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3176B 9CK Engine
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Ray316
Posted 12/1/2011 21:06 (#2079541)
Subject: 3176B 9CK Engine


I have a noisy air compressor mounted on the driver's side(left side) of a 1995/96 Ford LA9000 tractor.
I haven't bought this truck yet that has approximately 328,000 miles on it and if I do buy this 35000GVW truck, I would like to gain some insight as to what this first task of replacing this air compressor entails.
I would like to know how much work is involved to replace this air compressor AND the drive gear that drives the spline of this compressor as a "worst case" scenario.
I would also like to know where I should buy this gear and compressor and what i should expect to spend for these 2 components.

I appreciate your input here, and also wouldn't mind getting an idea of what you think of purchasing this truck with the idea of converting it to single axle dump.
The motor appears to run very well and seems pretty clean and dry. It has a 9 speed road ranger transmission and appears suitable for a 10 foot dump body.
It sounds pretty noisy inside the cab driving down the highway, however, a good part of this is that wonderful compressor.
That said, I still feel this 3176 cat and cab combination appears more noisy then other single axle tractors that I have driven. I am very happy that since I intend use it as a dump truck, that I do not have to entertain the thought of going cross country in it.
Never-the-less, dump truck or not, less noise in the cab would be nice, and the replacement of this compressor will undoubtedly help.

I know that the caterpillar 3176B motor isn't a desperately sought after motor, however, would anyone go as far as to say that this motor in and of itself tends to be more noisy than say the M-11 Cummins in this same cab set-up?
Just curious, and given my intended application would the M-11 cummins be a better way to go in general or would you prefer the 3176B or even the series 60 11.1 liter engine for a small 35000GVW dump truck?

Thank you in advance for any comments or advice you can offer.






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CATGUY
Posted 12/2/2011 20:33 (#2081385 - in reply to #2079541)
Subject: RE: 3176B 9CK Engine


Iowa

I will attach some photos, so you can see what it looks like inside, that front cover.

It will probably require both an air compressor and a new gear(with new internal splines) to get the noise reduced.

We would pull the radiator out to do this, but it might be able to be done from the side, BUT that dang gasket between the front cover and the front housing CAN BE a real pain to clean off.

One nice thing, is that no special tooling is needed to install the front crankshaft seal into front housing, during reassembly. {but those 5 studs are spaced differently, so get it lined up, before you push it on OVER the plastic applicator, that comes with the new crankshaft seal (comes as an assembly, do not separate)}


If you choose to do it, be careful removing and reinstalling that front cover. there are two roller bearings, that must slide in and out of recessed bores/pockets in the front cover. going back together, i seen guys get them cocked and not pushed in all the way, and they put in bolts and ran them in, and broke the front cover= in too big of a hurry and too quick to use an air impact wrench, too. (need to lightly tap with a deadblow hammer, on reassembly) [also, wipe oil on those inside bores/pockets, before assembly, too.]







Attachments
----------------
Attachments 3176B acc drive picture 2.mdi (45KB - 26069 downloads)
Attachments 3176B front housing group 2.mdi (107KB - 49424 downloads)
Attachments generic photo of 3176B air compressor 2.mdi (47KB - 2027 downloads)
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Ray316
Posted 12/3/2011 00:06 (#2081812 - in reply to #2081385)
Subject: RE: 3176B 9CK Engine



Thank you for responding CatGuy.
I haven't got my microsoft document viewer working yet, but I will to view the images that you sent me..

I am looking at a 1996 (manufacture date 8/95) Ford LA9000. It has a 3176(B) 9CK motor and it appears to run well and
the motor has 328,000 miles on it. I did notice some slight gases coming out of the rubber hose that leaves the valve cover, but this is probably normal.
The oil pressure at 650rpm idle is close to 30 psi even when warm and moves to 45psi easily as I increase rpm.

In general it seems more noisy or rather louder then other engines I've heard but appears dry around the head and the front cover.
I did see some oil below the power steering pump and it looks like motor oil but was slight.

I am a little afraid of the engine because they apparently have some weak points such as the Aluminum spacer block between the block and the head.
The transmission is a 9 speed roadranger. I was told that it has 325 horsepower but it could be less. I imagine I need the arrangement number to tell that. I want to make a 35,ooo GVW dump truck out of it.
I do know where there are some 2003 Sterlings but they have C12's in them with around 800,000 on them. They have a straight 7 speed with this combination.

Would you opt for the later model 2003 truck and the c12 engine with 800,000 or the 96 truck with the 3176B with 328,000 miles?
I know that I've given you limited information but am curious as to which truck you would lean towards. No maintenance records on either truck are available.
Is there anything in particular that I should check on this 3176B cat motor that you can think of?

