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NCSD | I need advice with my mineral program in my cow herd. I have been using crystalyx tubs for a few years now. I feel they are a good product but expensive. Best thing about them: no loss from weather and every cow gets a chance.
My problem is my dad thinks they are worthless. He says there is nowhere near enough mineral content in them to keep cattle alive. Every cow we lost this last year he blames on my mineral program.
I have been using the rolyx - max tubs during spring and summer months. And BGF-30 fall and winter.
Am I really abusing my cows that much? Am I that much of a fool to believe the sales pitch saying the tubs deliver 100% Nutrient requirements?
Thanks for the replies.
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| To keep cattle alive? Unless your area has a significant mineral deficiency or over abundance of a certain mineral your cows shouldn't just go feet up.
My old man pulled that crap with me when I was just starting too, anything that got sick or died was from a decision I made that wasn't what he'd have done. My cure for that was having the deceased posted after asking his opinion on why they died. Only takes a couple times of being wrong in front of a vet to fix.
Have used tubs and loose mineral throughout the years in different situations. The loose mineral has been cheaper by far, roughly $26/pair/year. While the tubs are nicer to use in a fall/open winter situation where a guy doesn't have time to feed cubes everyday to meet protein needs. As far as the mineral package in tubs, the only thing I've seen missing in some is salt. Other than that they do the same job as loose mineral.
Don't beat yourself up too much, stuff happens when you own livestock. |
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West Cental Arkansas | Regardless of what you do or how well you do it if you have livestock some are going to die.
If you don't want to lose any livestock, you need to sell all your cattle. Then there will be no more loss.
Anyone who says they don't ever have cattle that die is telling a lie or they don't have any.
Been in this business ever since I was a kid and that was a long time ago and I ain't figured out how to keep them all alive.
Don't worry, just keep on plodding along and it will all work out in the end. Can't say I lived by that rule when I was young, but it has been many moons since I was young.
Good luck with the decisions you make.
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NE Oklahoma | Been using feed in the drum tubs ( same as the crystalx tub,) for the last 5 yrs , love it, also been told all the min they need is in the tub except for salt, would only need to put a little salt but we put free choice mineral out instead maybe we're wasting money, they do go through quite a bit of min. I don't think the tubs are expensive @ 3/4 lb/ hd / day = .30 per day |
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NE SD | There are better less expensive alternative tubs
DDG based sweetpro |
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North Central Texas | He is telling you that you are wasting money. Whatever is premixed and the easiest isn't the best. Cheapest and best is loose mineral. The easy way always makes you pay.
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Montana | Crystalyx is a good product. But the problem is its too expensive for the commercial cattle guy. I like loose mineral cause it's cheap and gets the job done. |
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Watkinsville, GA | +1. Im considereal a youngster myself. But I do know if you've got them they will die and get out!! But am using a 24% protein tub rite in our beef pasture. It's from our local feed mill/co-op |
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NE KS | Figure your protein they are eating and if it is + 10% the use loose mineral. Grazings stalks and nibs in fall use protium tub. |
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South West MN | 30 cents will get me there loose mineral and 4 lb of distillers on a dry mater basis.
It the tubs only cost 15 cents extra a day and you have a hundred cows that is $15 a day.
That is $5475 a year. Over a 30 year career that is $164,250. Not figuring any interest.
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Saronville NE | I will admit I don't put much mineral out mainly due to I think $28 a bag is ridiculous. Maybe 10 bags a year total. But they must not lack it cause when I put it out they don't just engulf it it will last couple weeks. Salt is what I can't seem to keep in front of them, they just engulf salt and that's year round and I keep salt in front of them, you miss a week or two then put another bag out it will be gone in a matter of hours.
Only time I put tubs out is on cornstalks, it helps them last longer grazing stalks. Otherwise they get some alfalfa or wdg when in lot calving for protein instead of lick tubs.
Edit:
Last time I lost a cow was due to having twins and both were backwards and didn't catch her soon nuff. And before that it had been years but had one lay upside down in a ditch in a cornfield and not get up. So doubt if my 1 bag a month mineral program is too blame.
