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Steiger CM 360, Cat 3406 died Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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MiFarmer275 |
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So here is my problem, i have a cm 360 steiger with a 3406B model cat 360hp. It died, spun two rod and a main bearing. I don;t ant to have the block redone because the local machine shops are kind iffy around here anymore. So I found a 310 economy Cat out of a truck ran strong good oil pressure. SO my questions is can I use this motor just through it up in there and put my pump on it and my injectors and turbo and run it? Or should I just use the bottom end and reuse all the parts off my old engine, (head, turbo,cam pump. etc. ) This is an old tractor don;t really want to go through a 10,000 dollar rebuild if i don't have to. I might not have a choice. Also is there a way to check to see what the differences are in the two motors, the tag on the 310 motor is pretty well gone can't even get the whole serial number i just know it is a 92 . Any help would be greatly appreciated | |||
4WD |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | Question: Was your old 3406B using a JWAC (jacket water aftercooler)?
I assume the newer (1992) 3406C model, was pulled out of a semi-truck and thus it uses ATAAC (air-to-air Aftercooler).
If the 310 HP engine, was a semi-truck engine, then the serial number probably starts with "3ZJ" (Cat_3406 3.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Cat_3406 3.jpg (95KB - 1062 downloads) | ||
MiFarmer275 |
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I am not sure my 360hp motor is water after cooled. The 310hp has the intake removed I will have to find out if it was Air to air or not. they needed to reuse the intake on the motor they where putting back into the truck., they also kept the turbo I believe. I figured I could use my intake off the blown motor and the turbo also. Maybe I can not. They just want this 310hp motor out of the shop so i am getting if for cheap, So if i have to do more to it then just swamp i am still in the clear. Either way i need a good block and crank. They only removed it to put a bigger 450hp C model into the truck . I am attaching pictures of the two tags 310 and the 360. maybe someone else can see better then i can. Thanks (360hp tag.jpg) (310hp tag.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 360hp tag.jpg (104KB - 1063 downloads) 310hp tag.JPG (85KB - 991 downloads) | |||
4WD |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | The 310 HP, looks like 3ZJ21620, would be my guess. I see the old engine was 24.0 degree BTDC timing; but my guess is the 310 HP engine is probably 18.0 degree BTDC . Fuel injection pump won't swap, that for sure = probably different compression ratio and pistons and nozzles, etc.
Did the guys, that removed old 310 HP engine cover or tape the intake ports? (= real easy for parts, washers, nuts to fall inside the engine, if people aren't careful about this stuff {remember, those guys probably didn't care about "that" engine, during removal, so they might have been somewhat careless, about any debris falling into cylinder head intake ports})
How many miles, on old 310 HP engine? Time for engine bearing replacement ?
I would be worried about your old 360 HP turbo, because you had "metal in the oil" during that failure. (= metal debris might have gotten into turbo's bearings)
I'm just guessing, but I assume the easiest, cheapest option, would be to swap over JWAC components to 310 engine, buy reman turbo cartridge(center part of turbo) for a 360 HP engine, and install on that the 310 engine (may have to double check if exhaust manifold would be also be required during swap (whether a different part number or not); then finally just have someone turn the fuel screws, on the 310 HP engine's governor up to around 360 HP's fuel delivery amount. {this method, isn't "by the book", but you didn't want to throw a bunch of money into this unit, either} Edited by 4WD 1/6/2016 16:47 | ||
jimgen |
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central mich | If it is a good runner use it. It would only take a little bit of labor to roll a new set of bearings in or at least check a rod and main. We would tend to install new rear main seal and front seal. Even a Cat dealer would not charge much to knock in a new rear main seal, front main seal and roll a set of bearing in if you had the flywheel off, front pulley removed and pan on with four bolts. It could be just laying on a pallet and they could do it right on the pallet. We would do it all ourselves as we have the seal install tool which makes it easy. A 360hp should have the aftercooler on it. So use your old aftercooler , cross over pipes etc. Get all the necessary gaskets and orings. If your original injector pump works good I would use it. May have to change automatic timing advance assembly. Use your old exhaust manifold, turbo etc. All with new gaskets. You may find some exhaust studs broke. If so heat up the exh manifold joints so they can rotate when it is reinstalled. All is fairly simple to do. So really you are just using the long block and changing whatever externals as required. I would not worry at all about the cam, pistons, nor the timing too much. Turn the fuel where you want it. We have converted dozens of truck engines into industrial engines with no problems at all. | ||
MiFarmer275 |
