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Obsolete![]() |
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oregon | Are they the same thing or is there a mechanical or operational difference between the two? | ||
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bleedred![]() |
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East Central Ia | There are significant differences in any "step less" transmission. IVT or CVT is really just a brand or marketing name. Fendt invented the concept in the 60's I believe and had to wait until the technology was available to manufacture the components needed to make it work. I don't know a lot about them but you can google each manufacturers design for some pretty neat videos on how they work. The Fendt CVT is the only one with zero clutch packs to my knowledge. They are also the most proven and durable design. | ||
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JohnW![]() |
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NW Washington | They are all basically the same with a planetary gearset controlled by a hydraulic pump/motor acting on the ring gear of the planetary gearset. The differences is how this is done and if it is used in combination with a range transmission with two or more gear ranges. They use a computer to control the output of the trans mission. Variations on a theme a musician might say. | ||
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kpaul![]() |
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north central Iowa, Hampton | The concept is similar on all of them. A hydrostatic pump pumps more or less oil to vary the groundspeed. Fendt (CVT) designed their own pump and it has a larger range of oil flow. Because of that, you can go from zero to full speed with just the pump. Everyone else including Deere's IVT uses at least a couple ranges-- zero mph is low range, the hydro pump swings and you build speed. At around 7 mph, the trans. shifts ranges automatically and the pump swings again. It's all done by the tranny computers, but you may feel a little shift taking place, which you won't with the Fendt / AGCO. This video will show you the parts on a Fendt. For anything else, add in a couple clutch packs and ranges... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgtIKMAjvFI | ||
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GM Guy![]() |
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NW KS/ SC ID | The Fendt CVT is far simpler than the IVT Deere, IDK anything about the CNH CVT, but IIRC Fendt has a patent on their wider swing motor, so I would imagine the CNH version also has to have a shifting range portion similar to the Deere, but IDK for sure. The thing I like most about the Fendt is that the oil compartments are completely seperate, so no contaminated implements share oil with the trans. The deere has one fill hole, which worries me, but is probably more flunkie driver friendly though. I know if I was to own one off warranty it would be made by the company with the weird green for a paint scheme. :) | ||
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jief![]() |
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French / German Border | The fendt is simplier but is not the best in efficiency. The fendt is full hydrostatic when you start to move and mechanical at the end of the range. Other cvt have more range so are always closer tomechanical efficiency. Fendt are efficient while they have a small engine. | ||
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Gerard![]() |
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Woodham, Ontario | They all work on the same principle. As mentioned before the Fendt CVT has no clutchpacks so it's simpler, but may not always be the most efficient. The CNH and JD CVT/IVT have multiple ranges depending on the model. The IVT in a 7R works different than the IVT in the 8R. Someone from Deere told me the IVT in the 8000 series is actually the least efficient from the Deere IVTs... CNH says they have the most efficient CVT by putting in the most mechanical ranges. | ||
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tedbear![]() |
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Near Intersection of I-35 & I-90 Southern Mn. | Beauty it is said is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the same is true for tractor transmission efficiency. It depends on what is viewed as the measure of efficiency. If you are talking about the pure transmission of power, the old Deere 2 cylinder setup where the drive train made few "corners" might rank right up there. If your definition of efficiency includes the ability to easily match/change ground speeds for varying conditions with a variety of equipment then the definition changes. We have one Deere tractor with IVT (7830) and the combine but the other tractors are more mechanical. Each has their place. The IVT is certainly handy in a variety of situations but for "straight" pulling I suspect the more mechanical ones may be more efficient in that sense. | ||
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crowbar![]() |
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Hazelton, Kansas | Obsolete, They aren't all the same internally. The best explanation I've seen is the Karl Renius lecture. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/4074793/continuously-variable... Regards. MDS | ||
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Tazzerblue![]() |
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SW MN | The CVT only uses the amount of Power {fuel} necessary to do the job. The computer can manage this for you. Where as a full Power shift can not. and just burns X amount of fuel. Only if your using full power 95% of the time will a PS come close to the efficiency of a CVT. Those Smart German's know there stuff. | ||
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WildBuckwheat![]() |
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Middlesex County, Ontario | A powershift does not just burn X amount of fuel. If 95% load is 15 gallons per hour it won't use that much in the 70% load areas of the field. If it tried to pump that much fuel into the engine with 75% behind it the engine would rev to 6000 and explode. Thats why tractors have governors instead of throttles. Edited by WildBuckwheat 6/28/2014 10:44 | ||
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The Pretender![]() |
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The Internet | WildBuckwheat - 6/28/2014 16:43 A powershift does not just burn X amount of fuel. If 95% load is 15 gallons per hour it won't use that much in the 70% load areas of the field. If it tried to pump that much fuel into the engine with 75% behind it the engine would rev to 6000 and explode. Thats why tractors have governors instead of throttles.
