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 Massey Ferguson 8680 advise and opinions wantedJump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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Wheatsurfer |
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Well I am looking for a MFWD tractor in the range of 270 to 300 horse power and am seriously considering the Massey 8680. So looking for info from those that may know the good bad and ugly of this tractor model. What can you tell me about the sisu engine, the cvt, how smooth does it ride, the hydraulic output, and anything else a guy should be looking for on a used unit? Thank you and looking forward to lots of replies. | |||
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| durallymax |
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Wi | The Sisu and Fendt CVT are flawless, you will love them. Very powerful, smooth, quiet and efficient. Very little issue with those two parts. One thing that seems to be an issue is people switching ranges too much. I think it may have to do with MF's location of the button and peoples natural tendancy to just think they need to be in low range if moving slow. You are better off leaving it in high all the time if you need the high speed, when you get to the field if you will be doing high draft work shift it down, if you are just spreading a load of manure you can just leave it in high. If you will be doing a lot of work at slow speeds and wont need the high speeds then leave it in low range. The high/low is synchronized and shifted with a dog clutch. Too much shifting on the go in the MF's will hurt this over time. The Tier 3 MF's allowed you to shift it when under a load which is very hard on it and causes a very harsh shift. MF controls the trans much differently than Fendt. Fendt does not allow the shift until the proper conditions are met then it will shift. Think of it like shifting to 4hi with an electric shift transfercase, it just blinks until conditions are right and then it engages. The Tier 4 MF's wouldn't allow shifts as easily but they would throw an error code everytime you tried to shift without meeting the parameters. It's best to just stop and shift it, there is not much need for shifting on the fly unless you are pulling tankers and such up large hills. The confusion over the ranges is pretty common for some reason. The Fendt CVT is stepless all the way to 60kph(50kph in US). You can dial it into any 0.01mph that you choose from 0.01mph(60fph)-34mph(US). The Fendt CVT is simple, its a small planetary gearset (literally like 8") a variable displacement pump and two hydromotors as well as the range gears. The engine is always turning the planet gears in the planetary. The Sun gear drives the collector shaft which drives the range gear, the ring gear is connected to the hydro pump. The hydro motors also drive the collector shaft.. To start out, the pump swings to send fluid to the hydromotors which start out at full swing(45*), speed increases until the pump reaches maximum swing (45*). Then the motors start to swing towards 0* to speed the tractor up, this increases resistance on the ring gear and causes more power to go through the sun gear. When the motors reach 0* the power transfer is 100% mechanical through the sun gear. To get reverse they simply swing the pump the opposite direction up to 30* and the same philosophy applies. With that concept in mind you can see how at low speeds power is transmitted hydraulically and at higher speeds it is more mechanical. By changing the range you allow the transmission to operate under less stress and also in a more mechanical more efficient state. It won't self destruct if you forget to downshift it for tillage or something. It does create added stress on it, but they still hold up fine. The "ride" of the tractor is nice compared to our older tractors without suspension, but nowhere near the Fendt which I wouldn't expect due to the difference in systems. The Front axle suspension on the MF is similar to what CNH used on their stuff also. It works okay and does smooth things out. The Optiride is hit or miss. I wish Agco would've abandoned the idea and just went back to air. They used air on the on the DTa series tractors and the Valtra S series, which is the same platform as the 8600 series, uses air ride in place of the optiride. The Optiride uses hydraulic cylinders with accumulators at all four corners. It does dampen the ride when it works, but it's been plagued with a lot of issues. The Tier 4 models are much improved over the Tier 3. While it can be finnicky, its still far better than no cab suspension. The A/C in the cab has issues keeping up and is very loud, there are some campaigns out to hopefully fix it right now but window tint is always effective. As for hydraulic "output" I don't know, but they do have their share of hydraulic issues. I think they may be finally coming to an end and have the bugs worked out, but hydraulic and electrical gremlins are something that tend to plague them. The newer the machine you can get the better. For whatever reason the 8690s seem cursed with the most issues. As long as your machine gets all the updates and you have a dealer within a reasonable distance, you will like it. What do you plan to use it for? Around here many have learned they are not ideal for dairy use, but for row crop work they seem to be great. | ||
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| Wheatsurfer |
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| Wow that was some great information you gave me there! I have asked numerous people how CVTs work and yours is by far the clearest explanation I have gotten. My plans for use are mostly pulling a large field sprayer, maybe pulling a grain cart, and only in a pinch pulling a 40 foot air seeder. It may be a bit over powered for the sprayer but then again it is a big sprayer and I would rather have more tractor than needed than less. As you are operating the tractor is there any way to know what percent of mechanical drive you are operating at. I did have a chance to run a valtra that was too small to properly pull the sprayer and other than the horse power being too little it was a joy to run. I would have to say that hydraulic and electrical gremlins are 2 of my least favorite gremlins, not that I like any gremlins though. | |||
