|
|
| I was at a field day meeting yesterday and finally got to drive a JD IVT with an implement. Being an AGCO dealer I knew what we could do in the field. I was extremely shocked at the difference. This isn't a bashing session but it a firsthand expierence. There is no comparison in technology. I seen cutaways of design and in the field performance was both very amazing. If you ever get the chance to put the CVT and IVT in the field where you can pull a load, I highly recommend it. Previously I could not understand why some of the talk here by JD owners why they choose the older technology transmissions like powershifts and gear transmissions when doing tillage. Now I do. |
|
| |
|
| your thoughts on the cvt repair cost. since it has a lot fewer componets, do you think the upkeep cost of a cvt will be less then a powershift, also what brand preference do you have between the fendt and the agco. agco might be cheaper on upkeep, since maybe a few less options and more common parts. thoughts on the life of the front and rear suspension in the agco. |
|
| |
|
southeast Washington | My dealer was down there and I can't wait to see what he has to say.My next tractor is going to be a 8480 Massey and retire one of my 4880's.He was going to check out the red version of those tractors. |
|
| |
|
Guelph, Ontario | Sorry, I couldn't tell if you liked the IVT or not. We have a 7820 and a 7920 which have replaced a 4450 (ps), a 7800 (ps), a 7810 (pq), and a 7820 (aq) over the years and we think that the IVT is by far the best tractor for pto and tillage work. No need to worry about gears just drive it. What about the Agco transmisson is better than the IVT? No including top speed. |
|
| |
|
| First we an AGCO brand dealer only so I can't say much about the maintenance cost between fendt and AGCO but I can tell you this. They announced that AGCO has sold over 70,000 CVT Tractors and are in the field. Everyone I talk with from the sales to the service guys say reliability is amazing! We have not any problems with out AGCOs. The principal is so simple in the AGCO - no clutches or clutch paks, oil heating is not an issue - look at the size of the oil cooler, self contained oil system for the CVT. I could go on. I hate to bash another product but the IVT acts more like a Powershift (Must be the clutch paks in the transmission) than the CVT when in the field with the same implement. When I tried to drive the IVT like we drive the AGCO CVT it was extremely unsatisfactory to me. JMHO. The tractor pulled down badly, buzzers and beepers started going off all over the cab. You can't take off with a load like the AGCO did. It sure made me prouder to be selling the CVT with the few test I tried to perform and seen. Again the two tractors were as identical as possible an AGCO RT155A ballast to recommended specs from the operators manual, proper tire inflation (Michelin Man was there), at rated RPMS, with exact depth with Sunflower disc chisel and at the same field speed. The IVT was a 7830 both tier 3 engines within 3 HP. It was a very equal test in my opinion. But don't let my opinion persway you, you need to get in both tractors in the field and demo to see the difference for yourself. IMO there is no comparison in technology and performance. |
|
| |
|
NE SD | Maybe we should invite Deere on here to bash Agco's long standing rock solid stability as a company, or maybe about their overpriced parts, lack of dealerships, service, etc.? |
|
| |
|
| My 2005 John Deere 7220 didn't quite make 10000 hours untouched. The shuttle shift would not stay in reverse so they split it to put a 20 dollar gasket in the transmission. It did make it to 350 hours though so I shouldn't complain I guess!! |
|
| |
|
Pasco WA. | They all have their faults and break. The big question is who will get you back going soon, and who will be able to do so 20 years from now? |
|
| |
|
NC KS | There was something that needed calibrated if the trannys shifted that rough. Most everybody with an open mind said that series of tractors you talk about shifted smoother than the 8000 series Deeres which were newer. BTW, that tranny you complained about, was built in a Deere factory (51% ownership, part of the reason Agco runs the CVT in everything now, so they could control quality and engineering).
Deere has put out more failures than any other company. They just turn their failures into marketing tools, (time to trade, combine upgrade programs, etc).
