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Iowa | Hey all. Always read this site with a lot of interest, so I know that you guys will be able to answer some questions.
We are looking at purchasing a new tractor that will do double duty pulling both a Hardi Nav 1100 sprayer during the growing season and a grain cart (probably around 700 bushels) in the fall. Due to an increase in acres and change in chemical program, we need to cover more acres in a smaller time frame than before. Consequently, in order to spray more quickly and more efficiently, we are interested in both a CVT/IVT transmission and a suspended front axle. We have done some research and test driving of an AGCO RT series, and have just begun checking into Deeres. In the process, a lot of questions have come up, and I thought that I would see what input you all had.
First of all, the ground rules... It is necessary that the tractor be able to be spaced wide at 120 inches with singles on 14.9 tires. We have done this for many years on a White 8310 with singles and it works very well in our 15 inch row beans. This point is non negotiable. However, since we want to also use this tractor on a grain cart, we want to be able put on duals for the extra traction. A couple of guys around here with older Deeres simply take off the inside wheel, leaving the inner cast center to run between the row during spraying. Consequently they are running on just pressed steel wheels at 120 inches when in singles. We are unsure about the safety of this and would like to have a cast center on the outside also so we are on cast when in singles. However, with the design of the new flanged AGCO cast rims, it looks like we might not be able to get the inner rim off over the outer cast center without taking the whole outer cast off the axle. Anybody know of any workable solutions? Can JD with cast+cast do this easily?
Now, concerning the features of the tractors. Around here, no one seems to like the Triple Link Suspension on the 7000 series JD, while everyone raves about the ILS on the 8000 series. We have not had the chance to see the AGCO Hydramaxx suspension in person. Does the performace of the Hydramaxx more closely resemble the Deere TLS or the ILS?
Concerning tractor size on the AGCO's. The dealer claims that since going to the A series with the Sisu engine, all of the tractors he has sold have been turning about 15 to 20 horse more on the dyno than their rated PTO hp. Therefore a 140A would be cranking around 160 hp and a 155A would be around 180 hp. Can anyone else verify this or heard of this? Is the Sisu engine all its cracked up to be? Deere salesman says that his tractors dyno close to rated PTO hp.
Just like everyone else, Autosteer might be in our near future. I know that many JD's come ready to plug and play. What is the status on the AGCO tractors? Unfortunately the literature is not too helpful. I see something about getting ISOBUS with the GTA display console (which we don't really think we need if it just controls hydraulics). Is this option necessary to be "Autosteer Ready"?
For AGCO, there are some 2006 model tractors still around and also some with the 2007 updates. Does anyone know exactly what these 2007 updates are besides the new hood design?
I guess lastly, it seems that there have been some mixed reviews on this site of the JD IVT concerning its performance and fuel consumption. In fact, in our initial conversation with JD dealer, he was trying to steer us in the direction of the PowerQuad transmission. I know that maybe not as many people have experience with the AGCO brands, but I haven't really read anything negative on here yet about the PowerMaxx CVT. How does its fuel consumption compare to a powershift in tillage applications? Any further personal experience you guys can share with an either an IVT or CVT will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance for the help. Sorry for the long post. --Corey
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| I can't answer very many of your questions. But I can tell you I have a 220A and it is a real nice smooth tractor. It is alot more fuel effecient then the powershift when pulling a field cultivator and roller. Deere does not have what agco has when it comes to the CVT. Deere has what they are trying to copy from the fendt. Agco has it. Deere does not have a whole lot more then a powershift with more clutch packs,trying to acheive what agco has with the CVT. Fendt also had the suspended front axel,before anyone else,meaning they have alot more experience with it. That to has been added to the Agco line. I am not running deere down, I will probably get hard for saying what I have said , but it is a fact.
