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3116 CAT fuel issue
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John.jr
Posted 2/8/2018 19:50 (#6564333)
Subject: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Fancy prairie, Illinois
Working on a 3116 in a Chevy topkick. The truck is hard starting and low on power. The filter on the suction side is only half full. Pressure side is full. With a clear hose on suction and return the suction side has bubbles present at mid to high throttle. Bubbles are maybe 1/16" 1-2 inches apart. Return side has thousands of tiny bubbles at low to mid throttle, clears at high throttle. What's everyone's thoughts? Bad injector cup? Plastic supply lines have been replaced, suction filter was vacuum tested. Cracked pickup tube in tank?



(20180208_154400.jpg)



(20180208_153809.jpg)



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Attachments 20180208_154400.jpg (97KB - 538 downloads)
Attachments 20180208_153809.jpg (98KB - 466 downloads)
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4WD
Posted 2/8/2018 21:51 (#6564700 - in reply to #6564333)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

John.jr - 2/8/2018 19:50 Working on a 3116 in a Chevy topkick. The truck is hard starting and low on power. The filter on the suction side is only half full. Pressure side is full. With a clear hose on suction and return the suction side has bubbles present at mid to high throttle. Bubbles are maybe 1/16" 1-2 inches apart. Return side has thousands of tiny bubbles at low to mid throttle, clears at high throttle. What's everyone's thoughts? Bad injector cup? Plastic supply lines have been replaced, suction filter was vacuum tested. Cracked pickup tube in tank?

Did you happen to take a fuel pressure reading? (cranking, at idle and at high idle)

First, I will ask you to check and see if there is a "Fuel inlet screen" on the short inlet tube, to the CAT transfer pump. (Note: Not all 3116 have this screen) See pictures(copied from my earlier threads).

 

Your pictures, look fine for the fuel supply hose (I assume you had engine running during photo)

Were you sucking fuel, from a bucket, on TOP photo?

I'm not too excited, yet, on those return lines, to condemn anything major; like a copper sleeve issue, BUT remember that can be totally different if engine was under a load (like on a chassis dyno)

Have you pulled the valve cover, yet? {= looked for some rack bar movement, the instant someone turns ON the ignition key = if you don't see any, then also watch while cranking the engine, for 10 seconds too}

 

These engines prefer to have some fuel pressure, to start the engine while cranking, BUT as injectors get older and really worn, they will be hard to start also, even with a little fuel pressure during cranking. (You didn't mention overall miles, on truck) in those cases, it requires new injectors (but that is last resort)

 

There are too many things that add up to hard starting and low power, and I'm not going to write a novel, on here, either.

Sticking rack for injectors,

worn injectors,

poor governor spring preload,

dashpot allen screw fell out,

lack of oil to governor

Blown air/fuel ratio diaphragm

Improper low idle rpms,

sucking air in fuel system

combustion gases, getting pass injector sleeve/coppers

restriction in fuel supply

fuel setting adjustment incorrect = looks like someone has changed Fuel Governor = So did they measure and adjust "Full Load" setting ? (reference point for governor housing to #1 injector) OR did they just throw it on and ASSUME it would be OK???

etc. etc. etc.

Air filter problems, air to air cooler problems





(fuel_pump_3116fuelinletscreen.jpg)



(transfer_pump3116checkvalves.jpg)



(transfer_pump_3116_inpaintprogram.jpg)



(3116cutoutviewoftransferpump.gif)



(3116 fuel inlet screen with debris_hf213.jpg)



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Attachments fuel_pump_3116fuelinletscreen.jpg (78KB - 581 downloads)
Attachments transfer_pump3116checkvalves.jpg (36KB - 562 downloads)
Attachments transfer_pump_3116_inpaintprogram.jpg (32KB - 417 downloads)
Attachments 3116cutoutviewoftransferpump.gif (39KB - 371 downloads)
Attachments 3116 fuel inlet screen with debris_hf213.jpg (57KB - 433 downloads)
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John.jr
Posted 2/8/2018 22:17 (#6564757 - in reply to #6564700)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Fancy prairie, Illinois
#1 there's no screen
#2 in first picture, yes fuel from bucket
#3 were would I test pressure at?
#4 not sure on miles
#5 governor has a 10r-xxx part number, assuming it was replaced at some point, doesn't look too new.
#6 truck does idle low around 600 rpm guessing without looking possibly lower
Check valves were replaced, supply and return lines were also replaced.

