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Blue Earth, MN | 2 different fields we have picked in the last 4 days. The first was split planter DKC48-12 smartstack and DKC44-92. First year corn on corn environment, strip till, 1/2 rate insecticide in furrow, good fertility. The 44-92 had a yield of 208 dry bushels, and the 48-12 had a yield of 203. I though was just a fluke and would probably be classified as "statistically insignificant". However, I haven't been able to come up with a good excuse for the justification of +50 dollars per acre of extra seed cost.
Second strike came last night. Was watching the combine pick corn (I was watching from grain cart tractor) and though "this is tremendous corn". Upon downloading data to computer, it was determined the "tremendous corn" was 44-92. This time up against 51-85. 44-92 had an average yield of 204 dry BPA. The 51-85 had an average yield of 184. Side by sides and replicated.
I've had it with traited corn. Proof is in the puddin!
EDIT:
I've got a good feeling I know when the 3rd strike is coming...our 52-62 looks aweful good!!! Hate to see that spank 53-78! That will be embarrassing!
It's all about the insecticide. Go Iron Fist!
EDIT 2:
We had 44-92 last year by itself and it yielded 231 bpa with a 1/2 rate of infurrow insecticide and a 1/2 rate of aerial insecticide. Some of the best corn we've ever harvested in terms of stalk quality.
Edit 3:
DeKalb dealers feel free to blast away!
Edited by scmn_06 9/29/2011 03:10
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NW central IL | atleast around here. i agree with your post, but its been a few years since we had a dry spring. in the past i learned the insecticide needs the rains to "activate". without such rains i see 15-30 bu difference going to the triple stack corns. that said, ive tried 2 new triple pro corns that will never be back on this farm. i think they may have some issues with there newer stacks, or maybe the base genetics just suck on them. |
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| Which two, if you don't mind sharing? 58-83 and 64-69 are on the list NOT to plant next year, here... |
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| 58-83 here, and 62-97 seems to have alot of variability. Too bad they won't give us choice and let us plant the non gmo of 61-19 and others. |
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Purdueville, IL | What people fail to realize is the benefit of a large area planting these Bt crops.
If 10-15 years ago we had a drought like we had in east central Illinois this summer, the rootworm beetles would have annihilated the roots, then chewed off all of the silks causing massive pollination problems, then European Corn Borer would have chewed into the stalks and ears causing stalk breakage and ear loss.
Not disputing your findings....but I, for one, am glad that these products have beens used over such a large scale the last 10 years to lower the populations of these pests. Most everyone planting them has resulted in less headaches for everyone. And less insecticide use. IMHO |
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North of Iowa | 51-85 does not look like it took the heat very well, does have a so so drought rating. |
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Martinsville, Ohio | It never did pay for me. I don't like all the research going to traits and not the pedigree itself.
Ed |
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North Liberty and South Bend, Indiana | Why were the two numbers never the same? What I mean is why didn't you plant the same number in its conventional form and stacked form? Can you not get the two forms? Unfortunately using two different numbers won't give accurate results on the traits. However, I agree that is enough spread to not plant stacked versions too heavily next year! |
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Chebanse, IL..... | I agree on overall benefit of Bt, or triple stacks. We certainly cannot deny the unbelievable fall of CRW larvae & beetle populations & damage here in NE IL. Both were ravaging just a few years ago even while granular & liquid insectides, both pre & post plant, were in everyone's annual corn protection plan. Insecticide rates were even illegally increased by 125%+ by some low-life farmers that found that labelled rates weren't doing the job, for whatever reason.
But now, the CRW larvae & beetle infestation has subsided, or died in many regional situations. I understand there are some areas that have seen activity this year, but not sure of final analysis yet of that surprise. Maybe there's more to that story. But, the point is, we all (well, those of us growing more than 20 yrs or so....) know that granulars will not do the job. I believe we have the exact same products for the granular (liquid market died) that we had 10-15 yrs ago, though some products have changed ownership & label rates (see low-life farmer referral above). |
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Chebanse, IL..... | EdW
The local (NE IL) folks that I personally know that grow/develop isolines (not for any particular mfg) of seed corn tell me that ALL seed corns start out as pure non-gmo and are selected per traits exhibited in that state of physiology. The gmo characteristics are added after the isoline is selected. This was explained to me as I stood in the middle of in excess of 1000 experimental & tested isolines in the midst of a commercial corn field in July, 2011....locally. Again, that's here. Not sure about other areas.
