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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | Doing some farm cleaning (pickup load for iron recycling), today and have some old galvanized hog and cattle fence panels, that are about 20-25 years old and I'm just thinking about future uses for them. I thought one member, on NAT, mentioned that you can actually have "too much" reinforcement, also, in a concrete pour. This would just be for some flat work of 6" thick cement, probably.(just laying on bottom, they all aren't perfectly flat; you know) Thanks for any opinions or actual experiences.
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 hog panels.jpg (37KB - 247 downloads)
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Central ND | We have used panels like that in the past and they work well but I don't think they will do you much good if they are mostly laying in the bottom |
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Fowlerville, Mi | That's what we used in new shop floor, it's supported up on 2" " stanchions" and floor heat tube is fastened to hog panels. Was much cheaper than mesh that concrete guys use. |
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Bellevue, Iowa | I've used them. I wouldn't do it again. If the cement cracks (guaranteed it will) the panel will rust away, and there goes your support. The panel wires are too small. |
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SE IL | My dad and I used old livestock panels in his shop floor in 2003. We attached the infloor tubing to it and had it on stands. I thought it worked great and it was nice to find a use for a big pile of them. |
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southern MN | I thought galvanized was a bad idea in concrete. Perhaps much of the galvanized is worn off those.
Then the question is, how long do they last if they have been eaten up some, salty....
I don't know much about concrete work, other than I'm a little disappointed dad was too cheap to use any reenforcnent in the work he did. Overbuilt everything, but just couldn't spend a couple cents a foot for some rod..... Sigh.
Paul |
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Floyd County, Iowa | Just my opinion, but if you want reinforcement, use rebar. Panels aren't much stronger than remesh used to be.
Like I said, just my opinion. |
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northeast iowa | Waste of time and material. Send the panels to scrap yard, and use the money to buy rebar. Any cement that i have torn up that has used old wire/panels, etc. in it, the concrete was weakened, cracked, no good! You only want to pour concrete once. Don't skimp on the reinforcement. |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | oldbones - 11/10/2015 20:57 Just my opinion, but if you want reinforcement, use rebar. Panels aren't much stronger than remesh used to be. Like I said, just my opinion. It takes quite some effort, on a 3 foot long handles, of our bolt cutters, to snip these panels. I believe they are quite a bit stronger than the old 6" x 6" wire mesh. I could always add some rebar, on stands, too. {Note: I'm just thinking ahead, don't have any immediate projects, lined up currently, but have some in my head} |
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West Texas | Panel will not do any good on the ground needs to be towards the top of the slab. By the pic it looks like small wire there is some wire mesh that is just like rebar that uses larger bars. Galvanized reinf is quite common in buildings that have embedded plates for connections.
You could double up your panels to increase the amount of reinforcement in the cross section of the slab. Offset the panel squares to let concrete flow thru. |
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| For a 6" slab they will work fine. They need to be in tje bottom 1/3 of the slab for good reinforcement. I have poured hundreds of thousands of square feet with 8 and 6 gauge panels, the same as hog panels, just bigger. If they are really rusty thpugh, get rid of them. If just surface rust they will be fine.
Mesh is for reimforcement, not structural bridging strength. Make sure you have a good base and good panels and they will work well.
There is no.such thing as too much reinforcement unless it takes up roo. For concrete. You'd be amazed some of the structural stuff I have poured and the rear used.
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| Fingers77 - 11/10/2015 21:08
There is no.such thing as too much reinforcement unless it takes up roo. For concrete. You'd be amazed some of the structural stuff I have poured and the rear used.
If you have too much reinforcement in a slab that's not thick enough, it WILL crack between the control joints. Seen it happen more than once. Very possible to get too much reinforcement. As far as wire mesh goes, no way to keep it off the bottom so it's useless. If someone doubts that, go tear up any slab that has wire in it and tell me where it is when you flip it over. |
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| Poured by people that don't know how to pour. |
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Floyd County, Iowa | I guess what I was getting at, is that the panels are only 1/4" (if they're older panels: newer panels are thinner). 1/4" (or less) reinforcement is not much reinforcement. I've had quite a bit of construction experience over the years, and my opinion is based on that experience.