Edited by ahay68979 12/2/2016 07:46
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Western OK | We use the mvp tubs and throw out a blue salt block. Weve used different kinds of loose mineral but it seems they would just eat it for the fun of it so we would cut it half and half with loose salt. The loose mineral is probibly half the price of the tubs, but we get the fly killer"igr?" In the summer and you get some protein. Plus you dont have to buy mineral feeders for the bulls and the wind to tear up. Also you dont have to move mineral feeders you just put the new tub and salt block in a different spot. |
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northwest tennessee | My problem is my dad thinks they are worthless. He says there is nowhere near enough mineral content in them to keep cattle alive. Every cow we lost this last year he blames on my mineral program. I agree with paw. |
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South Texas | I get some mineral tubs, 4% protien. About $90 for 200 lb. About the same analysis as bagged mineral which is slightly cheaper but requires a feeder or you get some ruint in the rain. |
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NEMO | Loose mineral here. So Feelrite, do we need to have the vet post them all to prove to you and his dad that's probably not the problem?? Doubt if very many cows die from a mineral deficiency,,,check out those ones Puff brings home |
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WI | A little different situation, I use dry cow lick tubs for my dairy herd from Oct to April, when the dry cows are brought in off pasture. Mostly sprout from fleet farm occasionally the crystalyx.
I can honestly say that I haven't had a case of milk fever using them. |
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Central Saskatchewan Canada | Mineral doesn't just keep them alive. It helps with conception, rate of gain and overall health.
Doesn't matter how much preaching a person does. A non believer in mineral will not change his mind. They will think up any excuse not to change there ways. |
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WY, OK | I am guessing there is quite a bit of hyperbole going on and bad communication. Frankly if he thinks lack of mineral kills a cow he shouldn't be around livestock but I bet that isn't what is being said but it is what you hear. On the other hand lick tubs are the most expensive waste of money around IMO. Throw out some trace mineral salt blocks along with a few loose mineral feeders and you'll be fine. Hell don't give them anything and they'll be fine just might not conceive as well. Cattle made it thousands of years without us giving them mineral, all we are doing now is trying to catch the fringes that need it. |
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SW So Dakota | Cows don't need protein supplemented year round. I feed a chelated loose mineral year round mixed with salt to control consumption and alfalfa hay for protein when they need it. I think you are spending way more than you need to.
Edited by Big Swede 12/2/2016 13:29
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all over Iowa | Cattle will always voluntarily consume salt - usually more than what they need but not enough to cause a problem or cost very much.
Cows will crave calcium and phosphorus if they are deficient at a metabolic level. That is - they will crave enough calcium and phosphorus to keep their lungs and heart and muscles working. They will not crave additional Ca & Phos that could improve milk production or aid with conception.
To me, the most important part of a mineral (whether loose, block or tub) is the trace mineral and vitamin levels. These have a huge impact on reproduction & health (both the cow and the calf) and their availability in home grown feeds and pastures are questionable at best. Cattle will not crave missing trace minerals or vitamins - they'll just go on doing what cows do and maybe not get bred, or wean a lighter calf, or live a shorter life. |
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all over Iowa | When you compare the mineral contents on the tags, you need to take into account that they should eat 3-6 times more tub per day than loose mineral. |
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all over Iowa | eight - 12/2/2016 07:36 I get some mineral tubs, 4% protien. About $90 for 200 lb. About the same analysis as bagged mineral which is slightly cheaper but requires a feeder or you get some ruint in the rain.
Yep.
Another advantage is you can put a weeks worth of mineral out, and you know it will take them about a week to consume it instead of loose mineral which they sometime eat 8 ounces today and none for the next two days. We know from both controlled studies and real life pasture experience that fly control is better if IGR is in a tub instead of a loose mineral, because the cows eat a more even daily dose of it.
There is also some research from the human medicine side that sugar (many tubs are molasses based) helps improve the digestibility and absorption of trace minerals and vitamins. |
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Texas | oldtiger - 12/2/2016 07:42 Doubt if very many cows die from a mineral deficiency,,,
The reason cows die from mineral deficiency is that without enough calcium in their diet the hooves don't grow big enough to hold them down........ therefore they float to the top and prevent the cow from being able to graze. |
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all over Iowa | That's really good, I'll have to remember that one |
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Central Iowa | Used to get baked tubs. now we are using MIX 30 with salt blocks. http://www.mix30.com/ http://www.mix30.com/wp-content/uploads/A-MIX-30-PLUS-Agridyne.pdf |
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northwest tennessee | Yes the baked are hard. I used to get Forage Star and they were good but cant now. |
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South Dakota | I agree with ya on the tubs being a waste of money. It's years like this that that feed expense may be the difference between red and black ink. I agree that the cow herd shouldn't need protein supplementation year round. Like Swede said, feed some alfalfa for that. I'd go with a good loose mineral and salt.
