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| am getting mixed reports on r134a being phased out like R12 was. any one know for sure? |
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Manitoba | yes CO2 is the new stuff |
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| Is CO2 going to be compatible with R134A? |
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Inglis,MB | as long as they don't phase out propane I'm good... |
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Manitoba | Carbon Dioxide in New Auto A/C
The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
under their Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP)
program has listed R744 as acceptable alternative in new
auto (MVAC) air conditioning systems subject to use
conditions. The use conditions include record keeping on its
use, high-pressure system warning label /compressor cut-off
switch /unique fittings and CO2 concentration limits must be
safeguarded for safety (exposure). The entire details and
requirements can been seen at:
www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/regulations.html
The US EPA has also listed HFO 1234yf and HFC 152a as
acceptable with use conditions in new MVAC systems.
This is from MOPIA (Manitoba Ozone Protection Industry Association), CFC governing body in Manitoba. |
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Schlegel Farms, Hagerstown Indiana | Ya, and if something goes wrong, you'll have a big hole kind of like a sun roof for ventilation (LoL) |
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Ayr Queensland Australia 4807 | R134A is now about $650 au for 12kg of it . We now have what our loverly government calls a carbon tax which R134a contributes 1.3 tonne of carbon per kg our carbon price is $23 per tonne . And you think Obama is bad . I would love to try propane however I have seen some plumbers vans blown to pieces here . Couple weeks ago I asked about 134a and price was $130 for 24 lbs I would stock up as much as I could
Edited by KelB 7/21/2012 05:11
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Macon, IL | What the heck!
I just converted EVERYTHING to 134 in the last couple years. Does this mean I get to buy a whole other set of expansion valves, driers, and clean and recharge them all again????
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St.Clair Co. IL. | naa Paul , juat get over to rural king and stock up!! I bought a bunch last yr. when they said 2012 was the change over, it was sky high then, now I see it on sale all the time at rural king even the big kegs. so I bought some more now will have plenty for a long long time. Bob |
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NC Iowa | Mark (EC,IN) - 7/20/2012 22:04
Ya, and if something goes wrong, you'll have a big hole kind of like a sun roof for ventilation (LoL)
are there any documented cases of propane bases refrigerant causing a 'big hole'? just wondering as i have been using dura-cool in one tractor for years. the system can't take the pressures of 134, and it will leak out in a few months.. |
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| The home mechanic, looking at a can or two of R12 or R134a, may think that government concern over refrigerant is overblown. However, CFCs like R12 have been found high in the atmosphere, where they destroy ozone (since CFCs have been regulated, the ever-widening holes in the ozone layer have been healing themselves). In addition, R134a is 1,400 times as effective at trapping heat as carbon dioxide; a few leaks from a few cars would probably not have any serious impact, but there are an estimated (by the auto industry) 400 million mobile air conditioners out there.
Europe is phasing out R134a due to its relationship to global warming. Carbon dioxide, the current E.U. favorite to replace R134a, is the least powerful greenhouse-gas, but requires high pressures, and is less effective. However, in the United States, the approved replacement is HFO-1234yf. This new refrigerant is dramatically less likely to affect climate change than R134a, and while it will not be required until the 2017 model year, automakers can get greenhouse gas credits from the 2012 to 2016 model years by using it. The new gas was created by Honeywell and DuPont.
R134a, which replaced R12, lives for around 13 years in the atmosphere before breaking down; its “global warming potential” (GWP) is 1,400. 1234yf, on the other hand, breaks up in around 11 days, for a GWP of 4. It was developed to meet European Union directives, which demand a refrigerant with a GWP of less than 150.
Whether HFO-1234yf can be used as a replacement for R-134a is still unclear, but it seems unlikely, as R134a will not be banned; instead, it will have a hefty tax which will prevent frivolous use (e.g. putting in three or four cans a month) and tip the balance for many customers from “frequent refills” to “repair.”
Many have complained about the corrosive effects of R134a and its tendency to leak out of automotive air conditioners much faster than the old R12, which was phased out in the mid-1990s. R1234yf was endorsed by the Society of Automotive Engineers and Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association; a Delphi executive wrote that it was “both a cost-efficient and effective refrigerant option.” It can be used with low-pressure air conditioning systems.
http://www.allpar.com/eek/ac.html |
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southern MN | I'll have to stockpile some 134 next to my lightbulp stockpile.
