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Pole building perma columns or not?
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peterbilt379
Posted 12/4/2023 19:45 (#10510253)
Subject: Pole building perma columns or not?


We are going to be putting up a pole barn. It was mentioned to me today about perma columns. The perma columns don't look very strong in the pictures. Will I regret doing perma columns vs posts in the ground?
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Green Acres Guy
Posted 12/4/2023 19:51 (#10510261 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Latimer, Iowa (north central)		Depends on your posts. Our Astro shed built in 1977 with real creosote 6x6s looks great. Our Bonanza shed built in 1976 and 1980 with the 3 laminated 2x6s had the posts rot a long time ago and posts replaced poorly. Needs to have perma columns put in to fix better. If I was building a new shed I would put a concrete stem wall/footing all the way around it.
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jd4930
Posted 12/4/2023 19:52 (#10510264 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Central ND		I would look into concrete footer/stem wall construction
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wffoker
Posted 12/4/2023 20:04 (#10510292 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Ohio City Ohio		I won't build a pole barn for that reason. To much wood close or touching dirt. A trench footer and 2ft stem wall to build the building on top of is very reasonable cost. When I priced a pole bar vs stick build the lumber/steel package was cheaper for the stick build structure. So the cost of the concrete foundation is your only upcharge vs poles in ground. But now you will actually have a closed building vs rats and raccoons walking right in under your siding
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peterbilt379
Posted 12/4/2023 20:16 (#10510315 - in reply to #10510292)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


I would consider the stem wall footing now after doing some research but I dont think my time frame will allow it as we are coming into winter and my dirt guy is just getting there.
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jd4930
Posted 12/4/2023 20:20 (#10510329 - in reply to #10510315)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Central ND		No offense but I wouldn't sacrifice a life time building over a few week/month delay at this point......jmo, you have 1 chance to do it right and a lifetime to regret it. I did what you're doing now a gew years ago, I regret it every time I walk in that building
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peterbilt379
Posted 12/4/2023 20:25 (#10510344 - in reply to #10510329)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


No offense taken but i have a lot of bred heifers to calf in February. This thing was supposed to be built this summer but my dirt contractor didn't show up until today.
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drk
Posted 12/4/2023 22:40 (#10510553 - in reply to #10510344)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


IA		If it's gonna be a calving barn with bedding and manure in it there is no way I would put wood posts in the ground. Definitely perma columns or sonotube with a h bracket or a full concrete footer.
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Balzy
Posted 12/4/2023 20:31 (#10510351 - in reply to #10510315)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


central Iowa		They make perma column concrete posts . You put those in the ground sticking up above ground level-your posts bolt on top of those- keeping your wood posts out of the ground.
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nc1112
Posted 12/4/2023 22:08 (#10510519 - in reply to #10510351)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Central Nebraska		This. Use sonotube forms in your post holes and fill to grade with concrete. Won't add much extra time. Either wet set your anchors or fasten them after. This way your posts have a footing but aren't in the ground.
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Paystar500
Posted 12/4/2023 20:07 (#10510299 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


As others have said - never put any wood, of any type, in the ground.

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peterbilt379
Posted 12/4/2023 20:18 (#10510323 - in reply to #10510299)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


I am in south dakota and throwing this all together right now. How deep do the stem walls need to be? Is there any building codes anywhere that need to be followed?
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junk fun
Posted 12/5/2023 09:38 (#10511007 - in reply to #10510323)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Wisconsin		Any building needs to engineered in some form, whether that's an engineered plan, or the builders experience, or most houses are just built by simple span tables and accepted framing standards. Pole barns are built cheap, that is, "engineered" to make the biggest structure with the least material needed to meet the minimum strength required. The poles buried in the ground are critical to the strength of the building, you don't just put poles on top of a concrete wall without figuring out what that does to the building strength, and compensating for it. Most wood frame walls on top of concrete walls would be called hinge joints in engineering talk. Hint, you don't want that to hinge.
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bobbyg
Posted 12/26/2023 21:22 (#10543034 - in reply to #10510323)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