IG |
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Brazilton KS | How about this idea? Cast centers on both inside and outside if you feel you must. When you want to remove the duals, jack up tractor, unbolt and remove outside rim. Unbolt inside rim. Move it from the outside of the inside center to the inside of the outside center. Bolt it on there. You've just accomplished the goal of removing the inside tire and leaving the outside one on, but you've avoided the issue of "how do I get the rim over the center?"
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Bonanza, Or | The IVT is the cats meow if you want a higher HP tractor that you will mostly use for a lighter duty. If you want the IVT to use in heavy tillage most of the time and sometimes use it in lighter work you will hate the tractor. The IVT is an absolute fuel hog in heavy tillage. Think of all the uses the old IH hydros were good at and all the ones they were horrid at and you have the idea. The IVT is much improved over the hydro but it still shines and fails at the same type of jobs as the hydro did. |
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| I have a 2005 AGCO DT200A. It is a CVT and they just don't get any better than this. It is true on the HP thing. Ours was Dyno'd at 230HP. It is the smoothest tractor you will ever drive and the power is very good. Fuel consumption is low. I don't know any numbers, but we pull a 42 foot field cultivator with it and can run almost 2 days (8 hour days) without filling up. I personnally wouldn't even consider the IVT as it, as said before, isn't the real deal. It is a glorified clutched transmission. There is no clutch in the CVT. The SISU is smooth, quiet and causes us no problems. Ours doesn't have suspension, but it has air ride cab. It is very nice. AGCO is the best kept secret out there and gained a lot when it acquired Fendt. This is my two cents, hope it helps. |
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Seneca Kansas 66538 | I also demoed a CVT in an Agco tractor for a day, It seemed extremely fuel effiecent, lots of power, cab was very nice and quiet. The back windows are a lil different but you can see out of them really good also. Oh yes, the cab had an air ride suspension on it so in your spraying operations I think that would give you a smooth ride all day. I know after bouncing around the field with a grain cart, I really like the CVT and cab alot better than my 9635. These newer Agco's are really nice. |
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| I ran an RT with the front axle and cab suspension pulling a disc mower. I was gliding across the field at 13+ mph and it was sooothe it was like driving a cadilac down the road copared to a regular tractor. One neat thing about the AGCO suspension is you can turn it on and off. If you ever wonder if it makes a differnece run it in the field and shut it off and just watch the slip and wheel hop start.
I have been following that iso bus stuff a little. from what I understand you won't have to have it to run the auto guide, but if the tracotr is iso ready you should be able to plug the newest agco top dock deal into the tractor and run auto guide from the console in the tractor, I think don't know if the autor steer is iso complian yet but I was told it is coming. you will also eventually be able to run you implements from it too. I know the new agco/mf round balers will do it and I think they have a new white planter that does too. I have read articles about some european equipment that does it already. Just think no more running wires all over and taking monitors in and out of the cab just plug in a connection on the back of the tractor and you are ready to go. |
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Alberta, Canada | I guess it's true what they say, AGCO - Ya gotta drive one, but I'm just a poor boy who hasn't yet explored the world to any great extent, but I have no complaints about Deere's IVT. I agree that it's not beneficial for heavy tillage when it comes to fuel consumption, but otherwise what's so bad about it?
I've a longing to try a Fendt lately (last 6-12 months) but haven't because I'm not overly serious in actually buying one. We're in the final stages of getting a Deere, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, "really want to try a Fendt, and a Valtra". Seems unfair, almost trickery to let other guys bring one of theirs out when I'm really only interested in seeing how they stack up, and not actually interested in buying one unless they turn out to be God's gift to farmers. Fuel consumption isn't a big selling point for me, it'll put 2500 hours on in 3-5 years, with maybe 5% of that being light tillage. So for loader and general chore work, being happy with IVT already, what makes CVT so great? AGCO's really lacking in the cab.
-Josh
BTW, Corey, you mentioned the AGCO model you're considering, what about Deere? Small Frame or Large Frame? You'll find a huge difference when comparing the two.