--->Paul |
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thumb of michigan | Co2 will not work in 99% of the old systems as the pressures are way higher. I have a bone chip in my right hand and a scar above it from where a can of 134 exploded while charging a system that had propane in it that I was not told about. |
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| Dropping prices of 134a and the report that suppliers want to clean out the warehouse would seem to indicate that by next season there will be a new product being pushed. R-12 has been more quietly being replaced by R410a. The ironic part is that 134a is being blended into a lot of the newer choices. I would think the reduced cost of 134a would be the signal to stockplie it. Only recently have some of us run out/low on R-12. |
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Texas | When will this insanity end ??????????
First r-12 ,but 134 was going to save the world ,now 134 is going to kill the ozone layer .........ggggeeeeezzzzz.
Edited by tommyw-5088 7/21/2012 13:47
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southern Illinois | Quote; I have a bone chip in my right hand and a scar above it from where a can of 134 exploded while charging a system that had propane in it that I was not told about.
What caused the can to explode? I have seen 12, 134 both mixed with propane with no problems, just wondering what happened in your case.
Edited by commissioner 7/21/2012 14:54
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| No kidding......... just switched 1 tractor and combine over to 134 A They must think people have no memories. R -12 they mandated a machine to recover it but bragged R-134A could be vented to the atmosphere with no problems when it was introduced.........now 134A must be reclaimed too. Noticing a pattern here yet? It's like everything else in this world it can be distilled down to one of the following 3. 1) money 2) greed or 3) power that's it. Another switch in refrigerant plays right into the money/ power grab so many are thirsting for. |
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thumb of michigan | Not really sure what happened other than the guy showed me a can of what he put in before switching over to 134a. He must have put the conversion fittings on after putting in the glider gas. It was not cooling and showed a low charge so I put in a couple cans in through the manifold gauges. Pressures were coming up and I picked up the can by the fitting on the top to feel how much was left in it when I heard the loudest bang i ever heard in my life. The bottom of the can blew out and put a hole in the bumper cover, the valve on the can tap tore open the palm of my hand just behind the first knuckle and chipped a piece of bone off and then tore upward in a spin and put a dent in a sheet of roofing steel in my shop. I assume there was some air in the system and it somehow combusted with the propane or else it was somehow a rapid chemical reaction, but nothing is for sure. After bandaging my hand I got a new pair of shorts and took the rest of the day off. I also refused to work on that vehicle again. Ever. |
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Manitoba | Actually R-134 was never meant to save the world, at its introduction it was simply an interim solution until something better came along. Took quite a few years... |
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Caraway, AR | Is that a special grade of propane or the regular stuff. Thanks, john Edit: or is it a blend of butane/propane or other.
Edited by John..neAR 7/21/2012 19:01
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | redgreenandrust - 7/22/2012 15:32
Not really sure what happened other than the guy showed me a can of what he put in before switching over to 134a. He must have put the conversion fittings on after putting in the glider gas. It was not cooling and showed a low charge so I put in a couple cans in through the manifold gauges. Pressures were coming up and I picked up the can by the fitting on the top to feel how much was left in it when I heard the loudest bang i ever heard in my life. The bottom of the can blew out and put a hole in the bumper cover, the valve on the can tap tore open the palm of my hand just behind the first knuckle and chipped a piece of bone off and then tore upward in a spin and put a dent in a sheet of roofing steel in my shop. I assume there was some air in the system and it somehow combusted with the propane or else it was somehow a rapid chemical reaction, but nothing is for sure. After bandaging my hand I got a new pair of shorts and took the rest of the day off. I also refused to work on that vehicle again. Ever.
Trying to imagine what was going on to backfeed high pressure into the little 12oz can. Did the guy install the 134a conversion fittings on the wrong R12 port so the big low side R134a adapter was on the high side R12 port of the compressor ? Could the high side valve on the gauge set have been cracked open or leaking, to put high pressure refrigerant back into the can ?
The can tapper valve is supposed to have a check valve to prevent backflow into the can, but they don't always work.
Back in the day when R12 was still common, I tried adding refrigerant into an unfamiliar system. I got things running and cracked the low side gauge set valve open to let refrigerant (R12) into the system. I was just lucky that I still had the little can in my hand, as the instant I opened the low side valve, the can started to get warm !! I thought " what is going on here" and closed the low side gauge valve . I looked over the hose connections, then realized that I had the hoses connected backwards on the identical R12 low / high fittings!!!!.
When i cracked the low side valve open, I was feeding high pressure refrigerant back to the can !!!
