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Gov regulations (management plan) on Manure in Pennsylvania Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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JohnDeereGreenWKY |
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West Ky | I found this post on another site I frequent and I was wanting to know if anybody else has heard of this or if this is something to be worried about. It always seems as though once a policy is implemented in one state it spreads to other states. What are your thoughts on this. | ||
paul the original |
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southern MN | I've heard of that, don't know if it's totally true. When the horse owners realize it affects them I'd guess some changes will be made, but only the squeaky wheels will get any changes..... Here in MN, I have around 25 head of cattle, and tho every agency says if you have less than 150 head of cattle you don't have much in permits or nothing to worry about, the actual rules end up being you need to register if you have 10 head or more, or any hewad at all near water, and if you have over 10 head and are near water you get to play almost the same paperwork as the big 1,000 head operations. Well - in southen MN, they can say any farm at all is near water, so you are dragged into the regulations, even tho the talking heads say & assume if you have less than 150 head there is no issue at all.... How it is. We squeak all we can, but often no one is listening, too busy driving the steam roller that is going over us. :) --->Paul | ||
patriotsprayer |
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Southeastern, PA. 30 miles west of Phila | yes. Everything you posted is correct. We are slowly learning what all this involves....for now on the surface it seems well-intentioned. But I am slowly discovering more and more about this plan that I don't like. Time will tell, but considering this is coming from the government. It probably will not end well. They are putting enough of teeth into the system that if someone has a major pollution event the powers that be will probably find enough of things wrong to shut the farmer down, especially the small single family operations. If this does not make you mad then consider this. Most public sewage treatment plants in PA have to dump raw sewage into creeks and rivers whenever a rain event exceeds 1/2 " in an hour. Now can you imagine a farmer doing that? He would make the headline evening news nationwide! nuf said, Merlin | ||
Plotski |
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Massachusetts | Agenda 21 is real and scary. Look it up. | ||
deersniper |
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Maryland has the same thing. You have to have a nutrient management plan if you apply manjre or fertilizer or have 8 or more animals or 8K in gross revenue. There are many farms lut of compliance. They also let sewage treatment plants put raw sewage in thr bay if there is a half knch or more of raiin. That is why you will hear advisories not to swim or fish in some of the rivers. Edited by deersniper 2/27/2012 16:49 | |||
martin |
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JDG, This is what I know about the whole process called Nutrient Management, as it pertains to PA. a) My understanding is that the legislation/ rules were set in place in the 1970's that every farm in PA that generates manure needs to have a Manure Management Plan. Over the years, this regulation was not enforced and ignored, to the point that many people don't realize this regulation has been on the books for years. I do not know if these regulations are state-mandated, or if they are related to federal regulations. Back in 2010 (?), EPA officials made a visit to a watershed in Lancaster Co, PA. It was a small watershed, with about 22 farmers in the watershed. I believe 21 of those 22 farmers were either Amish or Steel Wheel Mennonites. One of the reasons that EPA picked this watershed is that it is one of the "trouble areas", with regards to the Cheasapeake Bay. During their visit, EPA were looking for a couple of things, among them: does each farmer have a Conservation Plan? does each farmer have a Manure Management Plan? To be honest, most of the farmers in the watershed did not have them. EPA told them they need to get these plans current, and sent a date to revisit the farmers in this watershed. As a result of EPA visiting this watershed, and requesting to see the Conservation Plans and Manure Management Plans, PA DEP is putting on an "extra push" to educate all farmers across the state that these Plans are required. This is the story as I know it. If someone (from PA?) knows more, please feel free to correct me. Before PA-DEP decided to put the "push on" to educate farmers about these regulations, they took the time to update their Manure Management Manual, to get it in tune with the rest of DEP's Nutrient regulations. I think this process took close to a year. This updated manual was released late in October 2011, and is the manual that you are referencing. Currently, PA DEP is educating farmers on the need for this Manure Management Plan, and is not fining anyone for not having one...... yet. I have not heard how long farmers will have to get this Plan completed. I expect at least a year, but I have not heard anything definite. US EPA is looking to come down hard on PA farmers, and my understanding is that PA DEP is pushing back (hard). So, I would be reluctant to start bad-mouthing PA-DEP. It is my understanding that they are trying to work with the ag community in the process of implementing these regs. One example that I have heard: EPA would like to ban - completely ban - manure spreading in winter time. PA DEP has pushed back on this issue, stating that banning manure spreading is not practical in PA. PA-DEP has put into place more stringent regulations regarding when manure can and cannot be spread in wintertime in PA; however, it has not been outright banned. The other thing that I would say.... I think PA DEP has bent over backwards to be accommodating to the ag community in allowing farmers to create their own Manure Management Plans. There are more stringent regulations as to what a farmer can and cannot do, if the farmer creates their own plan; but at least they have the option to do so.
