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South Central MN | So as I've posted before, I'm putting up a 2400 head tunnel finish barn. My integrator brought up the question of possibly going wean to finish instead of just straight finishing. My question is what difference there is in the manure. My dad is mostly organic, and so the plan has been to sell him the manure from the barn so he doesn't have to truck in turkey litter. Will the increased income from the wean to finish contract be offset by reduced manure production? How much difference in the manure should I be expecting both in production and analysis? |
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SW MINNESOTA | What's the difference in income between isowean and feeder pigs. I have both and the extra paid for isoweans don't always even cover the extra propane. The feeder pig site always nets more money at end of year. Might go to double stocking next turn, I think the extra they pay for that plus I can ship off the small pigs instead of finishing them out will make it closer. I know I didn't answer your question but make sure the isoweans are worth it aside from the manure. |
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| chirpfarm - 1/30/2017 20:31 My dad is mostly organic, and so the plan has been to sell him the manure from the barn so he doesn't have to truck in turkey litter.
Can manure from non-"organic" livestock production be used for "organic" grain production?
Seems like a farce.
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South Central MN | He's talking another $3-4. We've just kind of discussed broad strokes at this point. I'm new to the hog business. My father in law has a couple of curtain barns, but its going to be tough to compare utility costs on those. I was hoping that the extra income might help get me back to the farm earlier, but haven't really had a chance to pencil out everything yet. How much extra should I expect to pay in utilities? |
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South Central MN | Sure can. I guess they figure its been naturally filtered by the time it gets through the pig. Just have to be careful what pit treatments are used as some of those aren't certified. We don't go out of our way to criticize other methods of farming, and still have a good chunk of our acres farmed conventionally. |
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SE IA | Kooiker - 1/30/2017 19:50
chirpfarm - 1/30/2017 20:31 My dad is mostly organic, and so the plan has been to sell him the manure from the barn so he doesn't have to truck in turkey litter. Can manure from non-"organic" livestock production be used for "organic" grain production? Seems like a farce.
Yes, Hard to believe but it can as long as the pit isn't treated. The concept makes zero sense but it works for the organic certifiers. |
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Northwest Iowa | A lot has to do with the size of feeder pigs you will receive. 35-40lbs or 80 lbs feeders. I have a wean to finish barn that we only single stocked as weaners so only 2500 head wean to finish and have now switched the barn to feeder pigs and now produce about 1/3 more manure. I also get 80lb feeder pigs. The manure value is alittle lower in nitrogen due to the extra washing but I will take the more manure any day.
Things to think about is feeder to finish one extra turn a year so dealing with bigger pigs, more sorting and loading and more washing in a year. I personally like single stock wean to finish but not when the pit is only half full or slightly more every fall. Plus a lot more LP used. Feeder pig site yields more all the way around but comes at a cost which bigger pigs, sorting and loading more often and another washing per year. What business are you in pig business or fertilizer business, right. |
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| chirpfarm - 1/30/2017 20:55 Sure can. I guess they figure its been naturally filtered by the time it gets through the pig. Just have to be careful what pit treatments are used as some of those aren't certified. We don't go out of our way to criticize other methods of farming, and still have a good chunk of our acres farmed conventionally.
Do they actually check for anything that is added to the manure?
Spraying on and lightly incorporating 3000 gpa of weed and feed would sure make "organic" corn yield right up there with conventional.
I don't blame the farmers for taking money from stupid people, I just can't believe how retarded and contradictory some of the allowed vs banned "organic" practices are.
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South Central MN | Hard to say on the testing side. I don't know if they'll actually pull samples or not. I don't think they've ever taken samples of the turkey litter we truck in. I've heard of truckloads of corn getting rejected by the elevator because they tested positive for GMO or some sort. The rest of the loads went through fine, so they figured it was the dust got left in the truck from the guy's previous load and he didn't sweep out well enough. We also had a neighboring farmer out spraying when it was too windy and he torched a good chunk of the edge of our pea field. The inspector actually did take samples of that. I haven't heard how that turned out yet. I'm sure there's organic guys that are cutting corners just like there's conventional guys fudging the yield reports for crop insurance. Why sling mud one way or the other? Thanks for your help. |
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| Here are a few details on my 2400 wean-finish barn
Manure analysis is usually 30-10-30 or pretty close. I've been told that it's a little more concentrated than feeder-finish barns.
I personally love the wean-finish barn. My barn makes two turns a year. I really don't enjoy loading pigs out of the barn so anything to reduce that makes me happy. I'm glad I don't have to do it three times a year. I really enjoy the 5 months between getting them started and when we start loading out. We have been averaging over 300# on pigs going out and that will make you feel like you lost a fight with Mike Tyson!
I believe the key to a wean finish barn is making sure you do it with a very good integrator with phenomenal herd health. Healthy babies will make your job a lot better. A bad group of wean pigs is tough on a person. Lots of babysitting and treating.
