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GrainTrader

Posted 1/28/2015 18:49 (#4345527)
Subject: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana

We to CPS again this afternoon to discuss the MESZ with the manager...
I brought up my concern with the Sulfur. (Been using AMS). I asked him when he felt like the elemental sulfur would be available to the corn crop? He said it depended on the rains and what not. So my next question was would it be there for the next years bean crop? He wasn't real confident in knowing.

So I'll ask the panel of experts here. Is this 50/50 mix of sulfate and elemental sulfur a better mix then strait AMS?

I'm leaning more towards my past AMS program. But thinking about letting this guy split a field with his program and my other program.

lawfarms

Posted 1/28/2015 19:25 (#4345656 - in reply to #4345527)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

King City, Mo

Go with the AMS and map and zinc sulfate. Your prob gonna need to apply boron too...

Here is a couple sulfur cycle images I found from googling "sulfur cycle for kids"

(image.jpg)

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GrainTrader

Posted 1/28/2015 19:27 (#4345668 - in reply to #4345656)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana

I Dont have a canal near by. Do I need to be applying "canal discharge" in my dry blend or foliar applied?

lawfarms

Posted 1/28/2015 20:49 (#4345984 - in reply to #4345668)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

King City, Mo

Easy on the trigger cowboy! I can only upload pics so fast and chase children around the house

17821x

Posted 1/28/2015 19:33 (#4345692 - in reply to #4345527)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

NE Iowa

Most of the elemental S on the market is finely ground to help breakdown and then 10% bentonite clay is added to turn it back in to a prill that spreads well with other fertilizer. From what I've gathered from research the elemental particles will vary in size from 50-300 mesh. I think they purposely have a range in order to spread out the oxidation to sulfate form. Several of the products advertise that at least 50% of the particles will be 100 mesh or smaller. So based on the table below that I found with a 100 mesh particle at 2 weeks 36% would be oxidized and at 4 weeks 68% would be oxidized. But remember only 50% of the particles are that small. I think elemental S got a bad rap in the past when it was coarsely ground. The newer products that are finely ground and then bound together with clay make a nice slow release product. I've gone to using elemental S every year. I can get 90% elemental S for $580 per ton which is $.32 / # of S.

(Elemental_S.JPG)

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Boone & Crockett

Posted 1/29/2015 05:25 (#4346454 - in reply to #4345692)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

17821x - 1/28/2015 19:33

Most of the elemental S on the market is finely ground to help breakdown and then 10% bentonite clay is added to turn it back in to a prill that spreads well with other fertilizer. From what I've gathered from research the elemental particles will vary in size from 50-300 mesh. I think they purposely have a range in order to spread out the oxidation to sulfate form. Several of the products advertise that at least 50% of the particles will be 100 mesh or smaller. So based on the table below that I found with a 100 mesh particle at 2 weeks 36% would be oxidized and at 4 weeks 68% would be oxidized. But remember only 50% of the particles are that small. I think elemental S got a bad rap in the past when it was coarsely ground. The newer products that are finely ground and then bound together with clay make a nice slow release product. I've gone to using elemental S every year. I can get 90% elemental S for $580 per ton which is $.32 / # of S.

X, you are one smart dude. Where did you learn all this stuff? Your knowledge on these topics is second to none. I thank you from the bottom of my heart, because since you are on here, I don't have to learn all that jargon!

Edited by Boone & Crockett 1/29/2015 05:26

GrainTrader

Posted 1/29/2015 05:48 (#4346462 - in reply to #4346454)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana

+1!

17821x

Posted 1/29/2015 09:45 (#4346875 - in reply to #4346454)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

NE Iowa

I'm just a Certified Crop Advisor / BTO wanna-be at heart but reality is I'm just a STO with a full-time off farm job. A lot of my researching, number crunching, and homemade equipment is driven by my cheapness. I want all the stuff the big guys have but don't want to pay for it.