As for the idea that everyone who has animals needs a plan, I say: "Why Not?" If SuzyQ homeowner has 2 horses on 1/4 acre lot next to a stream, why shouldn't she need a Plan? Right now, with PA's Act 38 Nutrient Management program, anyone with less than 8 animal units (1 animal unit = 1000 lbs live weight), is exempt from Act 38. However, someone with 2 horses on 1/4 acre might be causing more problems than a dairyman with 50 cows on 150 acres. The other comment I would make: if SuzyQ homeowner has to abide by these regulations, maybe she will be a bit less inclined to point a finger at commercial farmers, and ask the government to regulate them more....... So, I say: "Why Not???!!!"
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martin |
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If anyone is reading this and is from the Great State of Maryland, please comment: Is manure spreading in wintertime completely banned in Maryland? If so, what are the dates of when manure spreading is/ is not allowed? I thought I had heard that it is banned, but I can't be sure. So, if you know, please enlighten all of us. | |||
deersniper |
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No solid manure spreading from november15 to march first. You can only spread manure in the winter if it is liquid and you are out of storage. Edited by deersniper 2/27/2012 19:53 | |||
Dave75 |
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Rural Valley pa | I would think liquid would run off faster than solid why liquid only in winter. | ||
bclayville |
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MD | Hi Martin - My current understanding is - Winter (I think Nov 15 - March 1) spreading of only non-stackable manures is still allowed, if the manure generator has no other option. Some setbacks and use of cover crops must be observed, and spreading on steep slopes is not allowed. All nutrients must be accounted for in NMP for upcoming crop. New regs have been proposed to eliminate ALL winter spreading soon (like 2016.) Oddly enough, municipalities have been opposing the new proposed regs as strongly as ag, as it will eliminate winter sludge spreading by many towns that have little or no sludge storage facilities. I may have my facts wrong; someone please set me straight if I do. Who knows what regs will result, but I am always nervous when Annapolis is in session. | ||
deersniper |
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Dave75 - 2/27/2012 19:55 I would think liquid would run off faster than solid why liquid only in winter. From what I understand, farmers don't have enough storage and they don't want pits to overflow. They say that manure that is stackable is easily storable and can't be winter spread. | |||
ayrporte |
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Eastern Ont | Walkerton is a relatively small community. At the time of the event Stan Koebel was manager and Frank Koebel was water foreman. Neither had any formal training in their position, retaining their jobs through three decades of on-the-job experience. The water supply became contaminated with the highly dangerous O157:H7 strain of E. coli bacteria, from farm runoff into an adjacent well that was known for years to be vulnerable to contamination. This is what started it up here Walkerton Tragedy Starting May 15, 2000, many residents of the town of about 5,000 began to simultaneously experience blue diarrhea, gastrointestinal infections and other symptoms of E. coli infection. For days the Walkerton Public Utilities Commission insisted the water supply was "OK" despite being in possession of laboratory tests that had found evidence of contamination. On May 21, an escalation in the number of patients with similar symptoms finally spurred the region's Medical Officer of Health, Dr. Murray McQuigge, to issue a boil water advisory, warning residents not to drink the water. At least seven people died directly from drinking the E. coli contaminated water, who might have been saved if the Walkerton Public Utilities Commission had admitted to contaminated water sooner, and about 2,500 became ill. What they forgot to mention is that the two people responsible for this event were falsifying records on numerous occasions They knew what they were doing If you can get the regs rescinded before they start by all means do it It is only giving useless job justification bureaucrats a reason to tell you how to run and manage your farm Ask the same people that are pushing these regs down your throats Why are the towns and cities excempt??? You will comply with the regs when everyone has to comply with the regs If not When the towns and cities show up at your doorstep wanting to spread Biosolids ask them to kindly look after their own "ship" you have to look after yours and cant look after both http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/environment/en/subject/nutrient_management... | ||
John 86 |
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Seaforth, Ontario | That well should never have been drilled there; in a wet area downhill from a farmstead. Disaster waiting to happen; exacerbated by dereliction of duties by the operators. | ||
Ed Winkle |
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Martinsville, Ohio | Very good explanation, Martin. Good question, why not? Thought of a few horses on the Little Miami River bare lot running to the river bank. Ed | ||
Jon S |