Edited by JoshA 12/19/2006 17:23
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| The AGCO CVT is a proven design with over 50,000 units in the field and the longest history (Since 1996) in the CVT market. The AGCO CVT comes from the Fendt Technology (AGCO Sister Company). The AGCO CVT has NO Clutch Paks or Clutches (Less Maintenance). Less Parts than a gear drive transmission. Plus you have more speed at 0.1 MPH increaments with the AGCO and more control from 60ft per hour to 35 mph or optional 32 mph version. F/R Left Hand Reverser, Arm Rest Control, SV1/SV2 Preset Speed Controls, Foot Pedal Mode. More ways to control but you can simply drive it by using the F/R Reverser only until you learn the function to maximize efficiency. You can have 2 sets of SV1/SV2 presets in each range work and road for a total of 4 total presets. Plus 2 preset engine speeds. And over 91% efficiency of putting horsepower to the ground - more efficient than any other transmission style!
HydraMAXX front Axle has 11 degrees oscillation, 55 degree turn angle, electro hydraulic PFA engagement with diff lock standard. You can turn the front axle on or off. If you do not want axle suspension (ex. loader work) or it has a problem - you can still use the tractor with the front suspension turned off. It works as a rigid front axle.
AGCO/SISU engines have been great. This isn't a new engine but new to the AGCO tractors. In 2004, SISU sold over 27,000 engines. They are used in a variety of other applications beside AGCO tractors. Kohmatsu,Steyr, and many other companies use SISU engines. Very big in the Marine Industry and Pump and Gear Sets. Every AGCO engine is manufactured by an engine builder that does the assembly and final testing and placards the engine with their name. This gives pride to the engine builder and traceability versus mass produced assembly line engines. Each engines internal rotating group is balanced to the nearest gram (like balancing a tire) and the only other place you see this done is race car engines in North America. They are very high tech engines and are ahead of the EPA regulations. Go to the agcocorp.com website and learn more. Been nothing but impressed. They also develope peak torque at low RPMS vs. the old engines developed peak near max engine speed. This allows you to reduce engine RPMs and fuel usage and with the CVT maintain the same ground speed. Engine and Transmission work together.
The GTA console does more than control Hydraulics. It is a performance monitor that you can calculate fuel usage and cost per acre. It can be used to set Headlands features that can be preprogrammed manullly or they can record a live sequence, plus they can be edited if you did something out of order or missed a function. The GTA Console can also be now used as the monitor for an everyday expanding line-up of equipment. WHITE Planters and HESSTON balers now use the GTA console in tractor for the monitor if so equipped this is the ISOBUS compliant. One contection and your ready to go. The GTA console also is used with Autosteer guidance system it displays the path and area of coverage and how you set the guidance up. As you can see it's everything you need in one monitor.
Hope this helps. Our customers just rave about the CVT and AGCO engines. Had one in today just to tell me how much he likes it and the fuel savings he is getting. We don't get many stopping in to tell us "good news" stories around here. Usually if you don't hear from a customer it's good. But these CVT and AGCO engines are really stopping in or calling me telling how much they love their tractors. Not very common for dealers. They also tell me how their using the tractors in more ways and being more efficient. That helps us all. If farmers can make more money and become more efficient they can put more in the bank and be here tomorrow. |
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| Sounds like you aint no poor boy, or you wouldnt be buying green. I can tell by your talk you are the typical smart alec john deere guy that would nt drive anything else.If you are willing to give up 5 % over 3 years,you have plenty of money. What makes the CVT so great is that it is a true constant variable transmisson, Deere dont have it,But claim they do with there glorified powershift. Deere has a cab that hasnt really changed in how many years? Cabs really werent a selling point to John Deere people because they had the worst cab for all of the 80's and 90's but it did hurt there sales.
