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most economical power for PTO generator
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Larry NCKS
Posted 12/17/2007 10:24 (#262317)
Subject: most economical power for PTO generator


Washington, Kansas & Lincoln, Nebraska
I have a 20kw 540 PTO generator that I have been powering with my '64 Ford 4000 Diesel. It is an economical engine.

However, there has been some suggestion lately that a larger tractor with a 1000 RPM PTO and an adapter might do the job on less fuel. I have an 8770 Genesis tractor that is very economical on fuel too. Could it be more so than the little Ford in my application? What say ye? TIA

Thanks goodness the power is back on right now.



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pbutler
Posted 12/17/2007 10:45 (#262332 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: RE: most economical power for PTO generator



Macon, IL
You may save fuel-not sure-but the hours on that Genesis are going to cost you a lot more than hours on the 4000.
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Jon Hagen
Posted 12/17/2007 11:20 (#262355 - in reply to #262332)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
Also it is a rare tractor that will have good enough governor control at slightly over 1/2 pto rpm, to give a generator good voltage and frequency control if the load changes. BTDT
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Ron..NE ILL..10/48
Posted 12/17/2007 22:37 (#262863 - in reply to #262355)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



Chebanse, IL.....

I think the Genesis would be down around 1200 engine rpm to spin 540 pto shaft rpms. If they were an electronic pump, they might have more chance....but holding the rpms steady with a changing load (like a generator) would be a challenge.

I've always thought it too bad they didn't make a 750 rpm shaft adapter for such jobs.

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CW IL
Posted 12/17/2007 11:18 (#262354 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


Effingham, IL
I agree with pbutler. Also the electric tachometers rack up an hour reguardless if idle or full throttle, unlike the old mechanical tachs. I have run a 1466 with a 1000 adapter pto on a 30-45kw and it works fine. I've never been around a Ford 4000, but I would assume it's pretty easy on fuel. Isn't it powered by a 3 cylinder?
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Larry NCKS
Posted 12/17/2007 13:24 (#262440 - in reply to #262354)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


Washington, Kansas & Lincoln, Nebraska
the 63 thru mid 65 4000s had 4 cylinders in 'em
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Chet Z
Posted 12/17/2007 21:53 (#262815 - in reply to #262440)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


Nance County, Ne
Larry where might a person look first to find all tin work for a tractor like that? Brother bought a farm 2yrs ago and the previous tenant used a ford like that to run an irrigation well so my brother bought it. He can't believe how economical itis on fuel. The tractor is missing all the hood pieces. If you wouldn't mind could you post some more pics of that tractor so I could show him what it could really look like if he was to somewhat paint it up.
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RodInNS
Posted 12/17/2007 11:39 (#262372 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: RE: most economical power for PTO generator


I'd stay with the 4000 if it's doing the job. I'd think there would be more fuel consumption to feed the parasitic loss on the Genesis than the 4000 would burn... I know it's efficient, but it's not that efficient at 1/8 load.

Rod
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SD-455
Posted 12/17/2007 11:58 (#262390 - in reply to #262372)
Subject: RE: most economical power for PTO generator


Northeast Indiana (Auburn)
I would stay with the 4000. I have a Massey 275 that I run a 25,000W generator with. It uses right at 3/4 of a gallon per hour. My JD 4440 with the 1000 rpm adapter will run about 3 gallon per hour. I had a 2705 Massey that would use 4 gallon per hour at 540 pto and 3 gallons per hour with the 1000 pto adapter. I would rather use a $5000 tractor than a $30,000 tractor any day.
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boog
Posted 12/17/2007 11:56 (#262387 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



Larry, I have run a 25kw generator with a Super M. Gen. is used for the house only so the load is fairly consistent. This year I planned on trying our 1206 on it if needed thinking that with 1,000 rpm pto that the fuel consumption would be reduced. A few years a guy I know borrowed the gen for a couple weeks to run his hog confinement building with. He tried using it on a 4020 D using the 1000 pto but said it would not maintain a consistent enough rpm when different motors kicked in & ended up switching the 4020 back over to 540 & got along fine.
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Rockhead
Posted 12/17/2007 12:18 (#262403 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: Think about this....



Chippewa County, MN

I realize you're not as far north, but I'd hesitate running a larger tractor with a 100rpm shaft for the simple fact that the tractor wouldn't be running fast enough or pulling hard enough to create enough heat to keep from building up soot and carbon.  None of my newer tractors run even close to the green in the winter unless they are working moderately.  I run a Farmall 450 diesel on my generator and it runs very economically.  Running at approximately half throttle, it keeps the oil and coolant at a good temperature.  The governor response on that is second to none also.  Bear in mind that it's usually -20 or more windchills, sometimes down to -60 to -70 when our power goes out up here.  That's when the WD 45 comes out and runs on the generator until the tank heater on the 450 can do it's wonders.

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WYDave
Posted 12/17/2007 14:13 (#262488 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: RE: most economical power for PTO generator


Wyoming

The 8770 and 8870 Genesis tractors are some of the most fuel efficient tractors ever made. Trouble is, the only way you'll realize the full fuel efficiency of the 8770 is to load it to at least 75% of rated PTO HP, which would be a lot more than it takes to develop 20kW. At lower power ratings, I don't think you'll do all that much better than the 4000, and as others have pointed out, running the 8770 isn't cheap in terms of what a tach hour costs you on a trade-in or sale.

 

Also, consider this: The 4000 will probably go up in value in the future as an antique because it is in such nice condition, so you'll likely not even lose value on the 4000.

Oh, and should you put enough hours on the 4000 to warrant a rebuild -- it has to be easier to rebuild that cute little machine than an 8770.