Use them if you like, your choice.
You asked for opinions, and I gave mine.
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| So ACI and the board members who write the regulations an are some of the best finishers in the world don't know how to pour, huh? They'll tell you as well that unless you chair it every two ft sq or never walk or drive on it after mud is down, it won't do a bit of good. Keep putting it in tho....makes people feel great about their new floor. |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | Thanks for your comments and experiences. I'm listen. Just as a farmer, looking at amount of metal and the close spacing (grid, assume 4" x 6" on upper level) of those hog panels and combo cattle panels, it sure "seems" to be plenty of reinforcement. (pretty unscientific, I know) |
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The rapidly vanishing farmland of Boone Co. Ind. | The little tab on the top of a concrete come along is for pulling the wire up. Fingers77, you're right. |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | Moe Syslak - 11/10/2015 22:14 The little tab on the top of a concrete come along is for pulling the wire up. Fingers77, you're right. Had to look it up = never heard it called that
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concrete come along.jpg (10KB - 236 downloads)
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| Are you an ACI certified flatwork tech?
If it wasn't up to ACI's specs, then no self respecting engineer would allow plans with his stamp to have wire mesh allowed, and every day thousands of square feet of it go into concrete.
IT MUST BE INSTALLED CORRECTLY, but mesh is a perfectly acceptable form of reinforcement.
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Galena IL | I bought new wire panels and put them my shop floor with in floor heat, 8 yrs. old, no cracks. Has D6R ,excavator,semi's on it on it often .... Dennis |
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| Fingers77 - 11/10/2015 22:35
Are you an ACI certified flatwork tech?
Yes I am......basic and Commercial/Industrial.
And yes, in theory, wire could be considered an acceptable method of reinforcing, but only in a perfect scenario. What they are meaning when they say that is that unless you are pouring in a situation where no one will be in the concrete, you have people walking thru the mud or a laser screed driving thru it, it gets pushed to the bottom. I have a good friend who is on the board and he's showed me the tests they've done with it.
The ideal floor design for an average building is a 6" 4000psi floor on a super hard packed base with a grid of #3 bar 18" o.c. The only thing you are trying to do with reinforcement in a 4-6" floor is hold your control joints together. Look at any Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, a large distribution center.....almost every one of them will have dowel baskets along the control joint lines and nothing else. |
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Kingston,Mi | Concrete should be reinforced with materials designed to reinforce concrete; re-bar or specifically designed and constructed re-rod panels on several different styles of chairs or the correct blocks. Feedlot panels would be perfectly okay once they have been first to the scrap yard, then to a short steel factory that manufactures re-rod then finally returned to a concrete supply warehouse.
The hook on the back of a concrete come-a-long is to impress sidewalk supervisors, anyone who STILL believes that a 250 pound man standing 2 feet away from the location that he/she hooks into the welded "reinforcing" wire , then lifts it into the critical location within the slab and that it miraculously remains where it was carefully placed must believe in the Easter Bunny and that the news media is neutral.
Effective use of reinforcing steel in concrete is a mathematical relationship between the amount of steel per square inch of the finished section. Reinforcing steel used in slab work is functioning as temperature and shrinkage steel, ii is designed to prevent cracks from spreading and/or displacing vertically due to changes in temperature and shrinkage during curing. The deformations on re-rod or re-bar are there by design to provide grip in the concrete.
A better use of those surplus wire panels is very stout and over built tomato cages or as tree guards if you are not going to haul them to the recycler. It also appears that some concrete turns out okay even after determined misapplication of otherwise useful products.
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| BOGTROTTER - 11/11/2015 06:07
Concrete should be reinforced with materials designed to reinforce concrete; re-bar or specifically designed and constructed re-rod panels on several different styles of chairs or the correct blocks. Feedlot panels would be perfectly okay once they have been first to the scrap yard, then to a short steel factory that manufactures re-rod then finally returned to a concrete supply warehouse.
