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CVT and IVT the same?
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Obsolete
Posted 6/27/2014 21:34 (#3940689)
Subject: CVT and IVT the same?


oregon


Are they the same thing or is there a mechanical or operational difference between the two?
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bleedred
Posted 6/27/2014 21:44 (#3940705 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?



East Central Ia
There are significant differences in any "step less" transmission. IVT or CVT is really just a brand or marketing name.

Fendt invented the concept in the 60's I believe and had to wait until the technology was available to manufacture the components needed to make it work.

I don't know a lot about them but you can google each manufacturers design for some pretty neat videos on how they work.

The Fendt CVT is the only one with zero clutch packs to my knowledge. They are also the most proven and durable design.
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JohnW
Posted 6/27/2014 22:42 (#3940787 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


NW Washington
They are all basically the same with a planetary gearset controlled by a hydraulic pump/motor acting on the ring gear of the planetary gearset. The differences is how this is done and if it is used in combination with a range transmission with two or more gear ranges. They use a computer to control the output of the trans mission.

Variations on a theme a musician might say.


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kpaul
Posted 6/27/2014 23:02 (#3940822 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?



north central Iowa, Hampton
The concept is similar on all of them. A hydrostatic pump pumps more or less oil to vary the groundspeed. Fendt (CVT) designed their own pump and it has a larger range of oil flow. Because of that, you can go from zero to full speed with just the pump. Everyone else including Deere's IVT uses at least a couple ranges-- zero mph is low range, the hydro pump swings and you build speed. At around 7 mph, the trans. shifts ranges automatically and the pump swings again.

It's all done by the tranny computers, but you may feel a little shift taking place, which you won't with the Fendt / AGCO.

This video will show you the parts on a Fendt. For anything else, add in a couple clutch packs and ranges... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgtIKMAjvFI
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GM Guy
Posted 6/28/2014 02:15 (#3940909 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


NW KS/ SC ID
The Fendt CVT is far simpler than the IVT Deere, IDK anything about the CNH CVT, but IIRC Fendt has a patent on their wider swing motor, so I would imagine the CNH version also has to have a shifting range portion similar to the Deere, but IDK for sure.

The thing I like most about the Fendt is that the oil compartments are completely seperate, so no contaminated implements share oil with the trans. The deere has one fill hole, which worries me, but is probably more flunkie driver friendly though.

I know if I was to own one off warranty it would be made by the company with the weird green for a paint scheme. :)
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jief
Posted 6/28/2014 03:02 (#3940917 - in reply to #3940909)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


French / German Border
The fendt is simplier but is not the best in efficiency.
The fendt is full hydrostatic when you start to move and mechanical at the end of the range.
Other cvt have more range so are always closer tomechanical efficiency.

Fendt are efficient while they have a small engine.

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Gerard
Posted 6/28/2014 04:16 (#3940918 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?



Woodham, Ontario
They all work on the same principle. As mentioned before the Fendt CVT has no clutchpacks so it's simpler, but may not always be the most efficient. The CNH and JD CVT/IVT have multiple ranges depending on the model. The IVT in a 7R works different than the IVT in the 8R. Someone from Deere told me the IVT in the 8000 series is actually the least efficient from the Deere IVTs... CNH says they have the most efficient CVT by putting in the most mechanical ranges.
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tedbear
Posted 6/28/2014 06:57 (#3941002 - in reply to #3940918)
Subject: Efficiency - "In the eye of the beholder"


Near Intersection of I-35 & I-90 Southern Mn.
Beauty it is said is in the eye of the beholder. I believe the same is true for tractor transmission efficiency.

It depends on what is viewed as the measure of efficiency. If you are talking about the pure transmission of power, the old Deere 2 cylinder setup where the drive train made few "corners" might rank right up there.

If your definition of efficiency includes the ability to easily match/change ground speeds for varying conditions with a variety of equipment then the definition changes.