It's time to pinch pennies, boys. |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | schmitty - 12/1/2016 22:38 I need advice with my mineral program in my cow herd. I have been using crystalyx tubs for a few years now. I feel they are a good product but expensive. Best thing about them: no loss from weather and every cow gets a chance. My problem is my dad thinks they are worthless. He says there is nowhere near enough mineral content in them to keep cattle alive. Every cow we lost this last year he blames on my mineral program. I have been using the rolyx - max tubs during spring and summer months. And BGF-30 fall and winter. Am I really abusing my cows that much? Am I that much of a fool to believe the sales pitch saying the tubs deliver 100% Nutrient requirements? Thanks for the replies. This topic comes up every so often. Hoping to learn something myself, I just printed out and compared the Crystalyx data sheets for your two products above and the Crystalyx Mineral-lyx tubs which I keep out free choice year round, along with separate white salt blocks in trays, for all cows, bulls, calves and yearlings. I've used just Mineralyx for about 10 years now, initially on the recommendation of a very experienced neighbor who has used them for much longer than that. I had a newborn calf die of hypothermia a couple years ago, before I moved my calving date back. I had reasons to suspect something else so my vet and I agreed to have this one posted at the UW Veterinary clinic in Madison. The report came back with no other cause of death which was a relief. However the report also said that in their posts they do a mineral profile and the calf in question had very high scores in all of the mineral deficiencies they check. Basically they said "keep up whatever mineral program you are using". Without going into a long winded discussion: - The Rolyx seems to be a Rabon fly mineral, it has no potassium, otherwise is similar to Mineral-lyx - BGF-30 seems to be primarily a protein (30%) source although it has a similar list of minerals to Mineral-lyx but in different amounts. Per your quote above, are you really using the tubs for "100% of nutrient requirements"??? You must be feeding hay, stalks, etc in addition to the tubs. There should be nutrients in whatever else you are feeding and not just roughage. Imho, a mineral tub should be just that, a mineral tub, and not the primary source of protein. That seems like it would get expensive. I suspect the 30% protein tub is mostly for emergency situations. Without knowing your complete situation, I would suggest you switch to Mineral-lyx + a salt block for your mineral program and find some other source of protein for your herd. Check whatever else you are feeding for protein level first. Beef cattle only need maybe 8-10% total protein daily. What does your hay, etc test for protein? I agree with your comments about mineral tubs - zero waste and every animal gets what they need. I tried dry mineral and ended up throwing most of it out when it turned to rock with very little actually consumed. Not so cheap after all in my opinion. Good luck. Try to keep peace with your Dad also. Maybe you could make a change and not make it a personal stand-off. jmho.
Edited by Jim 12/3/2016 00:48
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Texas | I started putting the IGR in 20% cattle cubes and also put the mineral in them too. In fact, I use the cubes to "deliver" their 4 oz. of mineral per day, the IGR, vitamins, iodine (for foot rot) and Rumensin. Each animal will eat the complete pile of cubes each day and it has proven to be a fabulous method of supplementing them while on pasture. As a side benefit..... I can also lead them wherever I desire!!
I have used cubes for delivering wormer and it is a good method. Because the wormer has a short shelf life I prefer to pour them in the chute, but the point is that cubes are also a good method to worm cattle. |
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Ne Nebraska | Jim,
How much do you figure you spend per pair per year on tubs and salt? Never feed tubs here except replacement heifers on cornstalks for 2-3 months a year. Does this end up similar to feeding loose mineral and salt on a yearly basis? I've been feeding 1/2 loose mineral 1/2 loose salt mix free choice and end up using around 1.25 bags of each per pair per year. So around $30-32 a year. |
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NCSD | Well, I guess I am pretty foolish to believe the crystalyx sales pitch. Honestly I'm surprised there aren't more guys doing the tub program.
Guess I'll probably be making a switch back to bagged mineral.
Next question: what is the best feeder? How can I keep the Bulls from spilling and the wind blowing it away?
Thanks. |
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WI |
.
http://www.meyermfg.com/rocky.php |
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South Texas | I agree I do notice more even consumption with the tubs. |
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Paradise KS | Great explanation. My dad can always tell when people are lacking in their mineral program. Course he was also a mineral salesman for years, but even after he quit he still believes in a good mineral program. Cows just seem to look nicer, hair is slicker and shiny. Their overall health is vastly improved even if you can't notice it.