Boone & Crockett

Posted 1/30/2015 04:44 (#4348880 - in reply to #4346875)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

17821x - 1/29/2015 09:45

I'm just a Certified Crop Advisor / BTO wanna-be at heart but reality is I'm just a STO with a full-time off farm job. A lot of my researching, number crunching, and homemade equipment is driven by my cheapness. I want all the stuff the big guys have but don't want to pay for it.

So are you private or work for a coop? Would like for our paths to cross sometime. We can't be too far apart.

oilmaster

Posted 1/28/2015 19:35 (#4345703 - in reply to #4345527)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

WCIN

Were you talking with Matt at North Salem?

GrainTrader

Posted 1/28/2015 19:41 (#4345726 - in reply to #4345703)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana

Yes

oilmaster

Posted 1/28/2015 20:15 (#4345859 - in reply to #4345726)
Subject: .....

WCIN

I hope Matt finds a seat there. He is a cool cat.

GrainTrader

Posted 1/29/2015 05:34 (#4346458 - in reply to #4345859)
Subject: RE: .....

20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana

Seemed like a good guy. He knew his chemistry/chemicals top notch. I'm terrible with them. He might be a helpful asset. I do almost all my business elsewhere, but I think I'm gonna try some of theirs on part of a field.

oilmaster

Posted 1/28/2015 20:08 (#4345821 - in reply to #4345527)
Subject: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

WCIN

and have used MESZ in the past and ran out and finished with straight DAP or MAP. Never seen a difference.

Maybe my bad, but I use a blend of DAP, 90% sulfur, and 35.5% zinc sulfate.

The cost of MESZ dosen't payoff here.

With grid sampling and VR spreading, I should be able to back off my 2X2 starter program a bit, but not yet.

17821x

Posted 1/28/2015 20:55 (#4346014 - in reply to #4345821)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NE Iowa

He gave his prices in an earlier thread:

MESZ $660
MAP: $570
AMS: $400
34% Zn: $1/#

He is comparing:

150# MAP + 100# AMS + 5# Zn Sulfate = 37.5-78-0-25-1.7 (N-P-K-S-Zn) for $68.30/acre

Vs.

200# MESZ = 24-80-0-20-2 for $66/acre

So say the N is worth $.45/#
P is worth $.45/# (if you subtract value of N of of MAP)
S is worth about $.33/#
Zn is worth about $2.5/#

So the MESZ is -13.5# N, +2# P, -5# S, and +0.3# Zn = -13.5*.45+2*.45-5*.33+.3*2.75= -$5.95
So the MESZ costs $2.30 less per acre but by my estimates has $5.95/acre less in nutrients leaving your old mix at $3.65 per acre cheaper. With your MAP / AMS based mix you can also customize the mix for any given field. Just something to think about. I like to your fertilizer numbers.

GrainTrader

Posted 1/29/2015 05:13 (#4346447 - in reply to #4346014)
Subject: 17821X

20 Miles West of Indianapolis Indiana

17821X, could u email me. I have some follow up questions regarding your N/MESZ program and your soil types/yields/Rotation

hd 21

Posted 1/29/2015 07:46 (#4346622 - in reply to #4346014)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NW OH

Mike, i spread high cal lime when needed and 600 lbs/acre every other year. Thinking of dropping gyp and use elemental Su. With gyp at 60/ton spread how does that compare Su wise with the Su to SO4 .
Su in gyp at 16% it is .1875 cents/lb actual?
Randy

17821x

Posted 1/29/2015 10:02 (#4346909 - in reply to #4346622)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NE Iowa

I use elemental S for several reasons:

- it is fairly cost effective at roughly $.33/# of S
- my favorite local retailers do not stock AMS
- you can apply exactly as many #'s as you need and has nothing but S in it (don't like applying N to beans)
- it releases all year long

The prices I've been quoted on gypsum are similar to yours. And yes it works out to less $$$/# of S ($.1875). The kicker is that when you apply gypsum you are probably applying 3 times as many #'s of S as what your crop needs. Paying 60% less for something but using 3 times as much as you need doesn't save any money. The S in gypsum is in the sulfate form and subject to leaching like N. It sticks around a little better than N but I wouldn't count on it lasting for years. Gypsum does have other benefits if you have a high Mg soil and maybe leaching out some Mg with gypsum may be worth it to you. Personally, I have crazy high Mg soils. So high that I don't think I can afford enough gypsum to make much improvement. My soils have lots of high Mg limestone underneath them so not sure I would be able to keep my Mg levels down anyway. I also have a fear of gypsum leaching out my K along with some Mg. I hate to lose any K. It seems like my highest yields correlate directly to areas where the K levels are highest.