 

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hwdcne
Posted 12/17/2007 14:36 (#262498 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


Soutwest Ks.
Running your larger tractor with pto adapter may be very hard on the engine. I know the later model JD's will start slobbering diesel fuel after a few hrs. of slow running.
If they are slobbering fuel, they probably are washing down the cylinder walls. Not good in my opinion, keep with the 4000.
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Trapper
Posted 12/17/2007 14:43 (#262501 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: RE: most economical power for PTO generator


Both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line
Has anyone used a 540 to 1000 gearbox, and then reduced back down to 540 output splines? I considered doing this when running grain augers.
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plowboy
Posted 12/17/2007 15:24 (#262520 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



Brazilton KS
I'm gonna go with the 4000.
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Kelly
Posted 12/17/2007 17:16 (#262551 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


NC KS
I have 2 different ice storms to test your situation and the bigger tractor running at lower rpms wins in the fuel department. I had a 4430 (a tractor known for fuel ineffiencies) runnning a 35kw on the 540 shaft. It was burning over 3 gallons an hour. A 9670 Agco Allis (Big 6 cylinder Duetz motor), burns a little over 2 an hour pulling the same load. THe 4430 doesn't have enough poop to pull that load that low on the rpm and keep things consistant. The 9670 (170 pto hp) had a discernable change in engine tone when something kicked on but the digital tach only dropped back 20 rpm. THe Duetz is air cooled so the wet stacking is not as big a problem with it. You could put cardboard over part of the radiator to keep a water cooled one warm.
Noise reduction is a big plus as the tractor is about 40 feet from our bedroom window. Bigger tractor has bigger tanks so you don't have to refuel as often. Big one could run almost 3 days before filling while 4430 had to have a fuel nozzle in it every 12 hours to keep it going.

Edited by Kelly 12/17/2007 17:23
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pbutler
Posted 12/17/2007 17:30 (#262559 - in reply to #262551)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



Macon, IL
Two neighbors of mine run gens off 4440's. I would be nervous on those tractors of having oil leak or radiator hose bust or something and cooking the engine. I imagine that genesis is new and smart enough to shut isself down if something like that happens before engine is ruined but those older tractors arent-maybe I am being overly cautious but I have heard of it happening.

Edited by pbutler 12/17/2007 17:31
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plowboy
Posted 12/17/2007 19:27 (#262665 - in reply to #262551)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



Brazilton KS

Kelly, I think you are comparing 'too big' and 'too bigger'.  A 35kw generator needs about a 50 hp tractor, not 125 for the 'small' side of the comparison. 

I'm still thinking the 4000 is going to win.   

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Adrian
Posted 12/17/2007 19:34 (#262675 - in reply to #262665)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



South Georgia
4000 would probably win, and if I was planning to do it much, especially in cold weather, I'd probably take the 'real' fan off the motor, and replace it with a small electric fan to save fuel. I'd also probably put some Murphy switch-gages on it.

Adrian
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Kelly
Posted 12/17/2007 20:59 (#262771 - in reply to #262665)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


NC KS
I don't think a 50 hp would run a 35 kw at full load but you are right about being over powered even with a 4430. We have an 830 Case (gas) that Dad bought new in 1965. It would probably handle the generator but the fuel economy would make it cost prohibitive.
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Larry NCKS
Posted 12/17/2007 21:22 (#262794 - in reply to #262771)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


Washington, Kansas & Lincoln, Nebraska
Think you're right. Generator people are saying 2 horsepower per kw. 35kw would then need a minimum of 70 hp.


Thanks to all for the replies.
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Adam Suess
Posted 12/17/2007 22:14 (#262836 - in reply to #262317)
Subject: RE: most economical power for PTO generator


Hanska, Minnesota
I have done it both ways. Have a Kato light generator, I forget the kw rating. Running it on a 77 diesel Oliver it usually ran 10-12 hrs on a 14 gallon tank pulling a 15hp bin fan continuously. I've run it on my 2255 Oliver on the 1000 shaft, close to 3 gal hr and the tractor loaded up real bad. I use that 77 and 2255 on unattended stationary pto work all the time. One time I was out checking things and found the oil line to the injection pump on the 77 had started leaking while running the unload auger from the drier. The tractor was all but out of oil. I put Murphy gages on every thing after that. Saved my 2255 once also when the oil line to the gage wore through while running the corn drier. Shuts down at 200F or less than 20psi oil, one of my best investments.

Edited by Adam Suess 12/17/2007 23:31
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DR J
Posted 12/17/2007 23:09 (#262880 - in reply to #262836)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


South central Ks.
Neighbor's dairy- 50kw on a 4640 540pto, the dad was going to save fuel so switched the pto shaft to 1000, electricity came back on so shut tractor down and left it hooked up, next day electricity went off during milking so dad goes out fires up the tractor and opens her wide open, son in milk barn said lights sure got real bright before everything blew.
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kwvnhfr1
Posted 12/18/2007 09:25 (#263044 - in reply to #262880)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator


Blue Grass (Eastern IA)
That's a neat trick since a 4640 only has a 1000 PTO
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Adrian
Posted 12/17/2007 23:22 (#262895 - in reply to #262836)
Subject: Re: most economical power for PTO generator



South Georgia
Yeah, those murphy gages are worth their weight in gold, in an emergency. They saved two motors for us this summer. One, somebody (not me) apparently didn't tighten the oil drain plug, and it fell out in the middle of the night and dumped all the oil out. Found it the next morning, screwed the plug in, refilled it with oil, and back to work it went. The other one, the copper line going to the oil pressure guage broke, and it murphey'd off. (That one might've been a blessing if it'd self-destructed, I have to admit.) If there was any way around it, I wouldn't run a stationary tractor without.

Adrian
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