Thank you for the help Catguy.

Ray
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CATGUY
Posted 12/3/2011 12:11 (#2082339 - in reply to #2081812)
Subject: RE: 3176B 9CK Engine


Iowa

I like the C-12 engine better, BUT that a lot of miles(and no records) = probably close to an overhaul, but some go past 1 million miles, too. I suspect those million engines are run for at least 10-16 hours daily [= less wear once things are warmed up] 

The 3176B engine, can leak oil at the cam gasket between the front housing and the Alum. spacer deck, to repair , it would require the complete removal of the camshaft , fuel transfer pump, top end components, everything up front(radiator, fan, front cover, idler gears, front housing, etc.) It is a big job. 

Yes, head gaskets can seep on both engines, and allow coolant to enter the oil pan, they both can have water pump weep hole, get clogged up and also can push coolant into oil pan, too. Remember, not every engine does this, these are just some things that can happen.

When I look at trucks, I then to look at ones that are easier to work on = Because, I'm going to be the guy that does the work. LOL
I don't like engines that are 1/2 way under the cab, for that reason.

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Ray316
Posted 12/3/2011 14:45 (#2082539 - in reply to #2082339)
Subject: Re: 3176B 9CK Engine



Hello again and thanks for the reply.

I am still interested in your opinion given my scenario which I realize is not over-flowing with details.
The scenario is that both trucks have no maintenance records.
The first is a 1996 (built 8/95) Ford LA9000 with the 3176B 9ck 24089 engine with a 9 speed road ranger transmission,
I can tell you that this was owned by this lumber yard since NEW, and I found it odd that given this fact he had no records.
He also listed it as having 226,000 + miles which I felt was wrong by the miles showing. Then it gets better.
I then noticed a sticker on the edge of the driver's door that read "speedometer changed at 325,000+ miles" with 26220 showing on the one presently in the truck.
I could be off more, but 328,000 could seem realistic.

I have to say one thing for these guys in that they don't bother me when I look at the truck. I have been up there twice, drove it in the yard on the road including 70mph on the highway. I didn't drive it 30 miles(about 7miles) but I let it idle a long time first. Checked the oil when it was cold and started it up. I just showed up with out warning them I was coming and although he talks to me at times I have rarely seen him.
I can cover that hose leading from the valve cover with my hand and feel pressure build up slighly. Exhaust(slight) does exit this hose that points down toward the ground which I assume means exhaust valves leak by. Is this very common? it sounds good to me but is far from new.

The one thing I wasn't impressed with is that although it didn't rap and was quite clean, inside the cab sounds very noisy. Does the 3176B seem more noisy than others cat engines to you?
It is a dump truck so I won't be going cross country, but the noise is not something I would ask in pray for either. LOL
The doghouse on this truck does not extend very far into the cab. Maybe the cab design itself is just noisy and the compressor makes a decent contribution here.

Would I have to go directly to Cat for this Gear?
Should I look for an updated compressor? AND Last but not least roughly what am I looking at for money if I buy a reman compressor and new gear?
Too bad the spline & gear wears out like they do on this motor.

Next victim is the 2nd truck. It is 2003 Sterling LA9513 with air bag suspension unlike the other truck that is leaf spring.
It has a 355/410HP motor with a 7 speed transmission. Obviously it is quite a bit newer but was owned by Conway Freight and has 730,000 and another 850,000 miles.

I realize that you can only express an opinion based on what I told you about these trucks, but it may give me some food for thought.
I am curious as to which way you would lean and why.
What could I replace the 3176B motor with If say I couldn't find one? ( attempt to place a C!2 in it, EC<M and all perhaps) or c10
The fact that it is a legacy motor seems like it complicates things that much more.

I am of the opinion that you are no average mechanic. I have looked for your responses and think that you are as straight a shooter as anyone on this net.
It appears to me that you really engross yourself with your job and in seeking knowledge and that's what makes anyone a cut above many others that are content with being average.
You also express yourself well, and although their are quite a few knowledgeable people and good people on this forum you are without a doubt one of them.
I really like this forum, and I don't work on trucks for a living.
I have changed many a motor in a car having to be neat and organized as I switched CUT wire harnesses over from ones that would have otherwise been fine, but I have only rebuilt one motor years ago.
Ignition-wise I was good because I had worked in electronics years ago. I have met far sharper guys but given my background could see where and when and why coil energy is produced. When it comes to any form of diagnoses equipment from scopes to analyzers and meters it is not foreign to me. Even the injection system on cars like the 4 cyl honda that changes cam timing and duration through solenoids utilizing oil pressure necessitates a person to put their nose in a book. Things were much more simplistic before the EPA got involved as well.