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Embarrass WI | Back in 1997, when we had decided to get a Self Propelled Forage Harvester("chopper" in layman's terms),I was just going to go buy a JD, since we have a very good local dealer who has given us excellent service. I told myself I needed to check out the other guys, just in case I needed to rationalize my purchase. Long story short, we ended up with a Claas, and I have never regretted it. JD makes a lot of good stuff, and they beat everybody else all to hell on parts availability, but not everything they make is the best available. |
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NW Iowa | Have nearly the setup you are considering (minus the 120" centers) in the green color (7920 IVT IFS 14"rubber).
Use it just as you. Runs a 16 row planter, a 1500gal 80' sprayer, and a 600bu. grain cart. Have run it two years and love it. With the IFS and active seat it rides like a dream. Spray at 15mph. Can race through the field with an empty cart and not bounce of the ceiling.
However its not perfect. The IVT is a little quirky. Seems to maybe be a little time delayed from the stick. Find it works best to put the same operater in the cab and not switch as you have to get use to it.
I like it you just have to get use to it.
I love the IFS but on a full grain cart you possibly get a little more front to rear tractor rocking because the front of the tractor can flex or spring independant of the front axle.
Have never really used it for heavy tillage so can't comment on that.
Don't know what AGCO uses for hydraulics or hydraulic controls, but Deeres have always served me well in that department. Had a red tractor of which hydraulics overheated anytime the tem got past the low eightys, not good when spraying.
The AGCO may be a good tractor, but around here they are a tough commodity to get your money out of come trade in time.
Good luck! Whatever you get you'll like the IVT and IFS plus narrow rubber for how you're planning on using it. |
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Alberta, Canada | ilgleaner - 12/19/2006 18:48
Sounds like you aint no poor boy, or you wouldnt be buying green. I can tell by your talk you are the typical smart alec john deere guy that would nt drive anything else.If you are willing to give up 5 % over 3 years,you have plenty of money. What makes the CVT so great is that it is a true constant variable transmisson, Deere dont have it,But claim they do with there glorified powershift. Deere has a cab that hasnt really changed in how many years? Cabs really werent a selling point to John Deere people because they had the worst cab for all of the 80's and 90's but it did hurt there sales.
Right, which is exactly why we currently run 3 of the blue breed (New Hollands) and have never owned a Deere tractor in the past? I wasn't getting at my being financially poor, but being half sarcastic at being deprived of the opportunity to try an Agco. As I've already mentioned, we run New Holland in a Deere infested region, and when looking for a new tractor I've considered a TS135A & MXU135, TM175 & MXM175, T7000 & Puma 165, JD7520, 7720, & 7630, Buhler Genesis 2145, and looked briefly at a Fendt 818 and Valtra T160. I've had a TS135A on demo as well as the 7520 & 7720, as well tried a used New Holland 8970 Genesis. These are all loader tractors. Also note on the CNH models, I dealt with separate CaseIH & New Holland dealers, and I'm not just grouping them together. So count it out, I've looked at a total of 12 different new tractors, on top of operating a Case/McCormick MX130, NH 8340, JD 4440, JD 7410, JD7610, JD7820, and JD7920 all with loaders, save the 4440.
Now, as for you and Deere being more expensive, that's a common view, but as it turns out a CaseIH Puma 165 with LX770 (Quicke 980/Q75) loader and 650/65R38s was still more money than a JD7630/IVT with 746 Loader and 710/70R38s. Take off how many thousands for IVT so you can compare apples to apples for transmissions, and all it does is make the 7630 cheaper. Note, a TM175, MXM175, was about the same price as a 7630, and an TSA and MXU 135 was about the same as a 7520 with IVT. A Fendt price is not so scary if you compare apples to apples with a John Deere, however I did not go for front axle suspension, I believe these tires will be enough, I've "demoed" them on 7730 and 7920 tractors. Factor in resale, yes, I do care about that as it is likely we will be getting out of cattle in 3-5 years.