EC IL		You better get it engineered. Taller and wider will change your stem walls drastically. Be way higher than perma columns imo
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wcfields
Posted 12/4/2023 20:19 (#10510327 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Chatham Ontario.		Pole barns are great if your going to keep the poles out of the ground. Neighbor just put one up using perma columns. My grandfather worked on jacking up all our old buildings a 100 years ago. They quit decaying after that.
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Dirtpoor iowa
Posted 12/4/2023 20:31 (#10510352 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


If you do posts, backfill with gravel
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Indianajones
Posted 12/4/2023 20:34 (#10510356 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



I built my shop with perma columns and am very happy with them. They are used a lot so don't let others scare you out of them.
INDY
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Bswing
Posted 12/4/2023 20:46 (#10510379 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Michigan		We have two pill barns with with and two without. I can’t see any down side to building a poll barn with no wood in the ground. I think they are a great idea and a pretty reasonable priced option
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Hurricane
Posted 12/4/2023 20:52 (#10510395 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Yes on the perma columns. Doors blowing out usually what destroys the building, or rotten poles at the ground 

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granto
Posted 12/4/2023 21:07 (#10510424 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


18c ditch system		I wouldn’t lose any sleep having wood in ground. My wood laminate posts are like new after 22 yrs.
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sdnotill1983
Posted 12/4/2023 21:21 (#10510448 - in reply to #10510424)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


SE SD		4’ wall on top of footing.



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hillfarmer
Posted 12/5/2023 05:35 (#10510654 - in reply to #10510424)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



granto - 12/4/2023 22:07

I wouldn’t lose any sleep having wood in ground. My wood laminate posts are like new after 22 yrs.


put a wooden post fence up

3 in 7 rotted off all from one pallet of post
just roll of the dice to get good ones
no more wood in the ground here
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Trint
Posted 12/4/2023 21:26 (#10510459 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



North Central OH		Here I went with green post, laminated posts wrapped and sealed with extra treatment under the wrap. Should be stronger than a perma column but can't comment on life for another 30 years. That being said you mentioned livestock, I would strongly consider a stem wall for livestock. Posts and livestock don't mix as well as block.
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oldskool
Posted 12/4/2023 22:21 (#10510530 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



Let your age dictate how serious you get. 40+ put wood in and let someone else fix it in 30 years. If you’re younger consider how you plan to take care of the building and its location. A building that has good drainage and gets manure cleaned away from the posts and walls in a timely manner will last 3 times as long compared to a building that sits in mud/water and gets cleaned every few years. Concrete is a better choice than wood from a longevity standpoint, sometimes the dollars and life just don’t make it a feasible one.
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boa628
Posted 12/4/2023 22:54 (#10510564 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


SWOH		We used perma columns for a machine shed we built two years ago and everything previous to that had treated posts in the ground. Buildings with posts in the ground range from late 70’s to 2015ish. The 70 and 80’s barns have some posts rotted off. We won’t put another wood post in the ground here. I don’t know if current treated posts are different than 80’s treated posts, but we won’t do it again. The rot has occurred in concrete and graveled floored barns both. If it’s a livestock barn, a concrete wall would be best I would think. I don’t know if manure would eventually rust out the metal on perma columns, but that would be my only concern with them. The perma columns in our newest shed seem very stout and I wouldn’t hesitate at all to use them if we build another one. Very happy with them so far but like I said, we only have 2 years of experience with them.
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jd43
Posted 12/5/2023 06:45 (#10510738 - in reply to #10510564)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Northeastern Pa.		There is a pole barn on the farm for 50 years with the poles in the ground and one 25+ years and they're fine. I actually don't know of any in this area other than new ones that aren't in the ground. They will outlive me. Do what you need to do.
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boog
Posted 12/5/2023 10:26 (#10511079 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