I did take a video of the clear return and supply hoses from low to high rpm no load, not sure how to post it here. I could email it if you don't mind

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4WD
Posted 2/8/2018 22:46 (#6564821 - in reply to #6564757)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

John.jr - 2/8/2018 22:17

#1 there's no screen

#2 in first picture, yes fuel from bucket

#3 were would I test pressure at?

#4 not sure on miles

#5 governor has a 10r-xxx part number, assuming it was replaced at some point, doesn't look too new.

#6 truck does idle low around 600 rpm guessing without looking possibly lower

Check valves were replaced, supply and return lines were also replaced. I did take a video of the clear return and supply hoses from low to high rpm no load, not sure how to post it here. I could email it if you don't mind

 

Here's a picture for fuel pressure port.

Low idle should be closer to 750-800 rpms. (this adjustment will also provide a slightly more governor spring tension, during cranking) = helps move the rack bar in the "fuel ON" position, when ignition key is turned ON.

Don't worry about a video, once a person confirms fuel pressure, set low idle closer to 750-780 rpms, retest/restart/crank, and if necessary, pull valve cover and watch rack movement(as mentioned earlier), and even take long screwdriver (while engine is running, at idle) and move each individual injector's fuel rack, to the "fuel ON" position (causing a fuel knock) then watch return sight glass/hose for extreme bubbles.

 

Is this hard starting, only a problem once EACH morning, or EACH time the person cranks the engine; hot or cold?





(CAT 3116_fuel pressure location.jpg)



(injector_3116_fuel rack.jpg)



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Attachments CAT 3116_fuel pressure location.jpg (89KB - 456 downloads)
Attachments injector_3116_fuel rack.jpg (99KB - 468 downloads)
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hillfarmer
Posted 2/9/2018 02:41 (#6564915 - in reply to #6564821)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



.
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tj_farms
Posted 2/9/2018 08:40 (#6565304 - in reply to #6564915)
Subject: RE: N/T



Ohio
.
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John.jr
Posted 2/9/2018 10:29 (#6565529 - in reply to #6564821)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Fancy prairie, Illinois
Okay took some pressure readings
Idle is at 775
Low idle 12 psi 775 rpm
Mid 40 psi 1650 rpm
High 52 psi 2600 rpm

Pressure is raising at about a 3 second lag time
From low idle at 12psi raise rpm to max takes 3 seconds roughly to get to max fuel pressure.

Edit. 124k miles

Edited by John.jr 2/9/2018 10:33
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hillfarmer
Posted 2/9/2018 10:51 (#6565583 - in reply to #6565529)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Wow, my 3176 that does not start, needs 70 to start the engine,gear fuel lift pump

when you pump the"primer pump" what pressure do you have when the relief lets fuel back to the supply tank
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4WD
Posted 2/9/2018 10:58 (#6565593 - in reply to #6565529)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

John.jr - 2/9/2018 10:29 Okay took some pressure readings

Idle is at 775

Low idle 12 psi 775 rpm

Mid 40 psi 1650 rpm

High 52 psi 2600 rpm

Pressure is raising at about a 3 second lag time From low idle at 12psi raise rpm to max takes 3 seconds roughly to get to max fuel pressure.

Edit. 124k miles

 

Rpms look fine, Fuel pressure seems fine, too

note: You know that you may have already "cured" a low power complaint, with new fuel lines and new filters and new fuel check valves; because you didn't have any fuel pressure reading, Beforehand, to compare to.

You haven't mentioned "How long" does it actually take to start. (5 seconds cranking, 10 seconds or 30 seconds)

Also, was/is the hard starting, just in the mornings? or EACH time a person cranks the engine? {if problem was only each Morning, then You may want to inspect the fuel return check valve, also}

If it does take a long 30 seconds, of cranking; have you removed Air-to-Air tube and just tried a very quick squirt of ether, just to see how quickly it might start running?(might be a clue, to worn injectors, when those engine start very quickly with just a touch of ether, BUT normally we have tested and readjusted every adjustment and any another possibilities, before condemning a set of injectors) = basically only when you total believe you have everything "perfect" and it still takes 20-30 seconds of cranking OR a quick shot of ether(to be able to start quickly), do we finally commit to installing a complete set of injectors.