We have one Deere tractor with IVT (7830) and the combine but the other tractors are more mechanical. Each has their place. The IVT is certainly handy in a variety of situations but for "straight" pulling I suspect the more mechanical ones may be more efficient in that sense.
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crowbar
Posted 6/28/2014 07:56 (#3941075 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


Hazelton, Kansas
Obsolete,

They aren't all the same internally. The best explanation I've seen is the Karl Renius lecture.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/4074793/continuously-variable...

Regards.

MDS

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Tazzerblue
Posted 6/28/2014 10:38 (#3941286 - in reply to #3941002)
Subject: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT


SW MN
The CVT only uses the amount of Power {fuel} necessary to do the job. The computer can manage this for you. Where as a full Power shift can not. and just burns X amount of fuel. Only if your using full power 95% of the time will a PS come close to the efficiency of a CVT. Those Smart German's know there stuff.
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WildBuckwheat
Posted 6/28/2014 10:43 (#3941293 - in reply to #3941286)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT


Middlesex County, Ontario
A powershift does not just burn X amount of fuel. If 95% load is 15 gallons per hour it won't use that much in the 70% load areas of the field. If it tried to pump that much fuel into the engine with 75% behind it the engine would rev to 6000 and explode. Thats why tractors have governors instead of throttles.

Edited by WildBuckwheat 6/28/2014 10:44
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The Pretender
Posted 6/28/2014 11:34 (#3941367 - in reply to #3941293)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT


The Internet

WildBuckwheat - 6/28/2014 16:43 A powershift does not just burn X amount of fuel. If 95% load is 15 gallons per hour it won't use that much in the 70% load areas of the field. If it tried to pump that much fuel into the engine with 75% behind it the engine would rev to 6000 and explode. Thats why tractors have governors instead of throttles.

 

In the lighter areas of the field the powershift engined tractors engine will still be spinning at the same rpm. As long as the CVT tractor isn't doing PTO work the engine will drop back and the transmission will push on to maintain forward speed at lower engine revs.

Most of the time the powershift tractor will be in a gear a little higher or a little lower than ideal. The CVT is always going at the right speed, any parasitic losses will be made up for because of this.

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WildBuckwheat
Posted 6/28/2014 12:33 (#3941427 - in reply to #3941367)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT


Middlesex County, Ontario
I completely agree. But a powershift sitting still at 1800 rpm and a powershift pulling at max load at 1800 don't burn the same amount of fuel. That's all I'm saying.


I've run quite a few Fendts and I see the light. We usually set the cruise faster than we can actually go and just use all the horses all the time.


I think the fuel savings during cultivating or simple tasks like that are more from the computer than from the transmission. No doubt the tranny saves fuel, but I think the computer system choosing engine RPM saves more fuel than the tranny. Farmer John (and me included) do not set the gears/RPM to the ideal setting in power shift tractors. I know Deere and others have the auto button to do this, but its so rough and jerky and it just doesn't work well so noone uses it. If we had a computer in a powershift (that actually works) to pick the ideal gear and RPM for us, I think the fuel savings would not nearly be as much compared to IVT as it is now.



And really, why don't powershift tractors have this feature?

If my powershift tractor took the last 20 minutes of pulling data (and was smart enough to ignore headland turns) and just gave me a suggestion of which gear and RPM to run that would just be fantastic. As it sits now noone really shifts or changes the throttle much anyway. Just give me a screen saying "based on the last 20 minutes of data, you should just leave it in 11 at 1450 rpm." Sure would save a lot of fuel when dad (or an amigo) runs the tractor at 2000 RPM all day long instead of throttling back to 1200.

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steve1616
Posted 6/28/2014 13:04 (#3941456 - in reply to #3941427)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT


North East Kansas
Marketing changes our views, but doesn't make it correct. CVT's are neat and have some advantages, but don't save you fuel over a powershift. There is no magic inside. Most people miss the point on engines to save fuel. Lower rpm's is not always better. You need to look at the fuel consumption curves of the engine to know what rpm is best at what power percentage. If you don't feel like guessing, Case IH's APM mode is not jerky, and does help although I never use it because I know where the rpm needs to be to save fuel and I know better than the computer what is better on the engine. I always stay with higher rpms if fuel consumption is the same. The computer will stay with lower rpms on both the cvt's and powershifts. Lower rpm's are harder on the engine because of higher cylinder pressures to pull the same load.