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Yes I think you are correct on what i will have to do if i just want to throw this in there and make it run. They did tape off all the ports so they have been covered up. I hope I don;t have any worries there the rods and mains where done about 100,000 miles ago but they where hauling gravel trains with it so I will have to pull the pain and look at them. I did not think about the timing differences I will have to go to cat see what I can find out spec wise between the two motors. If I can get the serial number verified. Well my other option id to just use the block and crank and then do a complete major of the motor and build it back to the old motors specs. which i figured i would have between 8 to 10 grand in Cat parts. I might just have to bite the bullet and do it right instead of being cheap about it. Well That explains a little. they tractor is in good shape and needs nothing else except some new rubber on the duals. SO 10,000 is a lot cheaper then a newer 360 hp tractor and i guess i could make it 400hp if i am going to go through the whole motor. The blocks and cranks should not be any different i wouldn't think so I am at least getting that to start a new build. I am only giving $500 for the motor so I have a lot of room to rebuild it. To many options I guess, | |||
MiFarmer275 |
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Well that is something if I know it has been done before I wouldn't be scared of doing it. I am just not familiar with what the small differences would be when trying to swamp one motor to the next in these Hp ranges. So you think the valve train and the cam would be similar enough it wouldn't matter. I am going to have the injection pump gone through it was leaking some and the injectors done. we have a local shop that is reasonable. The flywheel and front pulley is already off it so that is not a bad idea either to put new main seals in. Well this would definitely save some money doing it that way. Thanks | |||
4WD |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | MiFarmer275 - 1/6/2016 17:44 Yes I think you are correct on what i will have to do if i just want to throw this in there and make it run. They did tape off all the ports so they have been covered up. I hope I don;t have any worries there the rods and mains where done about 100,000 miles ago but they where hauling gravel trains with it so I will have to pull the pain and look at them. I did not think about the timing differences I will have to go to cat see what I can find out spec wise between the two motors. If I can get the serial number verified. Well my other option id to just use the block and crank and then do a complete major of the motor and build it back to the old motors specs. which i figured i would have between 8 to 10 grand in Cat parts. I might just have to bite the bullet and do it right instead of being cheap about it. Well That explains a little. they tractor is in good shape and needs nothing else except some new rubber on the duals. SO 10,000 is a lot cheaper then a newer 360 hp tractor and i guess i could make it 400hp if i am going to go through the whole motor. The blocks and cranks should not be any different i wouldn't think so I am at least getting that to start a new build. I am only giving $500 for the motor so I have a lot of room to rebuild it. To many options I guess,
The crankshaft is different, on the 1992 "3ZJ" (310 HP) engine = better = it will have the "wider" rod journals.(thus connecting rods are different, also; and probably piston spray tubes, too) Note: The rod and main bearings "should be" good for 500,000 miles of regular "over-the-road" driving. (this is for the wider rod journal crankshafts, only) | ||
4WD |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | jimgen - 1/6/2016 17:10 If it is a good runner use it. It would only take a little bit of labor to roll a new set of bearings in or at least check a rod and main. We would tend to install new rear main seal and front seal. Even a Cat dealer would not charge much to knock in a new rear main seal, front main seal and roll a set of bearing in if you had the flywheel off, front pulley removed and pan on with four bolts. It could be just laying on a pallet and they could do it right on the pallet. We would do it all ourselves as we have the seal install tool which makes it easy. A 360hp should have the aftercooler on it. So use your old aftercooler , cross over pipes etc. Get all the necessary gaskets and orings. If your original injector pump works good I would use it. May have to change automatic timing advance assembly. Use your old exhaust manifold, turbo etc. All with new gaskets. You may find some exhaust studs broke. If so heat up the exh manifold joints so they can rotate when it is reinstalled. All is fairly simple to do. So really you are just using the long block and changing whatever externals as required. I would not worry at all about the cam, pistons, nor the timing too much. Turn the fuel where you want it. We have converted dozens of truck engines into industrial engines with no problems at all.
I disagree with BOTH these statements = there is too much difference in TIMING !!! You go mixing and mis-matching parts like that, and you will end up with piston failures that will look like this:
(Melted-Piston-1-300x300.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Melted-Piston-1-300x300.jpg (30KB - 1024 downloads) | ||
MiFarmer275 |
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Ok. If that is the case then they should be good. If i did a complete major on it on this 310 motor I could turn it into a 360 hp by getting all parts passed on my 360hp motor parts. Except getting the right rods and bearings to match the crank that in the 310 motor. I not sure if that makes sense to you or not. I have tried finding a Ag motor but have had very little luck. So this is my alternative I guess. I have seen pistons like that before so I know the timing is important. I Just didn't know there where so many different versions of this motor or specs i guess i should say. Thank you for the good info. Helps answer a lot of my questions. I will be heading to CAT next week to price a lot of this out. If there is any other ideas you might have I would love to hear them | |||
4WD |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | I thought of something else, because you mentioned 310 HP economy, I believe that governor might be set to an 310 HP @ 1800 rpm rating. Your old engine was a 2100 rpm rating, so if a person used the 310 engine and governor, you would probably need a 2100 rpm governor spring (inexpensive) inside that governor, too.
