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SE MT | Made this video a little while back, contrasting the older tractors to what's being made today. Could have went more in depth, I might make another vid...
Wondering if most people feel the way I do or if I'm in the minority? There's lots of different avenues to take this discussion, and I know that old technology doesn't work for everyone, but I'm wondering are todays tractors really any better than what was produced even 15 years ago? I don't think so.
Thought I'd post it up for you guys to take a look and judge for yourself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWHrPZ7b1Y |
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| Agree with you for the most point except I differ slightly on the opinion of the "10" series, I had a not so good experience with a 7810.
Problem I would have with trying to farm the way I am in today's environment, more acres with fewer employees, the 40 year old tractors are not nearly big enough to handle the tillage equipment I use. On half the acres I farm today with two employees and myself it took seven men in 1978 to get the job done.
Edited by Dirtman1 12/31/2016 17:36
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| The 30 series were called generation 2, produced from 73-77. |
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SE MT | I could see how capacity is an issue. My experience with farming is next to zero, we ranch primarily and put up quite a bit of hay when the year allows it-
In the era of GPS, fly by wire, ect technology, can a person even make a living with the tractors of 15-20 year ago?
It seems from where my seat is that John Deere is solely committed to big farming, no one else. They have lost interest in everyone else it seems a long time ago. |
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SE MT | Thanks, I knew there was a generation in there I was missing- New generation was just the 10 and 20 series then? |
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central Indiana | well would not be 78 or 79's last year was 1977 |
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| I have a friend that works at a diesel engine plant and he is always chuckling at how little farmers use their tractors, he says most farmers are putting less than 500 hours a year on medium size tractors and less than 300-400 on high HP tractors.... Diesel fume is using them more than average with 9000 hours on a 7510 - because he sounds to have livestock, so that pushes the hours up way beyond the average row cropper..... My friend constantly tells me about mining equipment that's used at max load for a high % of 2-3 shifts per day and 6000-8000 hours per year. They go for 10,000-20,000 hours between major overhauls, going on to over 100,000 hours, within hard working and abrasive conditions. So what he says is, the amount of hours put on a tractor is becoming less and less as equipment gets bigger, plus if most farmers only use a tractor for maybe 300-500 hours per year, they probably don't need the reliability or build quality compared to say mining equipment. They also study engine loads and if a tractor is used for 500 hours, it spends like 20% idling and less than 50% under heavy load (roading, turning etc). Don't shoot the messenger and Happy New Year to everyone.
Edited by Dan NW IA 12/31/2016 18:37
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waterloo iowa | When I worked at deere there was an article about some little village in Alaska that had all their power generated from 2 12.5 Deere motors,,one or the other was always running,They had bought them as a temporary fix but then kept using them because of simplicity..If you think about train and boat motors,some of them are expected to run for months at a time |
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West Central IL | I think the thing that wears out tractors now a days, it's either livestock where it runs every day, or it just gets passed on for better technology even though it's low houred. There's a wave of equipment manufactured early-mid 00's that are plenty capable, but weren't autotrac ready. A guy could spend a few grand to update it, or put the money into a newer machine with it already integrated. Also, look back at the 55-60 series deeres. A guy could keep on running one just fine, but look at the hydraulic capacity and the size of the cab on that 8400 when it came out. Time to trade. Seems like today, it's the high horse that I can now trade up and pull a bigger implement, or pick up a mile and hour or two with the one I got. Time to trade. Next up could be an automas tractor, or something completely different. |
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SE MT | That's kind of the point I was getting at in the video-
When we traded off the 4250 for the 7200 back in the late 90s, WOW. what a difference We were sure we'd never revisit the old iron horses. We then had a 6715, and the 7510. We should have kept all 3. Only the 7510 remains.
It has about 9000 hours on the clock, and has mostly sat in the last couple years since we mostly save it for just baling hay and planting now.
The 4630s while a bit crude and unrefined, do the job asked of them, are cheap and reliable. Many farmers/ranchers in this area in the past year or two that traded off good tractors for an "r" series, and have been nothing but broke down.