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| durallymax |
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Wi | CVT's are simple, the ones in farm tractors all follow a similar principle. They use a power split device (the planetary) to mix hydraulic drive with mechanical drive. Power takes the past of least resistance which is what makes the PSD work. Its how a prius works too. On the Fendt, the planets are always turning with the engine, put resistance on the ring gear and power will go through the sun gear, put resistance on the sun gear and power will go the ring gear. The ML260 Fendt CVT is tiny, very tiny for what it does. Since there is never a shift, the parts don't need to be built heavy because they never encounter a shock load. Fendt's claim to fame with their CVT and what their patents protect is the swing angle of their pump and motors. That is what allows them to go through the entire speed range with no steps and have smooth reverse with no shifts. The other CVTs require shifting of clutchpacks through the range to achieve the full range of speed. CNH's popular trans from Steyr uses 4 IIRC, Deere IVT in the bigger tractors uses 2 IIRC. You will also notice how much larger and heavier they are built to withstand the shifting. The clutchpacks add a wear point to the trans, whether or not its actually an issue though I can't say. There is something to be said about a CVT with multiple ranges. At certain speeds in the CNH trans you will have the transmission itself in a more mechanical state than the Fendt trans. How much this benefits you, I don't know. In theory it should. As with anything there are tradeoffs. The Fendt trans is good and has proven itself, I am not going to say it is indestructible and everything else is inferior though. there isn't any way to monitor really where the transmission is at. It's not really a big deal though, just run it in DTM mode and you will always be operating as efficient as possible. The DTM mode is similar to the TMS mode in a Fendt but without the "Auto" function. You pick the percentage it can lug the motor down and it will do the rest. You can also set minimum RPMs and Maximum RPM's if you wish. Generally what I've seen running our DT275B (Tier 3 8680) that we had and our current Tier 4 8680, the RPM's generally don't go much below 1400-1500. I always set them to lug 12% which brings it down to the engines peak at 1850. Some people go a little lower yet. Whatever RPM's you set it to pull the engine down to will end up being the max RPMs because it wont have any reason to rev the motor higher. Fendt's auto mode just adjusts the transmission and engine even further according to the conditions. I planted 90% of our rye under 1100rpm this fall. MF's DTM mode will still save you a ton of fuel though and make operating the tractor easy and enjoyable. It takes a little while for people who are new to the DTM/TMS concept to get used to the "butt" feeling of low RPM's. A lot of people are used to older tractors where you set the throttle up and as the tractor worked you heard it pull the throttle down and "felt" like it was working. With DTM/TMS the engine never rev's up past where its set to lug to and it just increases the load on it as needed. You can feel the engine work a bit harder even if the RPM's aren't changing, but many people "think" the CVT's don't put power down because of the illusions they play on your "butt dyno". Many people also don't feel like they are going that fast down the road when the RPMs are sitting down at 1500 or so because they are used to full throttle on the road. It takes awhile for your butt dyno and other senses to get adjusted to the feel of the CVT along with the DTM/TMS style of operating, but once you do you will love it. Its up to you whether you want to run it with the pedal or the stick. When in DTM mode you simply push the stick forward to speed up and pull it back to slow down, the tractor automatically adjusts the engine speed as needed. There are 4 levels of acceleration that can be programmed for the stick, pedal, cruise speeds and reversion response. These are accessed through the displays on the MF machines. The max speed for the pedal can be adjusted with the scroll wheels, this will rescale the pedal for whatever top speed you set it at. It will not effect the top speed of the tractor. Say you want the pedal at 10mph max for driving next to the chopper but have a 34mph cruise setting, you can run the pedal with its max speed of 10mph for better control, but if you hit the 34mph cruise button it will resume that speed. When you let off the pedal the transmission will decellerate similar to a hydro but a little less agressive. I like to use the pedal when driving around and use the cruise setting for the road and for field operations. We spend a lot of time on the road so this works well, for row crop farming I could see why more people just choose the stick. If you run something on the PTO and need constant speed, one very important thing to remember on the MF's is that unlike the Fendt, when in pedal mode, if you move the hand throttle it responds as if you are operating the foot pedal. Don't ask me why, but it will scare the crap out of you the first few times you accidentally do this. If you still want pedal mode for driving around in the field with say a grain cart but need say 1800RPM for unloading, just program that RPM into the A or B buttons, then when you get up to the truck to unload just hit the button and the engine will go to that speed and you can still use the pedal to control the transmission to inch your way along the truck. Then hit the button again to cancel the speed. One extra step I find annoying on the MF is that you have to hit the DTM button after you use a preset RPM. It does not automatically go back to DTM mode. This may change with some software updates, but last I knew it was still this way for some reason. One nice advantage to the Fendt CVT is that you can limp it home. The 8600s were know to blow some lines internally on the hydro