I haven't read the other replies but I would recommend the perm-a-columns. I put up a new tool shed / shop in 1979, laminated columns of a 2x8 with 2x6s on each side. In 2010 our dog was digging around one of the columns, I noticed that the 2x6s were completely rotted off & only about 1/2 of the 2x8 was left. This was approx 4-6" below ground. Started digging around & found all the other columns were in similar condition. I hired a contractor to jack up the building, dig out the wood columns && replace the bottoms with perm-a=-columns. I know of two other buildings in our area that was built in the same time period. One the owner did as we did. The other tore his down, columns were totally rotted off under ground, & built a new building, though not sure if he used perm-a-columns. FFWI, we are in an are with a high water table. When the contractor did mine it was in December & he was surprised to get water in the holes at 3'. I feel they added at least another 25 - 30 years of life to my building

Since then we have built two buildings, a 80x120 shop & a 72x 120 cold storage building. Went with perm-a-columns on both buildings. On the last one, the 72 x120, the contractor dug holes about 2x the size of the perm-a-column, set the perm-a-column & poured cement around the column. When I questioned him about why using the concrete he claimed that he had found when using just the perm-a-column that over a period of time wind against the building would eventually work the columns loose & that the concrete prevented this. I have no proof that this is correct but the guy has been in the business a lot of years & put up a lot of buildings.
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FFJR
Posted 12/5/2023 10:40 (#10511115 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



nc IA		Very satisfied with the morton version of the permacolumn. Understand they even have a cement based grade board available now eliminating that one remaining piece of wood ground contact.



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bordercolliie1
Posted 12/5/2023 11:41 (#10511201 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Ecsd		Perms columns are good enough for Morton. And that’s good enough for me.

Edited by bordercolliie1 12/5/2023 11:53
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MaineFarmer
Posted 12/5/2023 17:39 (#10511598 - in reply to #10511201)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


coast of Maine		Friend ,built boat storage buildings,rents them out.Makes bank.Put in perma columns ,kept edge of shed an inch of the ground,,why? Town tax code,,shed vs building,,saved 10 grand year property tax.
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Chad H
Posted 12/5/2023 18:13 (#10511628 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


NE SD		Have two buildings build between 1988 and 1991 and both of them have rotting poles. Unless you're on a good sand hill, wood doesn't belong in the ground, and even then it's less than ideal.
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G5 Ag
Posted 12/5/2023 18:28 (#10511643 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


NE MO		This wood in the ground discussion gets old. So much is dependent on your soil type and how well it percolates water. My father built a shed over 30 years ago with wood in the ground on sandy loam. Posts are perfect. I’ve torn down several buildings on the same soil type and the wood in the ground was far from rotten and bumping 100 years old. With that being said, the dirt at my place has a clay pan and holds water, therefore I chose to build my shop on perma columns and price was pennies in relation to the total cost I’m in the building. Pick your preference and rock out.
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WAYNE0224
Posted 12/5/2023 20:12 (#10511804 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


west central ohio		I have no idea about perma-columns, but wouldn't spending money on just putting a concrete floor in the building help keep the water and air at the ground line under control? It seems like if you seal the area around the post, and with proper drainage, I would think they would last? Thoughts?

Edited by WAYNE0224 12/5/2023 20:12
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junk fun
Posted 12/5/2023 21:09 (#10511887 - in reply to #10511804)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Wisconsin		Ideally, the posts are saturated with tar or oil from the wet part to the dry part. It's the interface between wet and dry that rots out. So concrete will still have a wet post under it, unless the whole bottom is saturated.
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lgncia
Posted 12/6/2023 07:21 (#10512237 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?


Northern Central Iowa		My builder poured concrete into open holes and then used the wet set brackets. He started by drilling holes, then set up the permanent bottom grade board and boxed in a square top with scrap wood. Also put some long carriage bolts through grade board into concrete area to hold grade board before pouring. He built most of the wall on the ground before standing wall up.



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99MAX
Posted 12/6/2023 15:55 (#10512883 - in reply to #10510253)
Subject: RE: Pole building perma columns or not?



Stearns County, Minnesota

Marking:

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