This forum is great because it can definitely point people in the right direction. Why re-invent the wheel? Why not capitalize on someone's willingness to share with you what NOT TO DO because he found out the hard way, I liked your troubleshooting technique when you ran a hose into a jar of water grabbing another gear on a long hill to troubleshoot for a leak.
I enjoy reading it even if I may never have that same scenario.

In closing let me just say that if you don't wish to follow through on giving your opinion, I will respect your feelings.
I know you can't say which truck is better from 2000 miles away (Dartmouth, Massachusetts for me) never having seen it, but I am curious which way you lean as I said, AND why.
****What other CAT engines do you like? The 3208 8 cyl cat isn't probably one of them, but lots has to do with their application.
Mainly keeping in mind Dump truck or tractor applications because this would work well for me.

What do you think about an M-11 Cummins? How about a series 60 11.1 or 12.7? detroit

From my limited background I have to say that caterpillar equipment impresses me. I have run small excavators backhoes and skid steers and like them better.
I have heard that they are far from cheap to work on and I have 0 experience here, but that's today.
The guy that said a CAT water pump cost him $1200 dollars made me shift my weight in the chair, I must admit.
Well you have a fitting name CatGuy and and I will continue to look at your replies.
Thanks again for the info that you have already supplied me with.
Ray Bence Dartmouth, MASSACHUSETTS the other side of the world from Washington. (When you're in Iowa you are closer)
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CATGUY
Posted 12/3/2011 15:28 (#2082580 - in reply to #2082539)
Subject: Re: 3176B 9CK Engine


Iowa

Remember, I only work on engines, not the whole truck.
 I'm not afraid of either truck, even if you had something terrible go wrong with the 3176B, then a C-10 or C-12 would fit right in its place. (basically, same outside dimensions)
I do like the lower mileage of the 3176B, so if the price is right, and you can save back, say $3000, for some possible big repair, then it would work.
 It does sound like you will have a little less Hp with the 3176B verses that C-12 you mentioned = don't know if that you bother you much. Also, some of the oil leaks, that can occur, on the 3176B are just unsightly, not always necessary to repair.

I currently, don't have access to prices for the air compressor or front drive gear, not till Monday(At work). You can just call your local CAT dealer and get that info, too. I don't of any other parts place to buy the gear, other than CAT, But I don't need to look elsewhere ,either.

I'm not around any other engines, so can't give opinions on them, but always hear decent comments about Series 60, and N14.
I like C-15 (year 2000-2002);
3406E (1995-2000; since most of them have had cam changed and improvements, by now); 
C-12 (or C-10) are fine, too (CAT fixed oil leak and seepage areas that can occur on the 3176 engines.)
3406B and C mechanical engines are great, but drivers miss those nice items like cruise and more powerful jakes, on these older engines. 
 

You know people really bad mouth the 3208 engine, but if you talk to some of our school bus companies, they were rather happy with them, they actually kept a few around as their backup, because they will start and run when needed. I do feel, once they increased HP on them too much, it did really lose some reliability.



Ps: Thanks for the serial number, too. I am more comfortable to look up any parts, so I get the right part/price, If you haven't already call your CAT dealer.




Edited by CATGUY 12/3/2011 23:48
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Ray316
Posted 12/4/2011 01:27 (#2083311 - in reply to #2082580)
Subject: Re: 3176B 9CK Engine


Trying not to miss anything with this decision, CatGuy. I wish I had your skills.

I was thinking about the comparison of the 3176B motor as opposed to the C12. I don't see any labeling on the 3176B engine that references Horsepower.
The owner of this truck said the 3176B had 325HP. (I question that.) What range of horsepower did the 3176B come available in from the factory?
As a comparison, what range of horsepower did the C12 engine come in? (This 2003 says 355/410HP but which is it 355HP or 410HP? )

Now, between the 3176B and the C12 how much "TORQUE" difference is there between the two engines keeping in mind the 3176B is 1995/96 and the C12 is in a 2003 model ?

Last few questions is that I know that you like the C12 engine better than the older 3176B. Would you go as far as to say that the C12 is a "MUCH" "MUCH"better engine than the 3176B engine?

Where would you go to buy another air compressor if YOU bought the truck with the 3176B engine? I think they make upgraded/modified reman compressors or a bone yard is possible but scary

How would I adjust the 135psi pressure that this compressor is now set for, and I wonder why they set it so high?????>>> >>> to MASK or offset another problem maybe?