I'll tell you a story, and I'm friends with the CAT foreman in Omaha, and about 10-12 years ago, he mentioned that some truckers with older electronic engines(PEEC) set at 310 HP, were going to truck wrecking yards and buying used 400 HP ECMs (engine computers) and bolting them up to their 310 HP engines, and not changing anything else. He said the little 310 HP turbos lasted, quite a while (= actually spinning too fast), then when they did fail, the truckers would have it replaced with a 400 HP turbo part number, at that moment. I assume some of the other 310 HP parts probably weren't correct for 400 HP either, but according to him, they must be holding together with the amount of fuel going thru a 400 HP engine. I mention this because you might be getting "overly worried" about getting these engines set up, to CAT specs, that CAT had to use to pass emissions and get decent fuel economy numbers, BUT it doesn't mean some of these "matched components"(inside engine) can't handle some more HP, without engine damage.
For me, I might be more interested in, what is the most inexpensive way, to get that "3ZJ" engine up to 350, 400 or 425 HP rating at 2100 rpm. {Meaning, which one of those 3 "CAT Factory" choices, used the same pistons, engine camshaft, and fuel injection pump camshaft as your 310 HP economy engine uses and the SAME base Timing spec. (big ticket items;$$$)} After that, then you look at fuel nozzle part number differences and turbo part number differences (= these are cheaper and easier to change). I'm pretty sure you will automatically need to change, items such as Governor Spring(for 2100); timing advance spring (maybe), Torque spring and shims (inside governor, cheap); and reset fuel settings, for roughly 360 - 400 HP.
Honestly, the very cheapest route; is to just install a 2100 rpm governor spring, turn the two fuel screws out another 1.5 turns each, and set "high idle" (top engine rpms) to 2300 rpms, on the newer "3ZJ" 310 HP engine. (At least you know all the components, inside that engine, match for a 310 HP configuration) | ||
jimgen |
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central mich | As I recall prior to the E, the 3406 DI had 3 different block #s, 2 different crank #s 4 different piston #s and 3 different head #s. As usual with Cat most of the part number changes are not that significant. Sometimes the part number change is significant but usually not. As I recall not that many different cam part # either. I have seen several Cat d8n dozers with truck engines installed with no problems. Changed the externals including injection pump. The reason Cat has so many AR#s is the same engine is used in so many different machines so the AR describes the items hung on the engine for a particular application. How much better was the B over the A? Not much in my opinion. Still have a 3406A 325hp (now with aftercooler and 425hp) in a 1975 359 Pete that many people have asked to buy. The D8R uses the 3406E and the E engines are even more versatile as to usage from one application to another. If fact we just had a new C18 in shop. It was considered a generic engine. We set the ECM for generator usage @ 1800 rpm with no problem and no changes whatsoever to any hardware component. All Cat approved. Lots of options on the engine ECM and we have lots of options on the electronic controls connected the ECM | ||
MiFarmer275 |
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Well now that sounds like a winning idea. I think I will try that and see how it goes. I know they already turned the pump up when it was in the truck to get some more HP. SO mayeb I will just have to bolt it in Through my components on there, intake, turbo, and then see how she runs. If she seems weak I have lots of room to pull the engine down if I have to. If she runs out strong like they said it did in the truck I can just run it. I will see what else I can find out at CAT also. I don;t have much faith in the mechanics up there they just cleared house pretty much so they are all fesh out of school. Last time on has a question on a mechanical motor they looked at me like i was crazy. I appreciate all the info guys, Thanks | |||
jimgen |
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central mich | Friend just had a 3406E done at dealer. $24,000 out of frame with 5 year warranty. Well it ran about two months and cracked a liner and broke piston. And I forget the other damage. Engine pulled back out and another rebuild. They still jabbed him some money even with the warranty. Again this was a Cat dealer. You are correct about dealer costs. We do our own. Just did a N14 E. 2500 for block machine work, cam bearings installed and valves/head work, 2500 for parts, 1600 for aftermarket crank, 2000 for labor. So $24,000 number sounds crazy to us. Fine a good mechanic and avoid the dealers if possible. | ||
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