone attached a 4”-5” steel ball behind their tile plow to form a tunnel?
In Minecraft of course.
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John Smith
Posted 2/13/2024 16:13 (#10622076 - in reply to #10622064)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois

It would need a thin shank and no boot.
It would be easier to convert an inline ripper.

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t-boss
Posted 2/12/2024 18:36 (#10620754 - in reply to #10618177)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



sc ia		I've got a hay field that is too steep for row crop that had some side hill seeps and wet spots. It's been 10 years or so since I mole plowed it and it's good. I dropped the mole in the ditch bank at the bottom and made several passes uphill going above the wet spots. The plow is a 3 point JD that goes in the ground about 2 feet. Permanent tile would be better I'm sure but this is really cheap and easy to do.
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John Smith
Posted 2/13/2024 15:47 (#10622052 - in reply to #10620754)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?


South Central Illinois

Looks like,
These should have a Beaver Tail.
Similar to the older NH3 knives only larger.
Maybe on the rear side of the shank?
Not really sure how it would work?
It may get opened up by the torpedo?
Curious, would a Beaver Tail be beneficial?

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t-boss
Posted 2/13/2024 18:03 (#10622187 - in reply to #10622052)
Subject: RE: Mole plow drainage?



sc ia		In the hayfields I would make another pass driving on the slot with the tractor tires to seal it back up. If you don't it could start a little ditch if it happened to rain a bunch. It also smooths it out. I've never seen one with a beaver tail but that might save the extra pass.
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