*****ONE more thing I can tell you about this 3176B engine is that when I turn the engine off it shakes the truck "A LOT" as it stops. Does that mean anything to you?
RAY
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CATGUY
Posted 12/4/2011 11:26 (#2083706 - in reply to #2083311)
Subject: Re: 3176B 9CK Engine


Iowa

That 3176B engine(9CK24089) left the factory at 300 HP at 1800 rpm, BUT the owner may have had it uprated to a higher HP.

3176B models can go to 365 HP, BUT may require turbo, injector, and software changes

C-12 models can go has high as 430 HP

That C-12 355/410 is a "multi-torque" rating(MT). There are multi-torque 1,2, and a 4 . (thus i don't know what is programmed into it) What that means, is when the truck is driving in the top gear = it is a 410 hp, but 355 hp in all other lower gears ( this would be considered multi-torque 1=MT 1)
Then MT 2 = top 2 gears = 410 hp
Then MT 4 = top 4 gears = 410 hp.

C-12 models can go 1650 ft lbs of torque at their highest level
3176B models can go to 1350 ft lbs.  [Note: all these changes require more money! on either engine]


The nicer items of the C-12 engine;
 are they basically cured the oil leak at the front cover, the engine block is solid cast iron verses that alum. spacer deck= less oil leaks,
 the very last/later C-12 CAT actually added more cast iron to the head and the block (at the head gasket area) thus the head gasket had just a little more material to crush(=takes a different gasket)
The cylinder head injector sleeves, in the C-12, are more robust; They don't use copper sleeves, like the older 3176 engines.
The joint between water pump and oil cooler is improved, with the C-12, but 3176 can be updated.

I only know to buy CAT parts for the air compressor, don't know of any aftermarket "improved" air compressor. We only use CAT parts.

135 psi, isn't terrible, but on the air governor, there is a black cap, to remove, then loosen jam nut, turn screw to lower/increase pressure, then retighten the jam nut.

I would check engine/OEM motor mounts. for that shaking you descibed(may be worn out or loose)



 



Edited by CATGUY 12/4/2011 11:27
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Ray316
Posted 12/5/2011 06:03 (#2085159 - in reply to #2083706)
Subject: Re: 3176B 9CK Engine


Wow, that was a great explanation!

I feel I have a much better knowledge base with which to make a decision.
In reference to the shaking of the engine ON SHUTDOWN, I can honestly say that the motor mounts being bad or loose never occurred to me.
In a car, for example, I have changed many a motor mount. The symptoms that led to their replacement were usually the feeling of engine movement on acceleration, and which motor mount was
a function of whether you were in drive or reverse since torque on the engine is reversed. A diesel seems to give you more of a shaking feeling on shutdown than a gas engine. I did not notice any motor mount problems when driving the truck, but I sure will take a look now!

Turning our attention to the MT=Multi Torque area of discussion, something did come to mind when a mechanic was talking about the Horsepower of a Detroit 11.1 series 60 diesel and it's 365HP.
He said something to the effect that it only produced that higher HP when the cruise control was being used. I do not know if this is correct so don't quote me on that, but he never said that it varied as a
function of what gear you were in as with the C12 cat.

Now, thinking about the straight 7 speed transmission that is mated to the C12 as opposed to the 9 speed RoadRanger that's with the 3176B, I think that both combinations are fine.
Maybe the 7 speed can take the varying torque and HP better than a RoadRanger and even if this is not true, the 9 speed RR is really an 8 speed when you don't use the lowest gear which I think of as LL.
The 10 speed RR is closer to a 9 speed if you think of it's first gear as being a LL, and I see both out there.

Any comment on a 7 speed transmission versus a 9 or 10 speed RoadRanger. Until you get into 13, 15, or 18 speed RR you do not have 1/2 gear shifts or "overdrive" gears either. If you have any comment on any of these combinations and what you would look for or avoid, i would be interested. I know you said you only work on engines, however, you may still have an opinion about them even though you do not overhaul them on a regular basis. I am always interested in your opinion CatGuy, and if you went to buy a tractor or truck, I bet you would be surprised at what you have heard and know, just by virtue of being a professional mechanic.

I find myself leaning toward the 2003 Sterling (Ford) as opposed to the 96 Ford mainly because of RESALE Value 5 or 6 years down the line and to a lessor degree parts availability.
The first truck is about $4500which is short money and pretty clean with plenty of noise, the 2nd truck(2003 Sterling) will start off costing me about $9,000 but is 1500 miles away which I looked at while visiting my son. It will cost me another $1200 to fly down and drive it back. Final cost up to this point is $10,200 for a 7 year newer truck 2003 vs 1996.