There were great improvements in technology, power, capability and reliability when the 7000 series tractors came out. There hasn't been that same leap forward since then. If anything, it's went backwards. Same reason our 7510 is still worth near $60K today with 9000 hours on the clock. |
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mn | Most of the new tractors that are "broke down" are functioning perfectly mechanically but are electronically broke down. (To me that is an artificial breakdown)
Most of those issues can't be fixed or even diagnosed by even the most mechanically inclined farmers. That means a service call. Which is fine under warranty, but when that tractor is 25 years old and in the budget of a smaller operation, the repairs could likely be unaffordable. |
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| jtpfarm - 12/31/2016 22:30
Most of the new tractors that are "broke down" are functioning perfectly mechanically but are electronically broke down. (To me that is an artificial breakdown)
Most of those issues can't be fixed or even diagnosed by even the most mechanically inclined farmers. That means a service call. Which is fine under warranty, but when that tractor is 25 years old and in the budget of a smaller operation, the repairs could likely be unaffordable.
How true! |
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Western-Central Lower Michigan | jtpfarm - 12/31/2016 22:30
Most of the new tractors that are "broke down" are functioning perfectly mechanically but are electronically broke down. (To me that is an artificial breakdown)
Most of those issues can't be fixed or even diagnosed by even the most mechanically inclined farmers. That means a service call. Which is fine under warranty, but when that tractor is 25 years old and in the budget of a smaller operation, the repairs could likely be unaffordable.
Ive seen those electrical gremlins, most farmers just "learn to live with it". Its very frustrating to have no heat in below freezing weather because of the climate control not working. Same for no A/C in summer for no apparent reason.
Kind of wish they would go back to when they had good A/C, cabs and very light on the electronics. |
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ecmn | Yes I agree that John Deere is building China bearing junk.
Electronics have been out long enough that electronic engine and transmission control should be a non issue at this point.
I agree we do not need electronics in the cab to show you which lights to turn on and turnoff.
The electric over hydraulic control is very nice though it makes her a good operating day easy to adjust should be quote unquote simple electronics.
A lot of the electric over hydraulic is cheaper and easier to fix.
Like diff lock Running a mechanical valve to the cab you have expensive hose vs wire, just another leak waiting to happen. A simple switch and wire to a solenoid is cheap and very reliable and easy to diagnose.
It's when they put a computer in there that makes trouble shooting a pain. |
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SE MT | But see, here's where I can't agree with that. It's not a learning curve. When my grandpa and great grandpa had As and Bs they RAN out and bought a new 2520 for ranch work because it was obviously better! not only was production increased, but reliability and serviceability wasn't. Same thing all through my childhood, folks traded every few years because the tractors were improving. That peaked about 15 years ago.
Maybe the newer tractors can cover more acreage, but the local farmers here have not traded up (won't) and simply say you can't cover more acreage when your tractor's broke down.... or I'm not making payments on a new tractor so I can't use it.
This business now of not being able to open the hood on a deere tractor under warranty or else it's voided is complete nonsense........ IVT transmissions? non serviceable, over $30,000? who seriously buys this stuff? |
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Ne Nebraska | dieselfume1 - 12/31/2016 17:36
I could see how capacity is an issue. My experience with farming is next to zero, we ranch primarily and put up quite a bit of hay when the year allows it-
In the era of GPS, fly by wire, ect technology, can a person even make a living with the tractors of 15-20 year ago?
It seems from where my seat is that John Deere is solely committed to big farming, no one else. They have lost interest in everyone else it seems a long time ago.
Wow.... you can't make a living on anything older than a 2002???.....Keep making payments and drinking the cool aid |
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Northeastern Pa. | All good arguments. As a very small operator that hates debt and can't stomach $100 /hr. shop rates is why I have older equipment. If I can't fix most everything myself I don't want it. I don't work on tranny or engines but I can fix most anything else. We have a 7210 tractor and a 9600 combine as our newest equipment. When I see an idiot light come on I have a panic attack. If it's not in the hard wiring or a mechanical issue I know I'm in trouble. And those 2 aren't as complicated as the new stuff. I was looking ( for fun) at a new Quad-track with the 55 gallon barrel for an exhaust and then asked what it would cost to replace it. Wow that would be my repair budget for my whole line of equipment for the year. Size of your operation and income is a big factor on buying new. That is why our local Deere dealer just sent a bunch of his inventory of up to 2 year old new tractors to Florida. Small farms here plus down turn in milk and grain prices. |
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| Progress doesn't always equate to better.The EPA changes since 2007 have made tractors more complicated and less reliable.I bought a new 8330 and 9530 in 2007 and had 0 problems.I updated to newer R series with DEF and that tractor spent more time for small simple things at JD[all warranted] than any tractor I have owned except for an 8630 that had continuous updates.I sold it and bought basically the same tractor[8320R]with out all the emission and went back to reliable powershift.I deal in many 20/30/40/50/55 series tractors and they have few problems and resale is good.Most people over 55 that still have flip phones,can figure in their head,and not computer smart ,still think simple is better. |
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Mid-Michigan | I don't know if this fits your question but my 7720 is 10 times better than my 4430 was. Basically I like new advancements. I like new technology. I like creature comforts. Not much I own now I would trade for what I had 30 years ago. With that being said, that only deals with high dollar items for me (trucks, tractors etc.). Right now I can't buy a decent American made shovel anywhere. I can't buy a step ladder that I feel safe on. |
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NW KS/ SC ID | dieselfume1 - 12/31/2016 16:36
I could see how capacity is an issue. My experience with farming is next to zero, we ranch primarily and put up quite a bit of hay when the year allows it-
In the era of GPS, fly by wire, ect technology, can a person even make a living with the tractors of 15-20 year ago?