|
|
| |
|
| You are certainly full of it, agcodealer. I have ran IVT equipped tractors for four years now, and havn't experienced jerking, buzzer's going off, or the tractor pulling down. Have pushed into a pile of dirt many times, and the tractor has spun out, with none of those reactions. I start a 18,000 lb. sprayer load in soft fields as smooth as butter with my little 125 horse tractor. If you can't learn how to run it, I have a thirteen year old kid that can show you how. |
|
| |
|
Chebanse, IL..... | I read on here the biggest question may be the overall efficiency of the JD CVT vs PS. I guess I haven't seen many complain about the operation. So-how does MF/Agco view fuel efficiency of IVT vs their PS? I'm not saying that's a determining factor for everyone, I'm just saying that seems to be the bulk of controversy here. 70,000 tractors of one type transmission from one mfg is a LOT!! How do they get those numbers? We've demo'd a JD CVT a couple times & I guess we didn't see the problems you mention. They were an 8x30 series though. We used them in tillage & lighter work. Whose engine is the MF using now in that series? |
|
| |
|
Janesville Ca, 96114 | Mr Agco Dealer, As a constant observer to this forum I feel the need to respond to your post. I willing admit I bleed green. But I also own a red tractor. I have to ask why would you even post such a bias post in the first place? Being a Agco Dealer you would be shooting your self in the foot if you even thought Deere has a better tractor. I am though however, glad you are Agco dealer because compettition is what makes the world go around. I feel sorry for the lesser brand dealers other than Deere because they seem to get blind sided every year by corporate big wigs that seem to not have the best interest of the fewer and fewer farmers in the North American market. I was recently at the World Ag Expo in Tulare and watch my local dealers complain to the big wigs at CNH that dropping the 3 twine baler was a mistake. Leaving them with nothing to sell in a small market. I just hope you don't lose hope and keep drinking the Agco flavored kool-aid no matter how sour it is. Big Green Grin Jeff Outwest |
|
| |
|
Elmira, Ontario | Ron, I'm not sure if this is a complete answer to your question, but Agcodealer has put up some snippets of Nebraska tests that show some efficiency comparisons. Look at Fuel Consumption at Maximum Power from the dealer website linked to by Agcodealer's profile. The chart on that page is taken from various Nebraska tests which I was able to locate, but forget the exact models. I was quite surprised to see a dealer show a chart that shows his product as being the worst in the comparison! edit: I forgot to announce myself as working for a Deere dealer, but also having worked at an Agco dealer in the past. Since this is a biased discussion, I felt I should do so.
Edited by Omar 2/23/2007 20:53
|
|
| |
|
southeast Washington | I talked to my dealer today he was on his way back and was very excited about the cvt in the Masseys.He said the same thing you did about how far behind the Deere was. As far as the comments about your post I could not believe the things these guys said.Your comments were not out of line in any way.You were wanting guys to try the Agco for themselves and see what they think. What I think is there a bunch of two year olds. |
|
| |
|
Southeast Florida | Where did you get that picture of them Deere' at? That looks like how the dealership in S.Fl bring tractors in before cane season starts.
Sorry I'll let you'll get back to your color war now. Personally I don't wan't any of these new tractor after they're 20 year's old with my hired help. |
|
| |
|
Central Iowa | I think we have cabin fever. What a crabby bunch. As a disclaimer, it was suggested that you try each tractor and judge for yourself. I don't see any reason to jump all over him for having an opinion. It seems that everyone else is free to state their opinions here so he should have the same right. I have had great service from my Agco dealers. I wish everyone had the same experience. I can't say about Deere, I don't own any of their brand. I assume the service is very good as well. I happen to run the other brands because they work for me. Those of us that are buying from the other guys keep Deere and Co. from bending you guys over even worse. |
|
| |
|
NC KS | If you own the factory that makes the tranny and have a quality problem, it is really easy to get things fixed and under control. If you don't own it, you have to argue with the manufacturer over whose problem is it and who is going to fix it and who is paying for it. Understand?
If you had 9815's, you happened to choose the only tractor in the White or Allis lineup that was not given a contour frame in 1996 to tighten up the turning radius (due to a cooler on the engine).
Where was your dealer in the overheating issue? I have known such problems to be fixed even after warranty was up.
|
|
| |
|
Meeteetse, Wyoming | This last summer we rented an Agco RT 100 for six months. It had a CVT transmission, and the overall experience was good. The tractor did have problems with overheating. We blew steel hydraulic lines under the cab. It also lost o-rings on fittings under the cab as well. This caused undo down time and duress because we needed the tractor both times it went down. The CVT has many functions that could be confusing to run if you did not take the time to learn how to run it. The overheating bothered us the most. The CVT is great for baling hay though, you can run the engine at lower rpm's and still run the pto at rated speeds. You can also keep the baler full of hay by having the perfect ground speed constantly. The tractors are not built like our deere's though. Everything about them is cheaply built. The interior is far inferior, reliability over 10,000 hours would have you greatly concerned. The IVT on the deere is simpler to run. They are both great transmissions, the IVT or CVT, but just remember that even Agco will only warranty a new tractor for 1 year or 1,000 hours. John Deere has 3 years or 3,000 hours. That right there tells the tale for us in general, even Agco won't stand behind there product as long. Plus the Agco has GPS issues where as our 8X20's with integrated steering work flawlessly with or SF2. |
|
| |
|
NC KS | Slow down there buddy. Agco and Deere have the same basic tractor warranty, 2 years or 2000 hours. Both of them have optional extended warranties. I don't know where you are getting your information but get it straight. If this comes from the deere salesmen's mouth then consider the source.