One way to "address" the 730,000 miles this truck has on it MAY be to try and do an oil sample on it IF they would allow that. If they woudn't do it or allow it, I am not obligated to buy the truck either.
The only problem with the idea of an engine oil sample is that it looked like the oil was changed not that long ago.
HOW LONG WOULD THE OIL HAVE TO BE RUN (in approximate hours) for the oil sample to be able to accurately REFLECT the overall condition of this C12 engine would you think? The length of time
the engine oil had to circulate in the engine, I would think, has to be a factor in an engine oil analysis which I have heard is very telling.
I could likewise do this on the 3176B CAT but it is expensive most likely. Probably a few hundered bucks.

Once again any comments you have CatGuy are appreciated.
I know this information won't make me a professional mechanic, but it sure adds to my knowledge base and makes me more comfortable in my decision.

If this C12 engine needed a rebuild 100,000 miles up the line and there had been no catastrophe such as badly scored cylinders (although in these engines the might have sleeves) what would be a fair expectation of the COST OF AN AVERAGE REBUILD ON THE 2003 355/410HP C!2 engine? (I don't have serial # for any more info for you)
Again, I know this figure that you shoot me depends on many factors, but an approximation even the minimum, average, to the max is fine if you prefer to break it down that way

The other expense for the 96 Ford is already known, and that is it needs an air compressor and Gear. The compressor is probably rebuild-able, but the compressor shaft that meshes with the gear in the engine is what is mainly suspect with the noise. I see a bearing on what looks to be on both sides of that compressor gear in the drawings that you sent me. I don't know what holda the gear in place or how difficult it is to remove. Even though I may only have to remove the front cover and not the housing the cost of this compressor from Cat may be over $2000 so here is another factor, and the gear must be over $100.
I now have to add $2100 to the 96 Ford 3176B which HAS to be done.

I am still interested to know now are aware of the prices of the trucks which one You yourself would buy. You are in a position to knock a job like this compressor off and casually drink your coffee. I believe I can do it but lets just say I'll be a lot less relaxed about it than you. LOL

In some ways I do like the 96 Ford, but it can be thought of like realestate in that there are some things that you cannot change. For realestate it is the location, and for cars and trucks, it is the year.
Having said that, I realize I can't change the mileage either, but as you pointed out,...not all mileage is the same. Was it all 1/4 mile stop and start runs, or was it cross country where the engine runs and idles for hours, resulting in less wear and tear.

Overall (all things considered) which way do you lean NOW and why.
One last comment,....I like you to see the way I am thinking even if it is flawed. The more I can tell you about the truck and its location and the bottom line the better it is when it comes to advice of opinion. The decision has to be mine, but I still like to hear how you view all the information and how you would think.

If I had to replace the 3176B CAT, you have told me that they are the same physical size as the C12.
My question is that will the ECM come with a salvage engine?
My guess is that the 3176B ECM won't do me any good, so what will it cost for me to GET an ECM suitable for the C12 or can I just reprogram mine, which I am inclined to say no.
IF AFTER I get an ECM for this C12 replacement of the 3176B, would I have to start changing out the wire harnesses both on the engine and in the Cab of the truck?

Even if I NEVER do this with the 3176B, it would be nice to know for informational purposes and I bet you have already done such a conversion.
Assume for the moment that I can handle this myself(no labor cost) what could I expect to spend????
In cars its not fun once the ECM computer and wiring harnesses are involved.

Thanks again CatGuy. Maybe you could just start a column in a Truck Paper or newsletter. Ever thought about that??
I'd be a faithful follower. That's one reader already that you will have... LOL.
You make the dialogue interesting, and that's what it takes to capture readers and it's JUST A THOUGHT.
RAY







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Ray316
Posted 12/6/2011 19:26 (#2088303 - in reply to #2083706)
Subject: Re: 3176B 9CK Engine


In my quest to make the correct decision I have been shopping around for insurance to see which truck would be the LEAST costly to insure.
Which truck do you think was the cheapest to insure, CatGuy?
Would you think there would be much of a difference in insurance given their specs, or would there be out there in Washington state.?

I know you work on them but I never asked If you had at any point owned any type of truck like this.
Ray
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rpeck4010
Posted 1/10/2021 13:37 (#8739734 - in reply to #2081385)
Subject: RE: 3176B 9CK Engine


Hello, will a bad drive gear make a rattling sound when the compressor is building air but stop once it reaches pressure and cuts out?
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