How do those clear fuel hoses "look" when you first start/crank the engine? Big bubbles anywhere?

note: there are areas, that we having even talked about yet, such as injector timing, valve adjustments, injector synchronization, governor inspection, "Full Load" setting, testing air/fuel ratio control., etc.

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John.jr
Posted 2/9/2018 11:19 (#6565632 - in reply to #6565593)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Fancy prairie, Illinois
The lines and check valves were replaced last summer, still had the low power complaint. I had the frame mounted filter base off last night so it took 30-60 seconds of cranking to get it running and primed. The longer it sits the harder it is to start. No problem to restart after 5 minutes. When I get back to the shop in a few hours it will have sat for 5 hours, I'll report back. Is the return check valve just one of the plastic spring loaded inserts that are like $10?
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4WD
Posted 2/9/2018 11:42 (#6565696 - in reply to #6565632)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

.





(3116_fuel_return_check_in paint program.jpg)



(fuel return location- in paint program.jpg)



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Attachments 3116_fuel_return_check_in paint program.jpg (71KB - 453 downloads)
Attachments fuel return location- in paint program.jpg (95KB - 416 downloads)
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4WD
Posted 2/9/2018 11:51 (#6565721 - in reply to #6564333)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

Here a guy testing the Air/Fuel ratio control valve for leaks on its internal diaphragm. (causes low power, if blown)

(I didn't read it, but it will give you pictures, for testing)

Testing can be done with governor, still on the engine

 http://schoolbusmechanic.blogspot.com/2009/07/cat-3116-troubleshooting-no-power.html

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John.jr
Posted 2/9/2018 11:58 (#6565734 - in reply to #6565696)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Fancy prairie, Illinois
https://youtu.be/MfpWhQ_PRlk

A video of the return and supply foe what it's worth
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4WD
Posted 2/9/2018 12:11 (#6565766 - in reply to #6565734)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

Looks normal, for an engine without any load on it.

 

Just FYI: For viewing sight glasses properly, you need to position fuel line/clear tube and watch the fuel "going uphill" in those lines. {Don't be fooled by any stagnant air bubbles sitting in some horizontal piece or downward piece of clear hose.}

 

Your hoses aren't too bad; personally,I would have made them a little longer, just to get some more area of "Vertical flow" to view.

 On longer hoses, we will lift the hose, to remove any stagnant air bubbles, right before testing, then lay down how we want, for viewing and then test, from there.

 

Here's a diagram, of what CAT puts in there literature, for one of the sight glasses that they sell:

 





(sightglassviews.jpg)



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Attachments sightglassviews.jpg (67KB - 344 downloads)
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John.jr
Posted 2/9/2018 18:44 (#6566452 - in reply to #6565766)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue



Fancy prairie, Illinois
I pulled the vc, no obvious change in return bubbles when actuating each injector manually. After it sat all afternoon it did start on the first try but almost died, ran rough for about 30 seconds. I'll see how it starts after 24 hrs. Thank you for your help

Also going to track down fittings to test the diaphragm tomorrow

Edited by John.jr 2/9/2018 18:48
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4WD
Posted 2/9/2018 19:06 (#6566499 - in reply to #6566452)
Subject: RE: 3116 CAT fuel issue


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

John.jr - 2/9/2018 18:44 I pulled the vc, no obvious change in return bubbles when actuating each injector manually.

 After it sat all afternoon it did start on the first try but almost died, ran rough for about 30 seconds

. I'll see how it starts after 24 hrs. Thank you for your help Also going to track down fittings to test the diaphragm tomorrow

 

During next start-up, see if you can watch your sight glasses/hoses carefully = might need 2 people = one to turn ignition key, and you to watch the clear fuel hoses.

Also, record if there was any fuel, at all in that clear SUPPLY line/fuel, even before cranking (or did it "drain backwards", over night)

 

Note: Looking to determine if any "air" is coming from supply line, or is it coming from injector area or maybe the whole fuel system drained backwards

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