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Rivers, MB | We have always been forward is up/back is down. Definitely in the minority. Which we are ok with. Never had an issue till today.
Hooking up a new to us drill to our CaseIH 435 quadtrac. Could lift/lower the drill with the fan running without issue. As soon as air cart fan remote (#1) was pushed forward into float to stop the fan, we couldn't lift the drill. Played around for a while. Finally tried reversing the hoses for the drill lift remote (#2). As soon as I flipped them, we could lift/lower the drill with the air cart fan remote (#1) in float or engaged.
So it begs the question. Why is that? Of the two female ends of a tractor remote/SCV, is one specifically meant to be pressure and the other return for lifting implements??
Edited by mennoboy 4/19/2017 18:00
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| The scv's have load lift check valves in them that are only designed to hold pressure/carry weight in one direction. That is lever forward = implement down, back lift up.
See Redwrench reply:
https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=382968&Display...
Edited by XIX 4/19/2017 18:30
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NC Iowa | Not answering your question, but how do you stop your fans if you can't push straight into float? |
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Central ND | My bourgault cart has a valve in the system that lets the motor freewheel when you shut it off |
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Athens, Ga | you could put a cross port relief valve in. |
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| .... your regulated pressure is low on your tractor. Very common problem to see on this vintage of tractors as they are getting up there in age,
First off, regulated pressure is the pressure that moves the spools in those remote valves. Think of it as pilot pressure. When you stroke a remote valve, the solenoids on each end of the valve control the movement of the spool with regulated pressure-if the pressure is low, spools don't move like they should, causing numerous problems with remote valves on those tractors.
The solution is to check/adjust regulated pressure. Should be 290-300 psi with hot oil(above 120 degrees F). Then once you do this, you will need to calibrate the remote valves.
Why did switching your hoses around fix the problem? With low regulated pressure, when you went to push the lever ahead to lower(in your case "raise") the implement, your spool in the valve overshot into float position-which is common, especially if you have your remote valve flow set at 100%. |
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| mennoboy - 4/19/2017 18:00
We have always been forward is up/back is down. Definitely in the minority. Which we are ok with. Never had an issue till today.
Hooking up a new to us drill to our CaseIH 435 quadtrac. Could lift/lower the drill with the fan running without issue. As soon as air cart fan remote (#1) was pushed forward into float to stop the fan, we couldn't lift the drill. Played around for a while. Finally tried reversing the hoses for the drill lift remote (#2). As soon as I flipped them, we could lift/lower the drill with the air cart fan remote (#1) in float or engaged.
So it begs the question. Why is that? Of the two female ends of a tractor remote/SCV, is one specifically meant to be pressure and the other return for lifting implements??
Learn to do it the right way. You have it wrong, many reasons why. |
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Central ND | Fwiw I hook mine up the same way........ |
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| jd4930 - 4/19/2017 20:29
Fwiw I hook mine up the same way........
Some of you don't understand how you need to dump hyd. pressure to fans, drives, etc.
That means you hook things up properly, and you need to use float.
That is not available when you hook things up backwards.
This is not 4020 days anymore. |
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Central ND | So if a person uses float to shut the fans off what difference does it make if I push the button ahead or back to lift my drill up or down? I guess it has worked for years but maybe I need to reverse my hoses in the morning** |
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Lincoln, North Dakota | SDman - 4/19/2017 19:04
.... your regulated pressure is low on your tractor. Very common problem to see on this vintage of tractors as they are getting up there in age,
First off, regulated pressure is the pressure that moves the spools in those remote valves. Think of it as pilot pressure. When you stroke a remote valve, the solenoids on each end of the valve control the movement of the spool with regulated pressure-if the pressure is low, spools don't move like they should, causing numerous problems with remote valves on those tractors.
The solution is to check/adjust regulated pressure. Should be 290-300 psi with hot oil(above 120 degrees F). Then once you do this, you will need to calibrate the remote valves.
Why did switching your hoses around fix the problem? With low regulated pressure, when you went to push the lever ahead to lower(in your case "raise") the implement, your spool in the valve overshot into float position-which is common, especially if you have your remote valve flow set at 100%.
Bingo.