hd 21

Posted 1/29/2015 10:21 (#4346953 - in reply to #4346909)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NW OH

Adding 3 times Su than crop needs, where is the xtra going? Doesn't show at all in soil test.
Maybe leaving with Mg?
High Mg soils here also.
Agree, beans need alittle n at start but 0 on.
K, have not seen test go down, actually came up a little.

Scrubber gyp being ground so fine would you think it leach faster? That's my guess.
Scrubber is a little over half prive of quarry.

Randy

17821x

Posted 1/29/2015 11:26 (#4347115 - in reply to #4346953)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NE Iowa

I've never had much luck with S soil test results. My P and K has gotten very consistant and less variable but not the case with S. I rarely even pay the extra for micro soil tests anymore. If you apply extra S it is likely reacting with the Mg and leaching through the soil profile. Is the reduction of Mg enough to pay for the gypsum it is hard to know for sure. How high are your Mg levels? My Mg base sats are 30-35%. One thing I've found over the years is that the higher the Mg the more N you need to apply for corn. I've been using end of year stalk tests for about 10 years. I've found with my Mg levels I need 1.2# of N/bu. Anything less will show deficiency at the end of the year. I use mostly urea as an N source. I've used about every stabilizer Agrotain, Nutrisphere, and Instinct. I've tried 28% for a couple years. Have used some AMS. I've also used SuperU and ESN before. With all of that experience I've just succombed to the fact that I need to use a lot of N to make up for the high Mg.

hd 21

Posted 1/29/2015 16:21 (#4347664 - in reply to #4347115)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NW OH

Sorry to get back toyou this late, went to a meeting and cleary we were under dressed.
Mg base here is 13 to 20% , so clearly not as high as yours.
Randy

17821x

Posted 1/29/2015 17:13 (#4347772 - in reply to #4347664)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NE Iowa

With those kinds of magnesium levels I wouldn't mess with gypsum. Maybe if you could buy it for $20 a ton but for $60 I would skip it. Spend your money on getting your calcium base saturations up to at least 65%. And your potassium base saturations up to at least 3 to 4 percent.

hd 21

Posted 1/29/2015 18:38 (#4347957 - in reply to #4347772)
Subject: RE: I use dry starter fertilizer on the planter

NW OH

Here Ca base is 72-84 and K is 1.8-2.8
When we were ditching the neighbors and jumped the ditch and did some in my field, the help really liked how easy mine was to put crumbs on the tile. Not that the neighbors was bad, if i said that right.
Randy

Edited by hd 21 1/29/2015 18:42

Errcon

Posted 1/28/2015 23:51 (#4346375 - in reply to #4345527)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

NW central North Dakota

Agree on the size of the particle in the prill/granule. I always have described the elemental s portion of mesz as a grain of salt and a 90% elemental granule as a salt block. The conversion is faster on the smaller of the two, considering the other portions of the mesz granule breakdown to allow the "grain of salt" to be entirely surrounded by soil. I have used it for about 5 years on small grains, works great, on a corn dude that wants it there real early....not so much(IMO). Still, I use mesz on my corn and supplement it with a separate pass of AMS. Uniformity just like a crop stand is goal. Good luck, most growers know what will work best for them on their ground tho, probly different for some.

mafrif

Posted 1/29/2015 06:14 (#4346483 - in reply to #4345527)
Subject: RE: elemental sulfur breakdown vs sulfate... followup on MESZ

NC Iowa

Grain
I dont think you would be unhappy with the mesz. I did some replicated trials a couple years ago comparing the two. Mesz and ams had a similar yield gain over straight map. Ill be back on Sunday and I'll see if I can find it and send it to you.

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