There is no reason to spend high dollars on the program but there is also no reason to skimp. We use Moormans/ADM, very high quality mineral that has been highly studied. |
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Paradise KS | How is alfalfa cheaper then protein tubs???
Your talking about pinching pennies, but feeding any sort of hay is not the cheapest way. Grazing covers, stalks, left over pasture is the cheapest way. If you have to start a tractor your loseing money.
We start with protein mineral in early fall when grass is drying up and use them through winter when on stalks. IF we put them on higher quality cover crops we may take them off of it. But really make sure its out when calving. Then we switch to high phos and magnesium in the spring when going to grass with IGR. |
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NE Oklahoma | I wouldn't be so quick to give up on the tubs,that's if your feeding hard baked tubs, you get the protein nutrition and the mineral is a plus to go along with it. |
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South Dakota | My thought on it is that I'd rather utilize what I have at my disposal rather than pay a feed bill.
I have the land, tractor, baler, etc...maybe it's a toss up after the dust settles....a trade off of expenses. I guess the hay bale has worked for me. |
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Ne Nebraska | Alfalfa $80/ton 15% protein
2000x15%=300lbs protein
$80/300lbs=$0.2667/lb of protein
Tubs $105 for 250lb 25% tub
250x25%=62.5lbs protein per tub
$105/62.5lbs= $1.68/lb of protein
Now Tell me that starting a tractor is more expensive than grazing with tubs when a protein supplement is needed. |
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SE Texas | +1 |
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South Dakota | Idk. Hard to put a price on growing your own protein. I guess I'm going to go with intrinsic value.
I'm sure your numbers are solid but just look at how that lick tub adds value to the feed company. I'll make some hay and add value to my operation. I guess I'm old school. |
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Crockett, Texas | I just started using a loose Vita-Ferm mineral. We have used several different loose minerals in the past, usually whatever was cheapest. We will track the Vitaferm usage/cost per head so we will have some data to look at.
We switched to this product in an effort to help our cows breed back quicker. The Brahman cows calving period has stretched out over the last several years, some due to drought, and I also think we could have done better with our mineral program.
Time will tell if this Vitaferm Concept-Aid does what they say it will do. Company claim is 1 month quicker breed back. We can track this easy enough as we know when the record each cow's calving date. What we cant track is the difference in weather, etc.
I agree with most others, feeding mineral pays....it doesn't cost. To me it's about ROI, if it makes me extra dollars, then it's the right thing to do for the bottom line. |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | A quick estimate of my cost for Mineralyx barrels and $5 salt blocks for the past year divided by my total number of head including cows calves and yearlings is right about where you are - $30-32/head. I do buy a year's worth of Mineral-lyx barrels at my local feed store's annual spring sale which saves quite a bit on the regular daily one or two price. The feed store holds them and I pickup a couple of the paid-for barrels at a time thru the year as I return the empty barrels. The system works well. Its really tough to come up with an accurate cost if you include calving problems avoided, health problems avoided, improved performance because of mineral... basically my approach to mineral and salt is that "if it isn't broke don't fix it". I had lots of problems with dry mineral when I tried it. I see no reason to go back. Comparing ingredient lists, the Mineral-lyx tubs are hard to beat, and they are 100% consumed, essentially zero waste.
Edited by Jim 12/3/2016 09:30
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Ne Nebraska | Well I'm surprised at that cost Jim. Guess I can't use a cost argument against it. Like you stated why try fixing what isn't broken. |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | My cattle just don't consume much mineral-lyx. My 250 lb barrels are often out for several months with around 25 head on them. They have a lot of other good forage to eat, aren't often hungry and don't need to fill up from the mineral-lyx barrels. I think that once cattle get their internal minerals in balance, they just don't seem to consume all that much, even though it's in a molasses base. If you try these consumption initially would probably be much higher. My cows have been on these so long they likely don't have any mineral deficiencies. This year they seem to go through 50 lb Stockman's salt blocks more often than the 250 lb Mineral tubs.
Edited by Jim 12/3/2016 11:27
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Crockett, Texas | We use this type mineral feeder, and so far they have held better than expected.
http://www.siouxsteel.com/index.php/product-detail/ground-mineral-f...
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Paradise KS | Tubs i buy don't cost that much.
Is that delivered price for hay? What about fuel costs for moving it around, depreciation on tractors. There is a lot more to it then that. |
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Ne Nebraska | What do your tubs cost, what do they weigh and what % protein are they?
Edited by cornncows 12/4/2016 19:24
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Who here relies only on lick tubs for mineral?