I was really lucky that I noticed the temp increase of the can and closed the valve before high side pressure exploded the can in my hand / face.
The check valve in the can tapper valve should have closed and prevented any refrigerant flow back into the can, but it did not, so I had no protection from my own wrong connection screw up.
I will never forget that one (20 years ago), just really glad I got away without doing a lot of damage to myself. |
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NC Iowa | redgreenandrust - 7/21/2012 08:30
Co2 will not work in 99% of the old systems as the pressures are way higher. I have a bone chip in my right hand and a scar above it from where a can of 134 exploded while charging a system that had propane in it that I was not told about.
propane has much less pressure than 134. unless you somehow managed to hook the can to the high side, l can't see how that could happen. used to happen alot on the r12 system when can got accidently hooked to high side.
i have ac on tractors and combines with r12, r134, and dura-cool. i keep them straight. |
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NC Iowa | John..neAR - 7/21/2012 16:37
Is that a special grade of propane or the regular stuff. Thanks, john Edit: or is it a blend of butane/propane or other.
it is a pure propane, like is available from coleman camping fuel. not what you get for the corn dryer. it also has a small amount of iso-butane in it. the recipe is available on the net, but much easier to just buy dura-cool from worthington ag parts. just ordered a case on their 15% off sale. |
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thumb of michigan | High side valve was closed and I had the low side on the receiver/dryer, so not sure what happened.
Most of the glider gasses I have seen were a blend of propane, butane, and ethane. |
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | redgreenandrust - 7/22/2012 19:16
High side valve was closed and I had the low side on the receiver/dryer, so not sure what happened.
Most of the glider gasses I have seen were a blend of propane, butane, and ethane.
If you had the low side hose connected to the reciever dryer, you had it connected to the high side of the system.
The high side goes from the high side of the compressor, through the condenser,through the reciever dryer to the expansion valve or orfice tube. Only after the expansion valve or orfice tube are you on the low side, which goes through the evaporator then back to the low side of the compressor.
Edited by Jon Hagen 7/21/2012 22:25
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Faunsdale, AL | """""
If you had the low side hose connected to the reciever dryer, you had it connected to the high side of the system.
"""""
Not on most vehicle systems I have seen lately. Receiver/accumulator is on suction side. |
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thumb of michigan | I should have said accumulator, right after the evaporator and going to the suction port. It was on the low side. The conversion fittings will not fit on the wrong ports. Thinking car system, typing tractor system. My mistake. Like a zillion other GM vehicles it had an accumulator on the right side near the firewall. |
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | yes I agree like the old GM system with the accumulator on the low side. When I read reciever dryer, that said to me "high side", which is where it is located on all the tractors and combines and most cars / trucks I have worked on.
Edited by Jon Hagen 7/22/2012 11:33
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NC Iowa | jon, i got the 134 air working on that 92 k1500. could not get the plastic bits all flushed out of the condenser, and figured it would just plug the orifice tube again so replaced the condenser. top nut was seized on the condensor, so new line. got a new delco r4, as 4 seasons and cwi did not have good reviews for holding up. cost $600 in parts plus supplies. book said 2.8 lb of r12. i had 240psi high side pressure after 2 cans so i quit. good cold air.
i got 2 new mastercool (85510) can traps with the check valve. couldn't get anything through either of them, even with my 134 gauge set, so i bought a tap without a check valve to get system charged. any ideas on that?
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | gene_champ - 7/23/2012 12:38
jon, i got the 134 air working on that 92 k1500. could not get the plastic bits all flushed out of the condenser, and figured it would just plug the orifice tube again so replaced the condenser. top nut was seized on the condensor, so new line. got a new delco r4, as 4 seasons and cwi did not have good reviews for holding up. cost $600 in parts plus supplies. book said 2.8 lb of r12. i had 240psi high side pressure after 2 cans so i quit. good cold air.
i got 2 new mastercool (85510) can traps with the check valve. couldn't get anything through either of them, even with my 134 gauge set, so i bought a tap without a check valve to get system charged. any ideas on that?
Glad you got it working. I don't know what to tell you about the can tapper check valves, except wondering, is there so much cheap junk for sale that the things are as likely to stick open or closed as work as intended ??
I did not realize you could still buy a can tapper valve without a check valve, as that is an important safety feature. Normally it only takes about 2-3 pounds pressure difference to push the check valve off it's seat, so I don't really understand why they did not work unless defective ?? |
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R134A phase out