Does that differ with your conception? |
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NW Ohio | wow this could get ugly but here we go. I have to agree with a less than impressed feeling with triple stax or traited corn in general. Here on the east edge of the corn belt we've been seeing these same results for the past 4 or 5 years. I'm saying that traits haven't made us money in the past but the fact is if you had the ability to look back @ 10 years of side by sides I don't think the traits were worth it. We have conv. corn here every year with in 8-10 bu. of the traits and in some years we've seen them better. Since all R&D has been put into traits the last 10 yrs. I have to wonder if the same amount of effort was put into conv. corn where we would be. It is hard to do a true side by side because most companies don't carry the same hybrid in a conv. and a stack so you can't get real numbers. We don't apply insecticide here as part of a normal plan we just don't get the insect pressure to justify blindly applying it. That being said we also don't run corn back to corn. Those who do I understand are at a greater risk and should use insecticide. I feel that our conv. corn has been taken from us and traits forced on us. I know Agrigold has made "some" effort to bring new conv. corns in but even at that choices are limited. With corn prices in a free fall and projected seed costs up I don't know if I can continue buying exspensive corn as insurance I'm not convinced I need. By Pro Scout's comment it seems like as long as the neighbors are planting it I don't have to. Sorry to pick on you Scout I know what your saying and I think your right to a certain extent. The other thing we need to remember is that we were all sold a bag of misinformation when traits hit the market. We were led to believe it was a cure all. Plant traits and sleep good at night, BS. Like conv. hybrids not all traited hybrids are winners. Some just plain suck. Some are very good corns but there conv. versions are most likely good corn also. Some areas of the country has benifited greatly from traits others like us saw a couple years of improved yields and then the pressure went away and now we're just paying to much for seed. If we all go back to conv. corn will the bugs come back, and how long will it take. I may be able to answer that in a few years, most guys around here that were 100% traited corn are now only 50% or less and dropping more every year. Time will tell if were riht or wrong. Good luck making your own decisions
Just a new thought maybe traited corn should be a every other year or every three year rotation for us that might help keep numbers down and be more economical. I think hte triats do work I just don't think there necessary every year.
Edited by jd 9760 9/29/2011 08:16
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| I am of the belief, that if you don't have the pest's that the particular trait protects against, the trait inserted into the plant has a negative effect on the plants ability to yield. In our area all we need is protection against cutworm and corn borer. Having extra traits will only reduce our yield potential. It appears Pioneer is begining to offer more straight Hx varieties again. That should be a bonus for us. Planting VT and Hxx corns aren't necessary. I am looking into planting a lower percentage of traited corns and more straight RR varieties. |
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| i'v been leaning toward non gmo until this year when we've had 4 different numbers attacked by wbc and the ss right next to them are perfect. i thought the seed companies were pushing that down our throats and now i am thankful we have another tool to combat them. eating crow on a regular basis |
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NW Iowa | scmn_06 - 9/29/2011 02:54
2 different fields we have picked in the last 4 days. The first was split planter DKC48-12 smartstack and DKC44-92. First year corn on corn environment, strip till, 1/2 rate insecticide in furrow, good fertility. The 44-92 had a yield of 208 dry bushels, and the 48-12 had a yield of 203. I though was just a fluke and would probably be classified as "statistically insignificant". However, I haven't been able to come up with a good excuse for the justification of +50 dollars per acre of extra seed cost.
Second strike came last night. Was watching the combine pick corn (I was watching from grain cart tractor) and though "this is tremendous corn". Upon downloading data to computer, it was determined the "tremendous corn" was 44-92. This time up against 51-85. 44-92 had an average yield of 204 dry BPA. The 51-85 had an average yield of 184. Side by sides and replicated.
I've had it with traited corn. Proof is in the puddin!
EDIT:
I've got a good feeling I know when the 3rd strike is coming...our 52-62 looks aweful good!!! Hate to see that spank 53-78! That will be embarrassing!