It seems from where my seat is that John Deere is solely committed to big farming, no one else. They have lost interest in everyone else it seems a long time ago.
A rancher/ farmer we bought a combine from was telling us how bad his 6430? JD is and how he was hell bent to find a 4450 mfwd to replace it. |
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| dieselfume1 - 1/1/2017 08:12
But see, here's where I can't agree with that. It's not a learning curve. When my grandpa and great grandpa had As and Bs they RAN out and bought a new 2520 for ranch work because it was obviously better! not only was production increased, but reliability and serviceability wasn't. Same thing all through my childhood, folks traded every few years because the tractors were improving. That peaked about 15 years ago.
Maybe the newer tractors can cover more acreage, but the local farmers here have not traded up (won't) and simply say you can't cover more acreage when your tractor's broke down.... or I'm not making payments on a new tractor so I can't use it.
This business now of not being able to open the hood on a deere tractor under warranty or else it's voided is complete nonsense........ IVT transmissions? non serviceable, over $30,000? who seriously buys this stuff?
Seems you need alot more research and a lot less opinionation here. I find it hilarious that people honestly think a fricken 7810 was the peak. Just because all the old timers are scared of technology must mean new tractors are junk. Yes they are very complex. Yes the emissions suck but we are to the point now where emissions are reliable if cared for correctly. And to the warranty side of things are people that dense? Let's say I buy a tractor from you with a warranty and you say do not open the hood and I do and I break something, should you have to pay for the repair because of me? I think everyone forgets that standard warranty covers ONLY MANUFACTURING DEFECTS NOT OPERATOR STUPIDITY
And on the Ivt note. What do you think you as a farmer are going to fix. It seems some can barely comprehend anything beyond a 7810 so how are they going to figure out a transmission as complex as an intern which by the way requires special tools that even the dealer has to buy? |
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SE MT | Easy there......
I'm not an old timer. I'm at the end of the millennial generation which I hate being associated with to tell you the truth.
You're justifying that emissions equipment are ok if cared for correctly, yet don't offer an avenue for profit when those tractors get up in years and all of those parts become liabilities..... NO ONE WILL WANT THEM, and they will have terrible re-sale value. Same reason that the 7010 series tractors are worth almost as much with 9000 hours on the clock as they were NEW. That tells you right there where the demand is.
The warranty situation I was talking about was where an operator had problems with his newer series tractor, opened the hood to change his air filter because he knew it was bad, and within an hour he said the deere service truck was pulling into his driveway. He didn't call them, they just showed up because they knew the engine had "coded", told him that he had voided his warranty by opening the hood and trying to service his engine....
You cant buy a tractor and service it anymore?
As for the IVT, what a joke. It's the the fact it takes special tooling, it's the fact that Deere doesn't want ANYONE working on it. How can deere expect a customer to pay that much for a transmission repair? What was wrong with the quad range or powershift?
Just because Deere makes it doesn't mean it's great...........Anymore. The band loyalists make me sick, I buy what works, doesn't break down, I'm mechanical so I can keep older stuff running if it needs it. Any yes, the 7010 series were the peak before they went downhill.
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SE MT | No doubt that I'd take a 8400 or the newer 10/20 or even 30 series tractors over my 4630s, but the point I was trying to get at was Value. These brand new tractors aren't worth what they're asking for what they will return and re-sell for. |
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| dieselfume1 - 1/1/2017 11:05
Easy there......
I'm not an old timer. I'm at the end of the millennial generation which I hate being associated with to tell you the truth.
You're justifying that emissions equipment are ok if cared for correctly, yet don't offer an avenue for profit when those tractors get up in years and all of those parts become liabilities..... NO ONE WILL WANT THEM, and they will have terrible re-sale value. Same reason that the 7010 series tractors are worth almost as much with 9000 hours on the clock as they were NEW. That tells you right there where the demand is.