I have tracked fuel consumption on the same exact implement in the same field with a massey 8670 CVT and a Case ih Magnum 290. The 290 was just a little better on fuel consumption, and it is a powershift. Don't take my word for it. Go to Nebraska tractor tests and look at fuel consumption. The CVT's are almost never better at conserving fuel.

Marketing always disgusts me in the first place. The new tier 4 engines were supposed to save all this fuel, yet the tier 3 (magnum 275, 9.0L) on our farm was better at saving fuel, and it is almost disgusting how much fuel our old mx220 saves over any of them pulling the same exact planter.
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steve1616
Posted 6/28/2014 13:06 (#3941459 - in reply to #3941002)
Subject: RE: Efficiency - "In the eye of the beholder"


North East Kansas
Tedbear, I think your post is spot on.

Edited by steve1616 6/28/2014 13:06
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jief
Posted 6/28/2014 14:19 (#3941531 - in reply to #3941456)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT


French / German Border
Many problem on fendt engine here.
Small engine and low rpm ! " Cylinder ovalisation"

Fendt have an awesome marketing team.
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johnny skeptical
Posted 6/28/2014 16:31 (#3941622 - in reply to #3941427)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT



n.c.iowa

wildbuckwheat, I think you got the beginnings of a another monitor in the cab.    lets call it the rpm, gear ratio, and fuel consumption, optimization monitor.   

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fox128
Posted 6/28/2014 19:00 (#3941794 - in reply to #3941456)
Subject: RE: Your missing the Efficiency of a CVT



West Central IA
And running the hydraulic pump and motor in the cvt ivts is what kills their potential efficient IMO. Hydraulic pumps and motors are not nearly as efficient as gears. Theirs a reason tractors aren't hydrostatic
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Maxzillian
Posted 6/29/2014 11:08 (#3942686 - in reply to #3940917)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


The Fendt is actually most efficient in the middle of the range. Fendt has two pumps/motors that work together to vary the speed of the ring gear. At the lower end of the range, the ring gear is spining to "underdrive" the plantary set, near the middle of the range the ring gear is stalled, and at the top it is rotating the opposite direction it was before to "overdrive" the set. When the ring gear is stalled is when the transmission is operating at 100% mechanical.
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fox128
Posted 6/29/2014 20:57 (#3943570 - in reply to #3942686)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?



West Central IA
Right, and the other brands that have multiple ranges have more speeds where the pump is stalled and basically mechanical transfer of power instead of hydraulic. I do not know at what speeds this occurs. I would hope one of the ranges is in typical field work speeds.

Edited by fox128 6/29/2014 20:57
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durallymax
Posted 6/30/2014 11:35 (#3944401 - in reply to #3940689)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


Wi

Same concept, different execution between brands.  As many said, Fendt pioneered the concept in tractors. They worked on it for a lot of years but couldn't find good enough parts and funding was an issue. It wasn't until 96 that they had tractors rolling off the line with it. Agco officially purchased Fendt shortly after.  By the time they had it finished the brain child of it (H. Marschall) had passed on so it is partially named after him. The "ML-260" is the transmission you find in the larger 900 series. Fendt built two more smaller CVT's for smaller tractors and is rumored to be building an ML-400 currently.  Fendt did not "invent" the concept of a Power Split CVT, no one company did but many drew from years of prior research to create their own models. It's no different than anything else that has been incorporated into tractors.  To say Fendt is the sole inventor of a hydrostatic PSD CVT is not true, but they were the first ones to successfully have a working model that went into production and met the criteria needed for it to be successful.  Their hydrostatic components are their claim to fame. Nothing existed that would meet their criteria so they started making their own and later on partnered with Sauer to bring them to life.  They are the reason the Vario can go from 0-60kph with no shifting and do it with decent efficiency and power transmission.