It's all about the insecticide. Go Iron Fist!
EDIT 2:
We had 44-92 last year by itself and it yielded 231 bpa with a 1/2 rate of infurrow insecticide and a 1/2 rate of aerial insecticide. Some of the best corn we've ever harvested in terms of stalk quality.
Edit 3:
DeKalb dealers feel free to blast away!
It is what it is and 44-92 and 52-62 are excellent hybrids. Did you get any 48-40? I have seen the opposite with 55-08 verses 55-09. Do you have any 52-62 verses 52-59, or 46-61 verses 44-92? |
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West Michigan | I agree with the fact that the traits do not pay. Been on the soap box for that cause for a while. But what you did was compare apples to oranges. What you did doesn't tell you anything. You needed to do a side by side with 46-61 next to 44-92. Those would be the same genetics. Whats to say that 46-61 wouldn't have been 10 bushel more than the 44-92. Need to compare same genetics in a side by side when you want to know if traits are paying there way.
Put a few of these in next year
44-92 vs 46-61
45-82 vs. 45-79
48-40 vs. 48-37
50-47 vs. 53-45
52-62 vs. 52-61 vs. 52-59
55-08 vs. 55-09
Edited by steveMIfarmer 9/29/2011 09:51
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Roanoke, IN | Pay the big price for RIB next year and then you won't know any different! Why do you think they're pushing it so hard? Because you will make more or they will make more? |
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Niagara County Western NY | I have 44-92 comparing to 46-61. We are still a month away, but right now looks like the 46-61 is more impressive than the 44-92. Also have 38-92 vs 38-89, both look pretty similar. Will know more in a month. |
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West Michigan | Report back when you take those sidexsides off. Those are some good comparisions. We are at least a month away from doing any corn here as well. |
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Ilderton, Ontario | Boy, are you ever cynical. I have been at several grower meetings and the "reason" they are bringing RIB is because "WE" the growers have been asking for it. They also tell me there is value to the traits....why don't you just believe them? |
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Amherst WI | OntariOtis - 9/29/2011 08:13
Boy, are you ever cynical. I have been at several grower meetings and the "reason" they are bringing RIB is because "WE" the growers have been asking for it. They also tell me there is value to the traits....why don't you just believe them?
I would bet that over 50% of "WE" aren't complying to the refuge rules correctly either, espically when you dont grow 80-20 traited corn and refuge. I grow closer to 50-50 or 60-40 and I have a heck of a time trying to get the right amount of refuge in the field. RIB will make things alot simpler and I know you can get the conventional all the way up to the RIB SS in some cases.
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North Central Ohio, across the Corn belt ! | Bengal Stripes - 9/29/2011 08:18 I am of the belief, that if you don't have the pest's that the particular trait protects against, the trait inserted into the plant has a negative effect on the plants ability to yield. In our area all we need is protection against cutworm and corn borer. Having extra traits will only reduce our yield potential. It appears Pioneer is begining to offer more straight Hx varieties again. That should be a bonus for us. Planting VT and Hxx corns aren't necessary. I am looking into planting a lower percentage of traited corns and more straight RR varieties. correct |
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North Central Ohio, across the Corn belt ! | OntariOtis - 9/29/2011 09:13 Boy, are you ever cynical. I have been at several grower meetings and the "reason" they are bringing RIB is because "WE" the growers have been asking for it. They also tell me there is value to the traits....why don't you just believe them? yes, there has always been a claim of, value from the traits. they just never tell you whom the, value benefits. ( the shareholders ) Only |
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Ilderton, Ontario | I guess if you are using a central fill it may be difficult, but at only 50% how could it be difficult to get refuge in the correct places. We typically split the planter...usually with 4 units of traited and 8 of untraited. Seldom, but not usually, we may have the planter full of Bt, but it only plants 30 acres, then refuge will be put in, either in all or some units. This approach could be used with a central fill also. At close to $100/bag, I'm willing to do a little extra management. |
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Eastern Half of Kansas | Looks like to me, it could be a difference in maturities. The one winning is 94 day. The other two are 98 and 101 day maturities. Atleast that is how it works down here, depends on weather at pollation(sp). |
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| Conventional corn = Caveat Emptor |
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| I would never go back to an all conventional system. I have really liked the Bt technologies and have seen increased yields because of them. I live in NE Iowa, which is a big corn on corn area and root worm haven. The smart stax varieties we have planted in this area (55-08, 53-78 and 51-85 mostly) yielded good last year and look good this year. And more importantly they have stood where other technologies fell down in the past.