Most wean-finish barns in our area, no matter which integrator your with, average around $40/pig space.
On average you can figure $600/month electric. I usually burn 2500 gallon propane a year. My summer start isn't much other than brooders but the winter turn will burn some propane. A full tunnel barn really doesn't save much propane over a curtain barn unless the curtains are a mess. I have 2' emergency curtains on my barn that only drop when a power outage happens. I have friends with full tunnels and they have the same expenses I do.
Hope this helps. |
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South Central MN | Thanks for the help guys. Looks like I have a bit of penciling to do. If anyone else has any info, I'm always open to more info. |
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SW MINNESOTA | If it were me I would probably either go with feeder pigs or double stock isowean if that's an option. |
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| Kooiker - 1/30/2017 21:19
I don't blame the farmers for taking money from stupid people, I just can't believe how retarded and contradictory some of the allowed vs banned "organic" practices are.
Here's a puzzler. Why isn't there USDA Organic urea? Urea is made from the air we breathe and energy. Why can't they make it out of renewable energy so it's OK to use? I asked some friends that had an organic dairy why not push for that instead of trucking manure in from a conventional dairy 20 miles round trip, but they thought it would never happen because they can't use "chemical" fertilzer. Sustainably is supposed to be part of that label isn't it, seems like the opposite of that to me. |
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| Feeder to Finish manure 60-30-35
Nursery alone manure 18-12-15
I don't have a wean-finish barn, but combining the above #'s will get you lower value manure.
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| KBC - 1/31/2017 06:56 Feeder to Finish manure 60-30-35 Nursery alone manure 18-12-15 I don't have a wean-finish barn, but combining the above #'s will get you lower value manure.
FWIW
The manure out of our feeder-finish buildings is pretty close to the 60-30-35 mentioned above.
That's with tube feeders/cup waterers, watching water leaks like a hawk, 2.88 turns/building/year and we do our own power washing.
Not sure what the manure test out of our nursery is yet, have not seen the test results from the sample we sent in last fall.
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| On the subject of hogs manure, Kooiker what have you heard on a brand new building. Filled in October. Is the analysis usually lower? Only an inch of rainwater in it when I filled it. |
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North West IA/western AZ | Kooiker - 1/31/2017 06:32
Not sure what the manure test out of our nursery is yet, have not seen the test results from the sample we sent in last fall.
Where do you send your samples? I was using a lab in Cherokee and usually had the results within 2 weeks. |
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| Buster 50 - 1/31/2017 09:30 Where do you send your samples? I was using a lab in Cherokee and usually had the results within 2 weeks.
Goes through the elevator, not sure what lab without looking.
I'd guess that they've had it back for a while already and my brother may even have it, I just haven't seen it yet.
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| I would think with that little bit of rain water and basically a year before you pump that it would be basically the same as your other barns as long as the feeders/waterers and the rations were the same.
Only difference I'd for see is that the first year you pump you probably won't pump out quite as much as the following years.
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Northwest Iowa | I would echo the manure analysis. Our straight finishing manure is 55-28-35. I have some barns that are better. The wean to finish manure was better . It was over 60 on the nitrogen and P and K was higher as well. I feel it was from less washing. cup waters and usimg your soakers on a timer are a must for having good manure. Wet dry feeders help as well. Good luck |
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That's interesting that the wean/finish barn has better manure. If that's normally true, I stand corrected. I wonder why? I doubt it is less wash water. Even at 16 hours X 5 gpm, for a 1200 hd. one more wash per year in a feeder/finish barn is only 4800 gallons....roughly 1% of the pit volume. I can't imagine running one more cycle per year on the soakers can be significant either if they are on timers. |
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| Not to be too critical but are you trying to raise hogs or manure?
Manure is ultimately a byproduct. It has value, and it sounds like you can capitalize on it which is awesome but is it what you need to worry about the most? Do dairy guys worry more about milk production or feeder calf prices? Just something to think about.
I'm wean to finish and prefer it. I'd rather deal with 10 pound pigs than another loadout of 280+ pound pigs. I'm not the first to say that. Pay per head should be a little better and you can do all the wean pig work pretty much yourself vs. needing a crew to load out. If you build a barn to be wean-finish and end up feeder to finish in a few years you have some unused equipment but if you go the other way (and more integrators are going away from nurseries all the time) you'll have to add equipment. Operating cost shouldn't change too much, maybe a little more propane but should also run less fans on big pigs.... I guess it's probably what you'd prefer in the end. To answer on your manure, pit is the same size either way. I always appreciate having a little extra room in there every year. |
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| I'm surprised by the manure analysis being that high for a feeder to finish barn. One additional washing doesn't add much water BUT those bigger pigs will drink ALOT more than the wean pigs will until they get to feeder pig size.