Low regulated pressure will cause some goofy issue. Even low flow
Edited by thorfarms 4/19/2017 22:52
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West Central IL | We've always been forward down back up. Normally when you lift you pull up, and when you want something down I push it down, same as the levers. Push down, pull up. |
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WCOH | mennoboy - 4/19/2017 18:00
We have always been forward is up/back is down.
Do you pull up your pants or push up your pants? |
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Rivers, MB | Wheat77. I appreciate your willingness to offer help.
However, if you had read my post carefully, you would have seen that we do use the float feature for the fan so that it can coast to a stop.
My willingness to learn the correct way to hook up hoses is evidence by making the initial post. |
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NC Iowa | I'm not sure how case hydraulics work. On a JD you have to go through the forward position to get to the float position. So if you pull back to engage the fans, you have to go "through" the opposite cycle to get to float. If you do it quick and perfectly, it really doesn't matter, if your hand slips, or you don't get it in float right away, not only did the fan just dead head, it tried to reverse flow for a second.
If you use down to engage, you can push the lever forward, then into float without any worry. |
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| ....so hard on yourself. I've got customers operating remotes they way you do-yes it's not correct, but they've been doing it for years without damaging anything.
In regards to hooking the remotes up backwards, most major manufacturers' equipment has built in protection for this. On CNH's stuff, they have a one-way check valve in their fan plumbing on air carts and planters so that if you stroke the remote the wrong way, oil just bypasses instead of tearing something up. Also, in the case of not moving the remote into float position to stop the motor, they have a "coast-down valve" that allows the oil to recirculate in the fan circuit to allow a smooth slowdown of the fan. Newer CNH stuff has both features, pretty sure Deere does, too, along with most ag manufacturers. I'm supposed to be a "professional", and I hook more than my fair share of stuff up backwards initially and I haven't had anything major blow-up on me lately.
I would encourage you, though, to install the return line from the fan circuit into the low-pressure return coupler(3/4" coupler on the RH valve stack). Makes life easier on hydraulic components. |
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| Menno: I see you are red Case guy. JD has it in the operators manual how to
use the remotes. This goes back 40 years, when float was always forward, down with the lever.
Think about it this way. Putting your implement down or in the ground, push it forward.
Lift the implement, pull the button or lever back and up. Common sense. |
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SW Sask | Wow. I would not have expected this to be such a hot topic...
1) Mennoboy - as far as I know, there is no "right" or "wrong" way. Per your original question, I think the only issue would be if there was something in the mechanical (or possibly electrical) design that changed behavior of the circuit.
2) I can't speak to planters or other implements, but many fans have backward-swept impeller blades, which is counter-intuitive. So air seeders started putting check valves in the circuit to prevent operators from running the fan backwards quite a while ago. And they also started adding a 'coast-down' circuit years ago as well. When they started using fan motors that required the case drain line, there were a lot of motor seals replaced under warranty because operators weren't used to stopping motors by using 'float'. So a few fittings, a check valve, and a few inches of hose because the preferred design...
3) I'm surprise by the judgement on here. It does remind me of a funny story, though... My dad takes exception to the layout of some auto power window switches because they don't follow the "ahead is down, back is lift" pattern that he expects. I'm sure he is sick of me reminding him that the customer base with ag or construction machinery experience is a small sub-set of their total customer base. And in some cases, there are other factors, eg) the inherent safety of having to pull up on a switch to raise the window, so you don't accidentally lean on the switch and trap your arm in the window (esp for kids and/or pets)...
I can't imagine anything that matters less to me than which way a neighbour has his hydraulics hooked up. I have no basis to judge.
danr |
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Rivers, MB | Thanks for those that made constructive comments. Many of them were very helpful.
We had the CaseIH service tech out. He seems to have solved the problem by changing one of the hydraulic tips on the lift circuit for the drill to a round ball type Pioneer tip from the pin/nipple style.
Will know better after a day of seeding whether it truly solved the problem.
He says a lot of hyd problems stem from the pin type hyd tip. Seems simplistic but we will see.
I questioned him a bit about hooking up hose the "correct way". Except for systems that require the float option like the air seeder fan (which we had hooked up so we could coast to a stop in float), our tractor will work fine with the hoses in either combination. There is a slight increase in flow (possibility up to 3gpm) when hooked up "correctly" but for most applications, losing 3 gpm out of 32-33gpm (max flow thru one remote) is not an issue. |
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tractor hyd - is there a correct way to hook up hoses on a remote/SCV??