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That's the way that I understand the latest...stay tuned because it changes often. I find these arbitrary dates to be absurd. So, essentially we have to store up an entire years worth of manure and spread it in the course of 2 to 2.5 months...because crops are in the field in between "the no spread zone". Cover crops are encouraged but we can't apply manure in the fall on them, so now we are down to 1 to 1.5 months of an application window. Put it all on in the Spring just in time for the heavy rains that seem to be so prominent that time of year. So all of the manure across the state is spread in the course of about a month rather than spreading it out over a larger window....and they wonder why there's a problem. | |||
Austin |
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Garrett County, MD | We have been dealing with this for a long time in MD. Google Chesapeake Bay Nutrient Management Plan. To much to explain here, but yes it is a hassle and when I tell farmers from other areas what we go through here they cannot believe it. I can't blame them for laughing. Interestingly enough where I farm in MD is WEST of the Eastern Continental divide, so we don't effect the Bay, but we are subject to the same rules. The idea of "nutrient mgmt plans" and such is not bad, but it is simply one other example of how backward things get when the government tries to regulate something. There was an interesting article in the Lancaster Farmer maybe 4 or 8 weeks ago detailing where the government plans on going in the future with all this in MD. It was down right scary. At this point we have two options, change the leadership and direction of the decision makers here in MD. Or slowly loose commercial farming in MD. Its that simple. The rules they have outlined to be implemented by 2015 or so are simply NOT attainable and will put farmers out of business. Period. I know there have been some rules in PA on this but it seems they are moving to be more like MD every year. I think the state of PA cares more about their agriculture, so hopefully someone will fight for the farmers up there. | ||
paul the original |
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southern MN | Agree with you on that last part, Martin. We can't expempt the homesteaders and horse owners, and expect things to get better for production ag. If they are included in these rules, the squeaky wheel is going to be a lot louder.... My neighbor has 12 horses on less than 7 acres total - house, well, septic, and horses... When he spread manure on his pasture, he had to go over 3 times, didn't see much green, it was all brown for a couple weeks..... His pasture is 200 feet from my wetland..... Now I'm not complaining about him, but surely that was a bigger problem than my 20-30 head of cattle grazing on 12 acres of grass and 40 acres of cornstalks all winter. But I'm regulated here in MN, while no one seems to notice the neighbor.... Need to get everyone on board these regulations, so everyone understands the consequences. --->Paul | ||
ayrporte |
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Eastern Ont | This is where this Stuff all Started http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/news.shtml Makes you wonder what other Regs they are dreaming up now | ||
PeteMN |
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E.Central MN | Plus the problem that the general public is very scared of large manure storage structures. Concentrating the manure in larger and larger areas for longer periods of time is an accident waiting to happen when rainfall becomes excessive. | ||
JohnDeereGreenWKY |
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West Ky | Its just amazing to me at how much regulation is being implemented. Pretty soon only the huge ag corporations will only have the funds and the lobbyist to be able to farm... Or is that is the plan to begin with? Slowly choking out the farmer and only have huge ag farm everything and control the food supply? | ||
porksplace |
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Clearville, Pa. | Martin,correct me if I am wrong but it was also my understanding they were going to check some run off from housing ! | ||
ayrporte |
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Eastern Ont | Give JohnDeereGreenWKY the medal he figured it out Up here that is what is happening The small abattoirs are being forced out of business by useless regulations Even with the dairies the small guys are being overburdened with government red tape The Bureaucrats are forgetting that someone actually has to do the work around here. Not just push paper for the sake of pushing paper. It used to be that policy makers actually worked in the field for 5-6 years before moving up the ladder Now they are coming right out of School into a policy making position Doesn't that give you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that people who have never been in the field are making policy | ||
behog |
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frederick, MD | I am spreading manure today and it is running into the bay. But when the clock strikes midnight, all manure will be retained on the soil and used by the crop, lol. This is a joke. I told the cover crop people about the manure spreading thing. I told them they where incouraging people to spread manure on open land. Wouldnt it be better for the bay to spread your manure where something was going to grow all fall, winter and spring???? | ||
Jon S |
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Austin - 2/28/2012 08:52 There was an interesting article in the Lancaster Farmer maybe 4 or 8 weeks ago detailing where the government plans on going in the future with all this in MD. It was down right scary. . I want to read that article. Do you have a link or at least a title of the article so I can search their archives? | |||
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