pump which would cause a loss of hydraulics (not the steering though). This leaves you stranded with the parking brake locked. In situations like this, the CVT can limp you home as it requires no hydraulics from the tractor and no electronics are needed to make it operate. You have to manually release the parking brakes from behind the cab, then start the tractor in limp home mode by holding the button, then insert the limp home handle from behind the cab through the floor. Then twist is to speed up or slow down. Pretty simple. The CVT being seperate from the auxillary hydraulics reduces contamination. If you get an 8600 remember the dipstick/fill hole at the rear is the transmission. The hydraulic reservoir has a gauge in the cab and is filled from the top of the right side fuel tank. Take the panel off where the battery is and the fill cap is there. Fendt is the same way, they want you to pump fluid in through a remote so it gets filtered otherwise you fill through the breather on the left side in front of cab under hood. Most of the electrical gremlins with the 8600s that we experienced didn't really shut you down, they were just annoying. There were a few big hydraulic ones but otherwise just leaks. There is a new coupler that should fix most of those issues though. The Tier 3 machines went through DEF sending units a lot. The Tier 4 machines did away with that system. Light control modules loved to fail on all of them and do some funky things when they act up. Overall though they are much better now than when they came out, and Agco does actually listen to the problems that the techs bring up and tries to come up with a solution. A lot of their issues stem from the stuff they outsource. They don't seem to have as good of a stranglehold on their supplies like Deere, Cat and other big names do. Don't think they are a terrible tractor though, I just try to give an honest review. I could just say they are the worst tractor ever due to how much our DT275 was broke, but its clear it was a lemon and also a very early model too. I don't believe in sugar coating things either. I like our Fendt a lot better but it too has broken three times in the 500hrs it now has on it. We got it in september with 160hrs. One small external hydraulic line got a hairline crack, the air line going to the air compressor governor came off and it just came back from its 500hr service and also had to be fixed due to a DEF error code and derate. I did not get a chance to find out what they fixed on it though but it wasn't down long. The bottom line is that no matter what you buy, its going to break and need a dealer to fix it at somepoint so make sure you buy something you can get some service on. A lot of people talk about Deere resale, thats great, but your buying now, the savings on an MF are big and theres a bubble ready to pop in the used market for Deere IMO. lots of machines out there, low corn prices and many smaller guys took advantage of the higher prices the past couple years to upgrade their equipment and now they are set for awhile. What general area are you located in? Do you have decent MF service there? | ||
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| DT87 |
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SC Kansas | We just got an 8650 and really like it. We put an agleader integra in ours and am looking forward to planting season to try that out | ||
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| farmallfan |
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Sheldon, Ia | Whats the difference between the masseys and the challanger tractors? Are they basically the same other than the layout in the cab? Is one a better buy than the other? There are guys around here that run masseys on manure tanks and love them. There is a dealer up here that sells masseys and fendt, I think they push the masseys a little harder because of their ability to be on 30 inch rows. Ziegler Cat just built a dealership here too so hopefully they can have some price competition. | ||
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| DT87 |
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SC Kansas | I think the biggest difference is paint color! | ||
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| Wheatsurfer |
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| Thanks again. I am located in northern Montana, raising wheat barley and peas. As far as dealers go it is a long way to any color. There is one green dealer that kind of has an outpost 27 miles away and to get to other colors we have to travel 60 to 80 miles. Well I guess there is another red dealer about 45 miles away but they suck so bad that they just don't cross my radar much. | |||
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| durallymax |
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Wi | farmallfan - 1/23/2014 08:57 Whats the difference between the masseys and the challanger tractors? Are they basically the same other than the layout in the cab? Is one a better buy than the other? There are guys around here that run masseys on manure tanks and love them. There is a dealer up here that sells masseys and fendt, I think they push the masseys a little harder because of their ability to be on 30 inch rows. Ziegler Cat just built a dealership here too so hopefully they can have some price competition. Same other than the layout and sheetmetal. IIRC the Challenger's were priced higher too. I also see a lot of people running articulateds on tanks in Iowa, much different terrain than up here. Very good Fendt support and resale helps though too, lots of dealers. If you are sitting on the road with a tanker, large singles are much nicer and theres no need for the 60" setting, but some people still think they need every tractor to have the ability to be set to 60". | ||
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| farmboy78 |
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ec illinois champaign | did uou have to go with the paradyme on the cab or a small globe when you went with integra ? | ||
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| onion farmer |