All CVT's in tractors are Hydrostatic Power Split CVT's. In the case of the Fendt the engine drives the planet carrier, the ring gear is connected to the hydro pump and the sun gear is connected to the collector shaft that drives the output.  The hydro pump is a variable displacement bent axis pump with a swing angle of 45* in one direction and 30* the other. The pump feeds two hydromotors(one on smaller models) that have a 45* swing as well. These drive the output gear also. The system relief is set between 7,000-8,000psi. In true nuetral the range box is uncoupled, in gear but sitting still the tractor is held by the hydromotors which are at full 45* swing while the pump sits at 0.  As you accelerate the pump starts to swing and send fluid to the motors, this turns the output and you start to move.  As the pump reaches full swing the motors will start to swing back to restrict flow through the motor, this puts resistance on the ring gear and makes more power start to take the path of the sun gear instead.  This continues until the motors reach 0* in which the ring gear will be stopped and the power is 100% mechanically transmitted to the output.  For reverse they simply swing the pump the opposite direction which makes for a very seamless and smooth movement but the tradeoff is poor efficiency in reverse.   If you ever see a Vario you will notice how small it is, that is because there are no shock loads from shifting or direction changes.  Another downside to this transmission is noise, Fendt mounted it to help reduce a lot of it but you can still hear some of the whine. THe whine is evident in Deere and CNH tractors as well.

Efficiency was mentioned as being "poor" with CVT's due to the hydro drive portion.  Hydros are not always efficient, but CVT's themselves take a different approach to gain efficiency. The measurements confirmed by DLG of the total system efficiency with a Fendt were between 80-85% from 3-30kph in low range and similar for high range from 4-40kph. That is the efficiency from engine to axle. I need to find some numbers on what a powershift actually runs.

The range box on the Fendt is simply synchronized with no clutches. This is why its best to just shift it when you get to the field. It can shift on the fly but needs minimal loads on it to do so.  Failures in the range box from improper shifting have been the cause of many CVT failures. The range simply increases your efficiency when at lower speed and higher loads. It is not required to achieve full speed.

Claas, Steyr and ZF were major players in the CVT game early on as well. Deere initially used ZF and still does today in some models, but also designed their own Autopowr later on. CNH bought Steyr and now use their design in their tractors as well. Claas actually abandoned theirs for awhile and used ZF CVT's in their tractors but have since put more effort into their own CVT and have released it in some of their models.  Most brands operate similar to the Fendt just with a more limited range in the actual power split unit, thus needing additional ranges to cover the entire speed range.  If you are operating near the more mechanical end of the PSD in the range you are in they can be very efficient. The downside is they are large and not as smooth.

The Fendt Vario is truely a mechanically controlled transmission actually. This allows limp home providing the engine will run. All the computer does is move the mechanical bar to change the position of the motors/pump.  When something fails there is a rod you use to manually swing them.  The Vario sits in its own oil as well which can be advantageous although the fill location is in the rear which can be confusing for many as the hydro fills are to the side or front of the cab. When loosing hydro fluid many will overfill the CVT instead. It's not idiot proof.   Replacement is a nice feature of the Fendt CVT. It can be replaced in two days easily. The module is not serviceable and is less than 20k. They are in stock at major warehouses. Replacement just involves cab removal, then there is an acess plate to remove the CVT module. No splitting or anything time consuming. Cab is designed to come off easily.  The MF variant is not as fast to do as they crammed all of the hydraulics on top of the transmission which takes more time to remove. 

CVT's main  efficiency comes from systems like Fendt's TMS, being able to select the proper amount of power and RPM needed to achieve the ground speed desired while having an infinate range of speeds allowed. If you sit at full power all day you may not notice it as much, but with varying loads you can. Fuel cost for work done (not hours) is the impressive number especially if you are stuck between gears.  This may not seem apparent to those planting corn or something, but go cut hay with an older powershift and the jumps between gears once you get above 12 on something like a Magnum or Funk are very annoying.


In the end, you shouldn't buy one brand over the other just because of their CVT/IVT. There are too many other factors to consider.


 

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Chris 924
Posted 6/30/2014 12:05 (#3944448 - in reply to #3944401)
Subject: RE: CVT and IVT the same?


Nova Scotia
Join us tomorrow when durally will be giving a class on who invented the wheel, should be a good one............ :)


How you feeling bud? Hope it's going well!
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