I think Smart Stax is a great technology. Mixed in with VT3 or Tripe pro numbers where root worm pressure is less has made a great corn program here. |
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Eastern Ont | PRO SCOUT - 9/29/2011 07:37
What people fail to realize is the benefit of a large area planting these Bt crops.
If 10-15 years ago we had a drought like we had in east central Illinois this summer, the rootworm beetles would have annihilated the roots, then chewed off all of the silks causing massive pollination problems, then European Corn Borer would have chewed into the stalks and ears causing stalk breakage and ear loss.
Not disputing your findings....but I, for one, am glad that these products have beens used over such a large scale the last 10 years to lower the populations of these pests. Most everyone planting them has resulted in less headaches for everyone. And less insecticide use. IMHO I dont think it has lowered the populations at all It is amazing what happens if you have a crop rotation, if you rotate out of corn even for one year Been growing non gmo varieties for 3 years now with no problems Neighbour field 3rd year continuous corn, had root worm problems, go figure I guess maybe continous corn in itself is its own enemy. Flame away |
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Eastern Ont | IMHO
The RIB is only going to make the bugs become more tolerant faster. I guess you guys that couldnt conform to the rules of refuge The neighbours planted it syndrome got the compromise.
I guess it will sell more non gmo hybrids and the companies can DUMP what ever they want in the bag. You will never know what is in it. The company with the cheapest corn seed, or leftover seed from last year ( the bugs will eat that first dont you know) will sell the most.
Edited by ayrporte 9/29/2011 23:18
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Chebanse, IL..... | I won't flame, I'll just tell how it used to be here. We were on 50/50 rotation. We planted all non-gmo...that's all there was. CRW ran rampant. Sometimes granulars worked, sometimes not. CRW larvae actually developed worse in 1st yr corn following sb. That was well-known documented phenominon. Then you'd hit those little golden-yellow, striped bugs (aka CRW beetles) all summer long following silking. I used to fly a lot & was amazed how bad the plane's leading edges & windshields would get w/CRW beetles in the summer. We'd hit them all the way up to 14-15,000' or more. They'd ride the air currents up....and across the country.
That was then. |
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Eastern Ont | Have the beetles disappeared or are they still there???
Did the CRW eat the beans????. We have some neighbours that are 4-5 years continous beans.
Ron I guess we are lucky here We have a dairy operation where we do corn bean rotation for 4 years then grain underseeded into an alfalfa/grasss mix corn borer,corn root worm has been a non issue.
We have even gone as far as growing open pollinated corn for silage. Works for us, when you have a stalk the size of your wrist it takes a corn borer a long time to eat it up . It just cant eat that much
If you can justify the traited corn then by all means go fo it
My self $120/acre seed corn or $36/acre seed corn both gives me the same yield I stick with the Non GMO |
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Central Missouri | just remember, it takes more horsepower to run the chopper on your combine. it takes more energy for a plant to work with 8 traits in smart stack. that energy is not going to yield. sorry monsanto and dow |
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Purdueville, IL | sorry, but NW Ohio does not =Northern Ford County, ECIL, where the variant of the western corn rootworm first decided to lay its eggs in soybean fields, not corn fields! How do you know what we went through? We had a problem, everyone put insecticide down (lorsban) it became resistannt to lorsban, then yada yada...we are here now. I made a statement about how it helped our local problem....and it did. PERIOD
Edited by PRO SCOUT 9/30/2011 00:15
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Purdueville, IL | Western rootworm beetles now appear at the end of the season, well after pollination, in much lower numbers....instead of thousands flying around there are hundreds....FYI
EDIT-By the way, being in Canada and not thinking you can develop resistance that far north....be ready...