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southeast Washington | There getting to be alot around here and they are great tractors. With there economy PTO they can pull a big baler or mower and burn 5 to 6 gal per hour way less than the other brands. The opti ride plus is the only way they come now and they have very few problems . The early ones had opti ride and they had some issues. In low range they go 17 miles and hour use this to do all field work. High speed is for the road. Use the DTM and let the tractor do the rest get used to pulling big loads at 15 to 1700 RPM. | ||
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| littlechickenfarmer |
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A corn field somewhere on planet vulcan | I keep hearing about the width being wrong on the fendts, why not just go wider? should work fine. The masseys are really good, but if you buy new maybe swing a deal to get some extra warrenty if you are worried that the bugs have not been worked out. They sure have come a long way the last few years. | ||
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| durallymax |
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Wi | littlechickenfarmer - 1/23/2014 18:16 I keep hearing about the width being wrong on the fendts, why not just go wider? should work fine. The masseys are really good, but if you buy new maybe swing a deal to get some extra warrenty if you are worried that the bugs have not been worked out. They sure have come a long way the last few years. Do you mean 90" or 120" I don't know why people don't. Why not just run single IF800s or 900s and not worry about where the planter plants, unless you need to get between standing rows? onion farmer - 1/23/2014 18:14 There getting to be alot around here and they are great tractors. With there economy PTO they can pull a big baler or mower and burn 5 to 6 gal per hour way less than the other brands. The opti ride plus is the only way they come now and they have very few problems . The early ones had opti ride and they had some issues. In low range they go 17 miles and hour use this to do all field work. High speed is for the road. Use the DTM and let the tractor do the rest get used to pulling big loads at 15 to 1700 RPM. One thing to note about the PTO, you can either get a 540/1000PTO or 1000/1000e PTO. Can't have both. Switching shafts on the MF/Challenger/Fendt is identical. Just six nuts to remove with a 17mm and the shaft pops out without any oil leakage. Tier 3 tractors had the option of opti-ride or opti-ride plus. Both were epic failures, they did not have some issues they had every issue. There are only so many components to a cab suspension system and every single one of them failed. Hydraulic rams, accumulators, sensors, controllers, broken mounts, blown lines, etc on and on and on. Tier 4 models did not allow any options. While they did have a lot of the bugs worked out, the suspension still had its quirks. It still loves to just randomly move around for no reason, but it is much better than the older models. Low range tops out at 18mph in the MF/Challenger and 22mph in the Fendt. | ||
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| DT87 |
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SC Kansas | small globe and slingshot with the integra | ||
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| Chris 924 |
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Nova Scotia | durallymax - 1/23/2014 21:44 littlechickenfarmer - 1/23/2014 18:16 I keep hearing about the width being wrong on the fendts, why not just go wider? should work fine. The masseys are really good, but if you buy new maybe swing a deal to get some extra warrenty if you are worried that the bugs have not been worked out. They sure have come a long way the last few years. Do you mean 90" or 120" I don't know why people don't. Why not just run single IF800s or 900s and not worry about where the planter plants, unless you need to get between standing rows? onion farmer - 1/23/2014 18:14 There getting to be alot around here and they are great tractors. With there economy PTO they can pull a big baler or mower and burn 5 to 6 gal per hour way less than the other brands. The opti ride plus is the only way they come now and they have very few problems . The early ones had opti ride and they had some issues. In low range they go 17 miles and hour use this to do all field work. High speed is for the road. Use the DTM and let the tractor do the rest get used to pulling big loads at 15 to 1700 RPM. One thing to note about the PTO, you can either get a 540/1000PTO or 1000/1000e PTO. Can't have both. Switching shafts on the MF/Challenger/Fendt is identical. Just six nuts to remove with a 17mm and the shaft pops out without any oil leakage. Tier 3 tractors had the option of opti-ride or opti-ride plus. Both were epic failures, they did not have some issues they had every issue. There are only so many components to a cab suspension system and every single one of them failed. Hydraulic rams, accumulators, sensors, controllers, broken mounts, blown lines, etc on and on and on. Tier 4 models did not allow any options. While they did have a lot of the bugs worked out, the suspension still had its quirks. It still loves to just randomly move around for no reason, but it is much better than the older models. Low range tops out at 18mph in the MF/Challenger and 22mph in the Fendt. we got our 930 with 1000 /1000e and just run it in 1000 at low rpm with 540 shaft on , works great just rev till pto is running 540 , should have got the 924 that way but didn't | ||
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| durallymax |
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Wi | Chris 924 - 1/24/2014 08:46 we got our 930 with 1000 /1000e and just run it in 1000 at low rpm with 540 shaft on , works great just rev till pto is running 540 , should have got the 924 that way but didn't If I was ordering one, I would probably get the 1000eco and just run a 540 adapter when needed, we do this on our other tractors that can't be switched. The majority of the PTO works ours does is on the tanker where the eco would be nice because the power is not needed at all. | ||
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