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| Just started timed AI on two cows for the first time yesterday. I am not all that happy with my handling facilities and concerned about conception rates.
So I am considering leasing a bull not too far away from me. I realize this is going to be expensive with just two cows but trying to learn at a small scale before expanding.
Is this something you would recommend rather than repeating the synch & AI process? If so, what kind of timeline would you recommend? Cows are set to be AI’d July 7th. Timing for Preg Checks, Turning the Bull Out Post AI, and Pulling the Bull?
I have attached a couple pictures of the bull for your critique as well, he will be breeding a couple 3 year old red angus.
Thanks!
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 9CEBD725-6A28-49FF-A00C-9FCFD3678F91 (full).jpeg (104KB - 177 downloads)
B8ABAD1B-AD8E-4259-B80C-87A974A1D91C (full).jpeg (346KB - 142 downloads)
80A5ED20-6489-40FD-A887-8E93FE01486A (full).jpeg (362KB - 140 downloads)
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Southern IA | ntorreyyy - 6/28/2023 16:28
Just started timed AI on two cows for the first time yesterday. I am not all that happy with my handling facilities and concerned about conception rates.
So I am considering leasing a bull not too far away from me. I realize this is going to be expensive with just two cows but trying to learn at a small scale before expanding.
Is this something you would recommend rather than repeating the synch & AI process? If so, what kind of timeline would you recommend? Cows are set to be AI’d July 7th. Timing for Preg Checks, Turning the Bull Out Post AI, and Pulling the Bull?
I have attached a couple pictures of the bull for your critique as well, he will be breeding a couple 3 year old red angus.
Thanks!
use the money you are going to spend on the bull lease and buy gates, should make a workable system |
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Alabama | Are these registered cattle or commercial? My answer may vary depending. |
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| They are regesitered but not real relevent to what I doing. Calves will be finished and sold as freezer beef. |
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| I’ve got gates, a sweep and a tarter headgate. Head gate is the main problem along with my lack of experience.
Auto headgate is giving me problems with one of the cows, she doesn’t hit it hard enough and is scared of it now. Wouldn’t even exit the alley this last time. |
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Alabama | Since you have already started the protocol, go ahead and finish it, but turn the bull out instead of AI'ing. Leave him in for 30 days. To preg check pull blood 30 days after you remove him. |
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| Why instead of AI’ing vs AI then clean up with Bull? I won’t be doing the actual AI I have a tech for that. I will only be doing the Synch protocol. |
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NEMO | AI if you must, but I'm with NCAL. Why folks with a few cows want to make things so complicated, I'll never understand. You most likely need a bull anyway, unless you get real lucky. Turn the bull in for 30 days (2 heats) and call it good. Won't have to worry about the headgate or paying the tech |
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Nebraska | Because it’s two head, which any bull worth having nuts can breed 2 synchronized cows without missing, so if you are going to pay to use him for cleanup anyway there’s very little you will gain by using frozen semen instead of his fresh put in at exactly the right time if your two cows end up being 6 hours off of each other. Timed AI results are evaluated in the average percentages, so with such a small sample size one cow on each end of the statistical bell curve means you missed them both and calve later than you want.
IMO only if you needed registered progeny out of a particular sire to qualify for a specific marketing program would the AI service gain you an economic advantage. The market scenario you described would need a larger number of cows to pay for the effort or forego leasing the bull and try and heat detect a recycle to have an advantage. This is assuming the bull is at least average or even slightly below average for growth and carcass traits
And I don’t hold herd size against anyone, but for some management tactics it makes a difference whether they are worth applying or not. Hope I explained that where it makes sense, I do believe synchronization and AI are valuable tools in commercial herds as well as registered, but in commercial herds the synchronization is more valuable than what bull you use. |
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Nebraska | If you do decide to AI still and use a clean up bull, wait 2 days after the AI and turn him out for another 25-30 days. |
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| Makes complete sense. I appreciate the response and advice.