The hook on the back of a concrete come-a-long is to impress sidewalk supervisors, anyone who STILL believes that a 250 pound man standing 2 feet away from the location that he/she hooks into the welded "reinforcing" wire , then lifts it into the critical location within the slab and that it miraculously remains where it was carefully placed must believe in the Easter Bunny and that the news media is neutral.
Effective use of reinforcing steel in concrete is a mathematical relationship between the amount of steel per square inch of the finished section. Reinforcing steel used in slab work is functioning as temperature and shrinkage steel, ii is designed to prevent cracks from spreading and/or displacing vertically due to changes in temperature and shrinkage during curing. The deformations on re-rod or re-bar are there by design to provide grip in the concrete.
A better use of those surplus wire panels is very stout and over built tomato cages or as tree guards if you are not going to haul them to the recycler. It also appears that some concrete turns out okay even after determined misapplication of otherwise useful products.
Spot on...... |
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| And by pontificating trying to prove that you are smarter than the rest of us, you have lost sight of the OPs question.
Hog panels if installed correctly will be fine for a farmer slab. Sure it might not last as long as a commercial slab, but it can and will work. I'm sure he won't be landing a 747 on it or trying to sell everything at an 11% discount.
See it for what his needs might be.
Besides, it is MY opinion, and NO ONE can ever take it from me. You have yours, I have mine.. Get over it.
Edited by Fingers77 11/11/2015 06:34
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| Fingers77 - 11/11/2015 06:32
And by pontificating trying to prove that you are smarter than the rest of us, you have lost sight of the OPs question.
Hog panels if installed correctly will be fine for a farmer slab. Sure it might not last as long as a commercial slab, but it can and will work. I'm sure he won't be landing a 747 on it or trying to sell everything at an 11% discount.
See it for what his needs might be.
Besides, it is MY opinion, and NO ONE can ever take it from me. You have yours, I have mine.. Get over it.
No worries at all.....you're entitled to whatever you like! And you're right....so many different ideas can and will "work"......and for a specific use, may serve the purpose just fine. But concrete isnt something that gets traded in every couple years, and with constantly evolving engineering and technology, there are far better ways to design and install a floor than in the days when grampa did it. |
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KY | Not all mine, but have been involved with 6 6" pads (all for 8,000 bushel bins or smaller) and a dryer pad... we used hog panels in each one of them up on 2" chairs and have had zero problems with any of them, some up to 10 years old now. Not a lot of weight in any one spot, but I would consider panel in something a little larger. No, it's probably not "industry standard" but how many of us have everything 100% "industry standard"? Some folks probably have a larger budget than I work with on projects though. For what it's worth, tearing down a bin and moving it first of the year that was set in '77, 6,000 bushel 21 footer, set on a poured 5" slab with zero reinforcment. Been almost 40 years and just recently started giving trouble. A little reinforcement would have gone a long way obviously. |
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New Brunswick, Canada | Surprisingly even old coils of barbed wire can be used as ring style reinforcement, almost anything steel will work to some degree if you can keep it off the bottom. We used welded wire mesh in our shop to tie the heat tubing to, it was laid over top of a 4 x 4 ft x 1/2" rebar grid on chairs just to make it easier to hold the mesh up. Many of the folks that work concrete in the residential side of things have no respect for the steel placement and you have to watch them like a hawk.
Will hog panels work? Sure, figure out the cross section of the steel in them, figure out how far apart the control joints are gonna be and decide a maximum acceptable crack size so you can figure out how much overlap you need to get the right square inches of steel in the cross section. If you have a big slab it needs lots more steel that you would think. Careful about using the largest acceptable crack size too, as it gets wider the cracks can displace and give rough floors. |
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just a tish NE of central ND | 4WD - 11/10/2015 21:18
Moe Syslak - 11/10/2015 22:14 The little tab on the top of a concrete come along is for pulling the wire up. Fingers77, you're right. Had to look it up = never heard it called that
The little concrete that I have seen done around here, light use slabs have mesh used and the contractor pulled the wire up with a hook as they go. That mesh they use is light gauge compared to hog panels.
Edited by School Of Hard Knock 11/12/2015 08:54
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Concrete question: use old hog panels as reinforcement?