Edited by PRO SCOUT 9/30/2011 00:20
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| I say give me more traits, give me drought tolerance, give me nitrogen utilization traits, bring on the herbicide tolerant traits. And when it really comes down to genetics, I believe syngenta, monsanto, dow, pioneer are all going to put their traits in their absolute best genetics possible, not the old conventional that yields well in the right perfect growing atmosphere. |
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Chebanse, IL..... | Ayrporte
The universities studied the variant beetles laying eggs in the soybeans. Those beetles hatched out of nearby corn fields. They have to have corn roots to survive as larvae. Then of course, they stayed in the corn & started chewing the silks. Then, when it was egg-laying time they would move to the adjoining soybean fields & lay eggs. The beetles had discovered that "secret" of rotation. We saw it happen & couldn't figure it out for a while. I remember disctinctly the couple of years when the phenominon first started occuring. We had chemical reps out looking at our corn. Most said we had Banvel damage to our corn (bowed plants) since we were using more Banvel back in those days. But anyway, universities found the beetles would occasionally chew on bean leaves, but not often. The corn silk was still the soup du jour of their appetite. They would travel back to the corn field to eat.
My point is, it doesn't work to just say "oh, just do this & this & you won't have any trouble....you're causing your own trouble and I won't have any trouble because....". That is wrong. Actually, we (& universities) found there was less root feeding on multi-year corn. The 1st yr corn suffered the most root & subsequent silk damage from CRW. I suppose you are right that if we grew no corn then CRW would leave here also.
I won't say I didn't see any CRW beetles this year (2011). I saw maybe 5 beetles in total and I watch for them. I especially watch for them as we travel around the state (IL) in the summer. It's not hard to spot where they were flying, if they existed at all. We used to see 10-15 per silk. What would you think has changed their population so dramatically in the last 5 years? We saw the same situation in 2009 & 10. Maybe they'll come back...but they haven't yet. |
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SC- Minnesota | +1. I've had 2 different seed company's tell me this.
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North Central Iowa | must be the differences in the country. In north iowa we are growing lots of corn and between diapause rootworm ( northerns) and the buildup of westerns in the continuios corn. You are foolish to plant non traited corn without full load of insecticide, VT3 will not hold in multi year coc. we have had diapause Rootworm problems since the mid 80's here, long before traited corn. Smartstak corn does seem to hold up to the pressure for now. and yes there is almost always a slight change in the hybrid when a trait is inserted but I have seen it work both ways in the past where the traited was hands down a better hybrid too. |
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NW Ohio | Scout, I wasn't diagreeing with you and what you are saying is true. Ohio is not IL that is very true. We don't have the same soil or the same growing season so we most likely don't have the same pest levels you do. I also said that that traits work very well in some parts of the country but for us the yield advantage ran out about 5 years ago. I'm not telling anyone not to plant traits. I will still plant some my self next year. For those of you who get real value out of planting traited corn, by all means keep planting it. I think theres a good chance that because of all the traits you boys to the west of us plant we have seen less of these insects. You kill 'em and they can't fly east sounds good to me. I guess my comment was meant to thank you for helping stop the problem before it gets here. If you continue to use all this tech. then maybe I won't have to use it as much. Thats all I meant. Keep doing what your doing. Do what works for you. It's been proven many times, that what works here may not apply there or anywhere. I don't know what your farms aph is but around here we run in the 150's for the most part not 190's or 200's. We are just look for ways to cut costs and right now traits are the easiest thing for us to cut. Five years from now if or when the bugs come back so will the traits. Like I said not a total abandunment of tech. Just a slow down in it's use. |
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Eastern Ont | Thanks for the explanation Ron
That makes a lot of sense.Hope fully we can benifit from those problems.
Is the RW and going through a cylce by chance or is it every year?
Was not trying to be smug, I think that the companies have being putting" all their eggs in one basket" with this GMO breeding and not thinking outside the box.
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Ilderton, Ontario | Great explanation for us guys that haven't experienced the variant. We haven't seen this here "yet", although since lots of us in this area are into a 3 crop rotation maybe the varient is here?? If it is laying in eggs in soys, but emerging in wheat... I realize for you that wheat isn't economical, but has anyone tried to break the varient cycle by growing wheat between the soys and corn? |
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Dekalb Traited corn--I've had it!