BTW, to verify this, I merely looked it up on Deere's website. |
|
| |
|
Meeteetse, Wyoming | Our 8520 purchased a little over a year ago has 3 years or 3,000 hours from the date of purchase with no additional warranty purchased. The Agco if we had purchased it the very first day it rolled onto our farm last summer, the warranty was 1 year or 1,000 hours just like the brochure, and I can send a copy to you if you would like. I can not say that Agco has not extended it starting this year but I find it unlikely that they went to 3 years like our deere, and I can not say that you can not get some deere equipment to have that 2 year warranty but as far as ther row crop series ours is 3 years or 3,000 hours. |
|
| |
|
NC KS | I have never known Agco to have a warranty less than 2 years or 2000 hours unless the tractor had been rented a lot. I would guess that your Deere had a special deal put on it by your dealer or Deere for marketing purposes. |
|
| |
|
Meeteetse, Wyoming | I am not saying that this is not true of our deere dealer, but the agco was brand new and the warranty was a major issue for us. We put the first 600 hours on that tractor, it was also one of the first to hit the ground with the sizu engine instead of the cummins and that could have played a role. I am not saying the agco is a bad tractor, we loved the transmission, but we would be hard pressed to buy one instead of a 7X30 or 8X30 deere. I believe in my opinion that as a whole they are built to a higher standard of quality overall. |
|
| |
|
Seneca Kansas 66538 | Sure seems like alot of people on here have a down right bad taste in their mouth over Agco. I definately feel differently since we have had excellent luck with allis-agco products. I do feel like the CVT is just another excellent tool in the agco tool chest. I would like to see it in the challenger track tractors and combines as well someday. |
|
| |
|
NC KS | Maybe I should relate my story when I seen that the light at the end of the tunnel wasn't green.
It was 1975 and we waited 8 months to get our first new Deere tractor. A 4430. Rearend locked up at 1500 hours. Warranty took care of it and dealer claimed that engine had too much power (factory settings on engine). 3000 hours and the rear end locks up again. Dealer says same thing, we pay for it. Tractor went to lighter uses that didn't require full horsepower. In same time period, tractor would overheat in Kansas summers. Dealer has same answer, too much horsepower.
I started to see the light when I got married in 79. FIL had Allis tractors of same horsepower as 4430. Guess what, rearends were twice the size of deere's, must have been directly related to failure rates. Local dealer for them was willing and able to work right beside you to get problems resolved instead of pointing fingers towards smoking guns and flimsy excuses.
And that is all I am going to say about that! |
|
| |
|
Seneca Kansas 66538 | Have never been INTO a rearend or transmission on any of the 7000,8000, or 4w's we have owned. Allis had bullet proof trannys and rears, but the 426 should have stayed in tractors below 170 hp for reliability. We had the 426 in a 7580 and 4w220 and both tractors were great tractors except for the engines. We converted the 4w220 to a 8.3 L cummins and wow thats one awesome tractor now. But will say again, never had a tranny or rear apart on any of them. |
|
| |
|
Somewhereville, Earth | don't think ya started on the right foot with a username like agcodealer on a topic like this
will admit the MF's that i have seen go out are doing well, the 7475 and 7485 i seen come out of our dealer 6 months ago, both done 1000hours
one is had issues with the front suspension controler, other problems with alternator, but really, faultless both IVT, both never own another gear transmission again
saw a fendt in a while ago 6500 hours on a 716, would only go backwards, am told it was a simple fix, she is still running, good potato harvester tractor.....same owner brought a new 926 trading off his old 926 with 5000hours, i think he has a 818 and a raft of NH TM's and 60 series
lots of 7920 ivt here, one is generally not liked.......but they live with it, they brought another so it can't be that bad, another has done 2200 hours pushing silage its whole life with a huge loader and bukerake as wide as the tractor with duals, they shove 6 tonnes at a time with it, loves axle pivot bearings, but they love the tractor, i think they might have just been in the tranny after a failure, apparently its warranty, and a factory update of a weak point, i think they did the 4wd clutch pack last season.....