Personally I like the current 7000LF and 8000 series cabs with the control arm, and have no complaints on them other than that one tends to get bored, having to only flick your wrist or lift a finger for an entire day. However, I've also spent a couple 17-hour days on a TM, and a number of 12-hour days on a JD7410 without any complaints, which is why I considered another TM or MXM, yet haven't much good to say reguarding a JD7520 cab.
My whole question was, and forgive my ignorance for having not operated an AGCO since a 2001 Massey, and not having any complaints with IVT in my applications, other than the technical raves, from a common guy's stance, what makes Agco's CVT so great? But apparently, that's an impossible question to answer, the only thing I've been able to get is that it has less components, is simpler to use (didn't find I needed any extra brains to handle an IVT mind) and it's just plain better, just because!
-Josh
Try some grammar next time, would you please?
Edited by JoshA 12/20/2006 00:04
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| Sorry Josh didnt realize your were an ENGLISH TEACHER. I never was real impressed with people that had good grammar. The CVT, you can run it in three different modes. Field,road, or foot throttle. The foot throttle mode,you just drive it like an automatic truck. Push the pedal,the tractor goes let up ,it slows down.Couple that with the built in joy stick.I would think that would be an exellent feature for a loader tractor. The CVT is the only true constant variable transmisson. It doesnt have clutch packs,puts more power to the ground,and cost you less to operate. And if you have tried a Fendt, that is what is in the Agco. So I guess you have tried an Agco,because Fendt is owned by Agco. Please give me a grade on this ,as I am worried about my mid-term coming up. I would like to know my weak points in grammar. So I can work hard on them for the next test.
IG |
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Alberta, Canada | ilgleaner - 12/20/2006 14:25
The CVT, you can run it in three different modes. Field,road, or foot throttle. The foot throttle mode,you just drive it like an automatic truck. Push the pedal,the tractor goes let up ,it slows down.Couple that with the built in joy stick.I would think that would be an exellent feature for a loader tractor. The CVT is the only true constant variable transmisson. It doesnt have clutch packs,puts more power to the ground,and cost you less to operate. And if you have tried a Fendt, that is what is in the Agco. So I guess you have tried an Agco,because Fendt is owned by Agco.
IG
Getting rid of all the amusing comments reguarding your English skills, and that was a good post. Thanks, and yes, that does sound like an excellent feature for a loader tractor, it's what I try to do with regular non-variable transmission units already. It also sounds easier for putting new operators on it as it's similar to a road-vehicle. I do know Fendt is owned by Agco, however I haven't actually driven a Fendt yet. I stopped by the dealer and had a look at an 818 with loader, as well as at a farm show this fall. I was talking to the Fendt salesman on the phone this summer a few times, and he said as soon as he got one in with a loader on it he'd give me a call and bring it out. He never did, and finally I stopped in this fall and saw the 818, and now I'm already fairly deep into dealings on a Deere. Never really had a go on the Fendt, however I found the cab to be rather disappointing. And that's been my major problem with Agco I guess, I've sat in the Masseys/AGCOs/Challenger, the Valtras, the Fendts, and just sitting in the cabs found them to be a pain, but without actually putting some time on them, it's hard to really judge.
-Josh |
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| do they run at 25mph or can a few mph be gotten out of them. |
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| what dont you like abou the cab. |
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UP / Thumb of Michigan | I've never had the chance to use a Challenger in the field, but did drive one last night around a dealers lot. I've never driven a Deere newer than the 96 8100 that we'd like to replace, so my opinion might be clouded there. I really, really was impressed with the features on the Challenger after getting used to all the ways it could be operated. The Challenger is definately in the running when we trade. The Deeres probably won't be. |
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| dealer farm depot? whats does he have in stock in challengers. |
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UP / Thumb of Michigan | Yes, it was in Caro. Don't know what inventory was, I just drove what they had for a demo. I'm not familiar with the model #s, I drove a 225HP+ tractor. If the boys stock anything close to what they did before (with the green stuff) , parts availability and service won't be a concern at all. |
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Lots of AGCO RT questions (vs. JD 7000 series)