The warranty situation I was talking about was where an operator had problems with his newer series tractor, opened the hood to change his air filter because he knew it was bad, and within an hour he said the deere service truck was pulling into his driveway. He didn't call them, they just showed up because they knew the engine had "coded", told him that he had voided his warranty by opening the hood and trying to service his engine....
You cant buy a tractor and service it anymore?
As for the IVT, what a joke. It's the the fact it takes special tooling, it's the fact that Deere doesn't want ANYONE working on it. How can deere expect a customer to pay that much for a transmission repair? What was wrong with the quad range or powershift?
Just because Deere makes it doesn't mean it's great...........Anymore. The band loyalists make me sick, I buy what works, doesn't break down, I'm mechanical so I can keep older stuff running if it needs it. Any yes, the 7010 series were the peak before they went downhill.
All good points. And deere fan boy I am not in all honesty I'm an allis man but deere signs my pay checks. I personally have worked on two tractors with emissions that are run on big cattle operations. They both have over 10k hours and neither one has had but 1 or two minor issues which were both due to contaminates fluid.
The warranty situation in your case is no doubt a bad deal but it's in the warranty paperwork that nobody reads that doing that voids warranty. It seems dumb but case new Holland is the samessage way as is Agcoming.
Also deere still does make the power shift and the Ivt and ps both have pros and cons |
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KY | I enjoyed your video, thanks for posting. I do agree with what you are saying. Some farms like yours the old equipment is still a good fit for but some farms require much more. Boils down to no two farms are the same. |
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| I can remember a conservation I had with a john deere service manager who started as a mechanic and then part owner of a family owned jd dealership here in northern new York.they later sold the franchise to another excellent dealer 30 miles from us that was also a family operation.our conversation centered around the newer tractors loaded with electronics.he commented that when this new stuff gets to be the age of the 20,30, and 40 series tractors they'll all be in the scrap yards or fence rows because first all the mechanics knowledgeable on them will be retired and gone and secondly there won't be any parts available to fix them with.this man was very knowledgeable and outspoken--john deere hated to cope with him at service meetings as he "told it like it was" and mama deere doesn't like someone taking the customers side.and yes he worked for years as service manager for that dealership.he is now close to 80 and his thoughts on the whole scenario haven't changed. |
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NW oklahoma | dieselfume1 - 12/31/2016 17:36
I could see how capacity is an issue. My experience with farming is next to zero, we ranch primarily and put up quite a bit of hay when the year allows it-
In the era of GPS, fly by wire, ect technology, can a person even make a living with the tractors of 15-20 year ago?
It seems from where my seat is that John Deere is solely committed to big farming, no one else. They have lost interest in everyone else it seems a long time ago.
With today's commodity prices can a person even make a payment on a tractor thats less than 15 years old?? I know I can't, mayb those guys that have oil wells and farm for fun. |
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SE MT | This is the conversation I've had with Deere mechanics as well.
They had a 7010 series tractor in last year that they tell me had a bad ECM/ECU. Deere no longer offered it as a repair part, they had to source one out of a salvage yard somewhere.
Why and how could this be?
There was rumor that deere was going to re-introduce the 4020 with a modern engine for a drastically reduced price. then it sounded like the idea got scrapped. do ya think they got to wondering about how many people would buy one of them instead of their "modern" tractors?
The market is prime for someone to come in and undercut the tractor industry.
The part that stinks the most is that Deere used to be all about the customer.... now it's just about Deere.... even the dealerships are reflecting this now. You'd swear they thought they were caterpillar. lol |
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SE MT | My comment was a question about farmers today being able to make a living with older equipment... I don't know what's required to make a living on a farm, so I was asking the question.
Our ranching operation takes about 15-30 acres per cow. Hay ground produces an average of about .75-1.5 tons per acre on years when it does produce... Annual rainfall of about 11-15 inches.
Making out here is all but certain. spending $140K on a new feeding tractor that may not be reliable isn't in anyone's budget. |
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| it's interesting you bring cat into this discussion.i have a brother that worked years 33 as a service trainer and failure analnysis tech as one of the top techs in the cat company along with a lad working for cruthers machinery in Hamilton,ont --these two men saw only situations no one could solve. the Syracuse dealer was extremely customer oriented.the day Syracuse was sold that all changed from the customer comes first to the bottom line comes first and the customer response to this treatment spoke loud and clear. yes two different companys and brands but similar changes in attitude. |
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The JD "Expendable" 30 series vs new...... opinions?