I'm really shocked how you guys are getting analysis like 55-30-50..... best I've ever had was 35-12-30. Mostly cup waterers with a swinger in each pen. All dry feed. I pump roughly 700k gallon a year out of my barn (2400 hd). I guess I'm glad my phos number isn't higher. |
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South Central MN | In the end, I'm trying to make money. That was the whole point of mentioning the organic side of things was to show that I have a permanent customer for the manure. I'm trying to balance out if the increase in contract income would be offset by any decrease in manure income. There's obviously more to it than that, but it was a question I didn't have a ready answer for. I appreciate everyone adding in their info, I really like gathering everything I can. I've had several people tell me wean to finish isn't worth the hassle, so it's interesting to see other views.
Secondly I also want to find out just how much wean to finish would affect manure production. I know many guys say that working for poop is crazy, but our situation is a bit different. Having our own fertilizer factory dovetails very nicely with the organic production where we can't just go apply nh3. Knowing how much of a hit we might take on manure production is important to us, even if it might not make as much sense for a conventional guy to be worried about it.
FWIW the feeders are wet dry. Integrator wants to add a waterer for the isoweans. Thank you all for the input, keep it coming. |
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| Your organic idea is NOT crazy. I have a good friend who's family has 400 hd dairy switching to organic and they are adding a double wide right in the middle of the grazing land. I think it's a great idea. The only requirement is that you have to enjoy livestock.....
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South Central MN | My crazy comment was more about anybody who builds a hog barn just for the manure. I've heard more than once that those people are crazy to be literally working for ****. We might be crazy too, but there is a method to the madness ;-) thanks for the advice. |
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South Central MN | Do you get any sort of contract bump going double vs single stock? |
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SW MINNESOTA | The guys I feed for pay 3 bucks a pig space for double vs single. Would be 7 double fill isowean vs feeders. We also get a pretty good incentive after each turn for feed conversion, death loss, sort loss and such. My thinking is with the double stock I can sort off the small pigs and the gilts and keep the big barrows and gain a little more on the back end with incentives. Will have to sort and load out half after 6 weeks or so but don't think day to day labor be much more. Might even use a bit less gas during winter fill since there will be more pigs.
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SW MINNESOTA | My email is good if you want more info |
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Northwest Iowa | Swingers are a killer. I had one swinger in my one barn with big pens and when I took them out my N went up 10 lbs per 1000 gallons. I only had 9 of them in the room. I had cup waters as well |
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| Mmac - 1/31/2017 17:30 Swingers are a killer.
Nipple waterers in general are a water efficiency killer.
We had swinging nipple waterers in a building for too many years. Its amazing how much less "manure" there is too pump after removing those from the building and the analysis went way up.
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| I would figure with wean pigs you basically are going an extra 6 weeks a year without any manure (first 3 weeks of 2 groups per year). They're just so small and don't produce much manure. My double wide replaces 80 acres of dry fertilizer in a corn soybean wheat rotation (shoot for 10,000 gallons/acre all injected). We add 15 gallon of 28% cut with a liquid sulfur product with the planter and sidedress 28% on the corn ground but it's more piece of mind (check strips show it doesn't really pay). Also add a little nitrogen to wheat. I'd think corn soybean rotation would work out ok every other year for a few years but you would be building p and k levels. Look for a cover crop that you could bale and wouldn't need much nitrogen and you just fertilized 160 acres ongoing.
Edit: grammar. Dang autocorrect.
Edited by kst1 2/1/2017 06:01
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SW MN - mt. lake/windom | I tend to agree with kbc. I see similar nursery and finishing manure results as kbc. The nursery "phase" (13-50lbs) will probably only contribute 10-15% of overall manure production, so if nutrients are 1/3 that of finishing, it should theoretically only lower nutrient value by 3-5% overall then subtract off the extra wash water at 1% dilution net 2-4% reduction of w/f vs f/f. Probably not to big of a factor, lets say the manure has a overall value at $15k, may only result in a 450$ reduction, probably should focus on other financial factors. I would agree with kookier and others that water management is going to be the biggest factor in nutrient density. |
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Central Illinois | Kooiker - 1/30/2017 20:19
chirpfarm - 1/30/2017 20:55 Sure can. I guess they figure its been naturally filtered by the time it gets through the pig. Just have to be careful what pit treatments are used as some of those aren't certified. We don't go out of our way to criticize other methods of farming, and still have a good chunk of our acres farmed conventionally. Do they actually check for anything that is added to the manure? Spraying on and lightly incorporating 3000 gpa of weed and feed would sure make "organic" corn yield right up there with conventional. I don't blame the farmers for taking money from stupid people, I just can't believe how retarded and contradictory some of the allowed vs banned "organic" practices are.
I believe they check the soil regularly and would possibly see residue from commercial fert. Have looked into organic but not the one who makes crop decisions. |
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Hog manure - wean to finish vs straight feeder?