they also run two CNH CVX's, one as a stack tractor with loader (bit hard on front axles when pushing), and the other as a triple mower combination, they love varios, the CNH one is a complex tractor, but they do well, and there is a lot of them around here, diff with the CNH one is its a 4 gear tractor, were as the JD and AGCO is a 2 spd, people are trading the CVX and buying new ones, so they can't be bad ......can't wait to see a Puma with a vario/CVX tranny in it
|
|
| |
|
Chebanse, IL..... | Where did AGCODEALER guy go? He leaves an IED & leaves? I have legit questions & observations. |
|
| |
|
Fruita CO |
AC must have learned a lesson w/the 190XT-the rear ends in those things damn near broke them around here...I remember being in a 7060? diff. years ago, it was about the same size as a 4020... |
|
| |
|
Fruita CO | I sorta figured that part about not wanting to start a war was BS? |
|
| |
|
Itta Bena Mississippi | They must have that"special deal" in the south too, as every 8xxx tractor I've bought came with a 3-3000. Tom |
|
| |
|
NE SD | out of line. If a guy had come on here with the name "johndeeredealer" and started blasting an agco, cat, caseih, NH, or other product, there would have been an all out attack on him. Period, no questions asked. I've seen it a hundred times when someone here recommends that something green is better. Guys come on here asking specifically about a JD product and nothing about any other brands, and all of the sudden people are telling about how Cat, Case, etc. is so much better. If JD guy did that to one of the brand X threads it would be another all out war. This site is a non-commercial site that is self-policed. I know that there are many dealers on here but they don't go on giving shameless plugs and blasting other companies products. If we let this go on, shouldn't we invite all brands to get involved?? Negative.
Edited by Chad H 2/24/2007 16:08
|
|
| |
|
NC KS | I will try to handle your questions best I can beings there other guy went under a rock I think.
First, Agco doesn't offer a powershift in their wheeled tractors any more. At 165 hp and below, they offer a partial powershift. I don't have any hard and fast numbers on fuel usage between the 2.
I am assuming the 70000 counts the Fendts that have been sold with that transmission since 1996 plus the Agco/ Massey/ Challengers.
I know of a local 78XX series IVT tractor that couldn't do tillage work. Just worked like a good old IH 986 hydro when hooked to good drawbar load. Deere traded him into a 8XXX powershift to solve his problem.
Agco is using the SISU engine in most of their tractors. Small Masseys get a Perkins. The SISU motor came along at the same time the CVT tranny did. This is the engine line acquired when Agco bought Valtra. High horsepower Massey tractors had used the engine for several years (since early 90s) so it is not a "new" engine to Agco products.
|
|
| |
|
| First off the number one reason I took extra time to get in a drive the IVT was because of this forum. I have read many users stating the IVT was not the best transmission for tillage work, so I wanted to see why because of my expierences with the CVT. I actually read it while at the meeting one night, guys talking about the 8000 series and Powershifts versus IVT's. I have also read here the comparison of the IVT and CVT are the same type transmission and perform the same and they are not. The only reason I posted because I wanted readers here to know that they are not the same transmission. I'm sure there are ways to operate it and acoomplish the tasks but not with the way the CVT is designed and performed. In my orginal message I made the suggestion you need to compare them in the field. Then in a later message I was asked the differences and why. My intent was in no way was to bash the IVT but provide the results of my personal expierence. I in no way wanted to have this topic go this way - I only intended to inform the public to make the judgement themselves and that there is a difference in transmissions. Like so many times topics get blow out of porportion. My first post was not advertise any product but to clarify past topics here and then was asked to explain the differences I seen in the field.
(I have been on the road since I posted the topics and have very limited internet access and would have posted earlier, I in no way was avoiding the subject as have been accused. I use agcodealer as my name becasue I'm proud to be associated with the company plus helping others that want to know more learn about the products they have to offer. I have never gained any financial gain that I have seen by this site to the best of my knowledge) |
|
| |
|
Meeteetse, Wyoming | I did a little checking around with other people today also, and I believe at least on 7 and 8000 series deere's 3 years and 3,000 hours is the norm.
|
|
| |
|
| boy o boy wish I knew how to take all this was strongly considering buying an 07 8480 was an excellent deal its at an IH dealer n they were willing to give me what I wanted for my 7130 this blows |
|
| |
|
| Pretty sure Fendt announced they were at over 150 000 CVTs made since the beginning in 1996. Fendt's line up is 100% CVT, so that's 15K tractors a year. Add all the MF/Challenger/Valtra/TerraGator/JCB equipped with CVTs out there and it makes a huge number.