In the lighter areas of the field the powershift engined tractors engine will still be spinning at the same rpm. As long as the CVT tractor isn't doing PTO work the engine will drop back and the transmission will push on to maintain forward speed at lower engine revs. Most of the time the powershift tractor will be in a gear a little higher or a little lower than ideal. The CVT is always going at the right speed, any parasitic losses will be made up for because of this. | ||
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WildBuckwheat![]() |
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Middlesex County, Ontario | I completely agree. But a powershift sitting still at 1800 rpm and a powershift pulling at max load at 1800 don't burn the same amount of fuel. That's all I'm saying. I've run quite a few Fendts and I see the light. We usually set the cruise faster than we can actually go and just use all the horses all the time. I think the fuel savings during cultivating or simple tasks like that are more from the computer than from the transmission. No doubt the tranny saves fuel, but I think the computer system choosing engine RPM saves more fuel than the tranny. Farmer John (and me included) do not set the gears/RPM to the ideal setting in power shift tractors. I know Deere and others have the auto button to do this, but its so rough and jerky and it just doesn't work well so noone uses it. If we had a computer in a powershift (that actually works) to pick the ideal gear and RPM for us, I think the fuel savings would not nearly be as much compared to IVT as it is now. And really, why don't powershift tractors have this feature? If my powershift tractor took the last 20 minutes of pulling data (and was smart enough to ignore headland turns) and just gave me a suggestion of which gear and RPM to run that would just be fantastic. As it sits now noone really shifts or changes the throttle much anyway. Just give me a screen saying "based on the last 20 minutes of data, you should just leave it in 11 at 1450 rpm." Sure would save a lot of fuel when dad (or an amigo) runs the tractor at 2000 RPM all day long instead of throttling back to 1200. | ||
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steve1616![]() |
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North East Kansas | Marketing changes our views, but doesn't make it correct. CVT's are neat and have some advantages, but don't save you fuel over a powershift. There is no magic inside. Most people miss the point on engines to save fuel. Lower rpm's is not always better. You need to look at the fuel consumption curves of the engine to know what rpm is best at what power percentage. If you don't feel like guessing, Case IH's APM mode is not jerky, and does help although I never use it because I know where the rpm needs to be to save fuel and I know better than the computer what is better on the engine. I always stay with higher rpms if fuel consumption is the same. The computer will stay with lower rpms on both the cvt's and powershifts. Lower rpm's are harder on the engine because of higher cylinder pressures to pull the same load. I have tracked fuel consumption on the same exact implement in the same field with a massey 8670 CVT and a Case ih Magnum 290. The 290 was just a little better on fuel consumption, and it is a powershift. Don't take my word for it. Go to Nebraska tractor tests and look at fuel consumption. The CVT's are almost never better at conserving fuel. Marketing always disgusts me in the first place. The new tier 4 engines were supposed to save all this fuel, yet the tier 3 (magnum 275, 9.0L) on our farm was better at saving fuel, and it is almost disgusting how much fuel our old mx220 saves over any of them pulling the same exact planter. | ||
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steve1616![]() |
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North East Kansas | Tedbear, I think your post is spot on. Edited by steve1616 6/28/2014 13:06 | ||
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jief![]() |
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French / German Border | Many problem on fendt engine here. Small engine and low rpm ! " Cylinder ovalisation" Fendt have an awesome marketing team. | ||
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johnny skeptical![]() |
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n.c.iowa | wildbuckwheat, I think you got the beginnings of a another monitor in the cab. lets call it the rpm, gear ratio, and fuel consumption, optimization monitor. | ||
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fox128![]() |
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West Central IA | And running the hydraulic pump and motor in the cvt ivts is what kills their potential efficient IMO. Hydraulic pumps and motors are not nearly as efficient as gears. Theirs a reason tractors aren't hydrostatic | ||
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Maxzillian![]() |
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The Fendt is actually most efficient in the middle of the range. Fendt has two pumps/motors that work together to vary the speed of the ring gear. At the lower end of the range, the ring gear is spining to "underdrive" the plantary set, near the middle of the range the ring gear is stalled, and at the top it is rotating the opposite direction it was before to "overdrive" the set. When the ring gear is stalled is when the transmission is operating at 100% mechanical. | |||
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fox128![]() |
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West Central IA | Right, and the other brands that have multiple ranges have more speeds where the pump is stalled and basically mechanical transfer of power instead of hydraulic. I do not know at what speeds this occurs. I would hope one of the ranges is in typical field work speeds. Edited by fox128 6/29/2014 20:57 | ||
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durallymax![]() |
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Wi | Same concept, different execution between brands. As many said, Fendt pioneered the concept in tractors. They worked on it for a lot of years but couldn't find good enough parts and funding was an issue. It wasn't until 96 that they had tractors rolling off the line with it. Agco officially purchased Fendt shortly after. By the time they had it finished the brain child of it (H. Marschall) had passed on so it is partially named after him. The "ML-260" is the transmission you find in the larger 900 series. Fendt built two more smaller CVT's for smaller tractors and is rumored to be building an ML-400 currently. Fendt did not "invent" the concept of a Power Split CVT, no one company did but many drew from years of prior research to create their own models. It's no different than anything else that has been incorporated into tractors. To say Fendt is the sole inventor of a hydrostatic PSD CVT is not true, but they were the first ones to successfully have a working model that went into production and met the criteria needed for it to be successful. Their hydrostatic components are their claim to fame. Nothing existed that would meet their criteria so they started making their own and later on partnered with Sauer to bring them to life. They are the reason the Vario can go from 0-60kph with no shifting and do it with decent efficiency and power transmission. | ||
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Chris 924![]() |
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Nova Scotia | Join us tomorrow when durally will be giving a class on who invented the wheel, should be a good one............ :) How you feeling bud? Hope it's going well! | ||
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