So if I don’t AI and only use the bull, I’ve got a couple questions:
• When would the last shot of GnRH be given? Since it is supposed to be at AI but in this case I am no longer AI’ing. At 60 hours? Which would be the very beginning of the breeding window.
• When should the bull be turned out with them? Could he be with them before the 60 hour mark? (I don’t have a great way to keep him separate, and 60 hours is first thing in the morning so I would prefer to let him in the night before)
• If my Synchronization was to not work properly for some reason (worst case scenario), would 30 days with the bull still be enough or would I want to go more just in case? I don’t want to keep the bull any longer than I have to but also don’t want to end up with open cows and a bull that I returned. |
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Alabama | In this case, your last shot of GNRH would be when you pull the CIDR's. Turn the bull out after you get done working the cows. The tighter the calving is, the easier it is to manage the calves. |
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| Oh, okay. So they would get PG and GnRH at the same time? |
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NEMO | Follow through with the protocol like NCAL says, except put the bull in instead of frozen semen. You can go longer than 30 days if you want, stretch it out to 45-50 to get 3 cycles. Most on here would correctly tell you that if she doesn't breed in 2 cycles that you don't want her, but in your case it just doesn't matter
Edited by oldtiger 6/28/2023 20:47
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Alabama | Sorry, I miss typed. Give PG only when you pull the CIDR's. |
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| And then GnRH at 60 hours after that?
Edited by ntorreyyy 6/28/2023 21:08
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Alabama | No. Turn the bull out and forget about the last shot. |
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| Got it. What’s the reason behind that? Just curious! Thanks so much for your help! |
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Alabama | GNRH at AI is to help speed up ovulation in the non-responders. In your case, it will not matter when they respond because the bull will have already been turned out. |
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| Oh okay. So if I am planning to pull CIDRs the evening of July 4th would it be alright to turn the bull out the evening of July 5th? Not sure what my window ends up looking like? Still at least 60-66 hours?
With the holiday, just not sure I can get the bull sorted out and here for the 4th at the exact time I am pulling CIDRs. |
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Alabama | The evening of the 5th will be fine. You can even wait until the morning of the 5th to work the cows and turn him out that afternoon. |
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| oldtiger - 6/28/2023 19:47
AI if you must, but I'm with NCAL. Why folks with a few cows want to make things so complicated, I'll never understand. You most likely need a bull anyway, unless you get real lucky. Turn the bull in for 30 days (2 heats) and call it good. Won't have to worry about the headgate or paying the tech
Not understanding the 2 heats in 30 days, she has to be in heat the first week to get 2 heats unless you are assuming that he is synching them, IMO with just 2 cows if you are going to use a clean-up a bull just use him and be done. Get a good mineral to feed (needs to be for a couple of months before breeding, preferably year around) if they are gaining weight and not overly fat any bull not shooting blanks should get them pregnant in 21 days why complicate things with shots and hormones, mother nature can do it herself plenty well and has for centuries . If you want to go AI do the mineral thing observe and record heats so before the breeding season if possible so you know when to expect them in heat so you can watch closer and breed them. With 2 cows it should be pretty apparent when they come in heat if you know what is normal behavior. |
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Nebraska | I have not read the other responses yet but I would not give any additional GnRH if you are going to bull breed. I would pull your CIDR and give the prostaglandin shot. Turn the bull in immediately and pull in 30 days. Both cows will have two chances with the bull in that time and if they are open after that, I’d sell the cow and buy a bred in your preferred window.
They should be in heat in 48-60 hours after the cidr pull and prostaglandin. |
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Central SD | Sounds like your set up is fine. Some cows hate getting poked with a needle. Make them go through the chute or head gate to get done with it. |
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SE Texas | CIDRs can stay in another day or so. The critical time starts when the CIDRs are pulled. The protocol says CIDR in for 7 days. I have left them in as little as 6 days and as much as 10 days with good results. |
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AI Only Vs Ai & Clean Up Bull