There is indeed a huge difference between the Fendt CVT and competitors. I've demoed both, decided to stay with MF and haven't regretted it. Deere and Case IH are both losing a lot of marketshare to MF (and some Fendt) in the area. Excellent product yes, and also the best dealer service. |
|
| |
|
Wheatley, Arkansas | We leased a Agco ???225??? about 2004? Ran it half A day and the front end locked up, had it repaired ran a couple of more days and the front end locked up again. Broke the lease and bought a 8520 Deere. 7500 hrs later the 8520 is still running. When it does need worked on, the Deere dealer is 5 miles away instead of 85 miles away. AGCO might be the cats meow some places, but for some reason there aren't any around here anymore. |
|
| |
|
"Famous Potatoes" | I say keep it coming. I love it. My dad always said "you know when you're on top, because there will always be someone trying to knock you down".
That is why you never see Deere or even CNH guys get on here and specifically bash agco tractors. We don't care!! Most of us have had some experience with agco products, and that is the exact reason why we stay with Deere. I myself owned almost nothing but agco products until about 1998. Then I saw the light. Around here they are known as Wal-Mart tractors.
Never once have I heard my deere salesman talk negatively about other manufacturers he just lets the product speak for itself. My agco salesman is the exact opposite. Constant bashing of the competition, and it gets really annoying.
I'm also calling B.S. on the beepers and buzzers going off comment. Come on man. I have an 8360 RT, and with the 730C hooked up, I can sink it in the ground, come to a complete stop, then let off the brake and it will pick right back up where I left off. No stalling, beepers or buzzers. In fact I cant even think of what beepers or buzzers you would be hearing. |
|
| |
|
South Western Ontario, Canada | Did the John Deere have auto steer?
That could have been the source of all the noise, I found the 2630 very annoying when it was hooked to the planter.
Edit: it was a demo also, so not like I really knew how to make the beeping stop!
Edited by jcfarmboy 1/26/2014 07:46
|
|
| |
|
ecmn | if agco dealer was just another poster would there be such an uprising?
he gave his experience no matter who he is its his experience. but now we have to have a bunch of posts to bash agco?
when I worked at john deere and cat came out with there tracked tractors combines the sales people and factory people at training meetings couldn't bash the cat stuff fast enough. look at it now, deere may sell more combines then lexion but they sure are a long ways from equal.
|
|
| |
|
Central Nebraska | I also have first hand experience with Agco tractors and not Allis tractors! Allis made a good reliable tractor but went broke for some reason. We stuck with duetz had one of them and it was crude but reliable so we them bought agcos and I was never so happy to see them leave the last one just left three months ago and I have a family member who sells agco/Massey in my town and we drive 30 miles to get deeres so we know they can get fixed. We demoed CVT and Ivt tractors both were nice but felt weird to high horse power shift. I bought an 8320 new same time dad bought a Rt130 and Dt160 in which he wanted a Dt200. They turned the 160 up before we got it and agco rep gave us a 5yr 5k warranty to easy our minds he just needed to move that tractor? Dad felt he should do business with his brother. After over 100 warranty claims over 20 clutch pedals sensors after warranty ran out and then the tractor breaking the diff. In half and the wanted 20k to fix it we sold it to another dealer for ( listen up) 17k with a like new loader with grapple that was unhandy so we never used due to joystick only a really small hand could use. Rt130 left because it ran good for 8k hours then we overhauled and never balked at anything other than it being 5k higher than quote but the electric gremlins started and after dealing with them not fixing the three point after a 2k computer and some sensors and three trips to town it was replaced with 7800 with half as many hours we loved that 130 but just got tired of agco not supporting the service. I don't feel it's all dealers problem either agco doesn't hve near as many online techs on bulletin boards helping each other through problems like the Deere And case shops. BTW 8320 still on place only 2 warranty tickets and same hours as 160 had.AGCO NEEDS TO QUIT PUTTING OTHER BRANDS DOWN AND FOX THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. They tell the dealers such stories at sales events. I know first hand I have a Claas combine and they told my uncle and another dealer they had more cleaning area and had better performance than a Claas and they used to have Claas in the Massey and chose the gleaner combine. That was the best laugh I ever had! I told him you take a look at my combine and he did and didn't say a word. |
|
| |
|
Elmira, Ontario | Guys, this thread was from 7 years ago! |
|
| |
|
Southeast Colorado | No kidding...........what the heck started this over? |
|
| |
|
| Sorry I did am trying to determine if I should buy an mf 8480 or mx 305 do alot of chopping and some tillage |
|
| |
|
"Famous Potatoes" | I've just been thinking about how to respond for the last seven years. :) |
|
| |
|
Elmira, Ontario | Nothing against looking in history to review discussions. I'm glad you found a post that was relevant to your question. You'll get more current information if you start a new thread though. The only people who will see your question will be ones like me who already posted in the thread and those who happen to check the main page right when this was the most recent thread in the Machinery Talk board. |
|
| |
IVT vs CVT in field Demo Yesterday
