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Missouri | Back before individual row unit clutches became popular, around here it was commonplace to install additional backshafts and drive chains, and use tru-count electric clutches to split planters into 4 sections. Of late, it has been popular to hook these clutches up to Ag Leader systems. The trouble with this is the massive inrush current on these clutches. They can draw over 20 amps (each!) if the solenoid plunger does not pull in. The four of them together are powered by a 10 gauge power wire, feeding a clutch control module, on a 30 amp fuse. It is common for these systems to blow fuses. We no longer install them, for that reason, but I still have used planters so equipped, that I have to service. Owners are becoming frustrated (understandably so) with this issue.
Some customers have replaced the fuse with a 40 amp, with mixed results. That will not be my solution, as I feel that much current is putting the clutch control module at risk.
I am working up a plan to solve this, and my working plan is to run a second power supply line, 4 relays, and split the clutches onto two circuits. I will hook the CCM up to four relays, one of them fed by circuit 1, the other fed by circuit 2.
I am seeking input on two subjects:
1) Enclosure for relays. Leading idea is a PVC double gang box, and a blank cover plate. Cheap, commonly available, adequate room for 4 relays, and sufficiently water tight. Not really any problems here, but open to better ideas.
2) Cost effective source of relays (30 amp or better, ideally). They need to be reasonably priced, and commonly available in the event replacements are necessary. I also need them available on short notice (schedule on this is PDQ!!, ideally will begin build tomorrow if time allows). I have implement dealers nearby, and also NAPA can get parts pretty quick.
Looking for any insightful ideas, please and thank you! |
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Winkler, Manitoba Canada | Just set up our Precison Rowflow in a similar manner. Rowflow module is only good for one amp/clutch. We are using hydraulic solenoid valves (rated at 1.67 amps) to disconnect 3 row sections. Solution is PVC box, with 4 small cube relays (ratings up to 40 or 50 amps) that are common at most auto parts stores for a few dollars. |
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Missouri | Right now, I'm liking Deere PN: AH201526
It's a 40 amp relay for about $11, and a nearby dealer has a dozen of them on hand according to JD Parts. Being a Deere part makes it easy for a farmer to replace (even a red guy, and I'm sure there's a red PN that fits).
Now I just need pigtails/sockets to fit it. I have a deere PN for one, but it's over $30, and no one stocks it.
Searching napaonline.com for "relay connector" finds sockets with pigtails that look like they fit (I think it's a fairly common pin pattern), but it doesn't tell me the gauge of the wires. I would like 12 gauge wires, if I can find it. |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | I'll be right back = I have a NAPA socket w/ pigtails out in the shed, still in the box.
I get a photo, too.
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Winkler, Manitoba Canada | Try "relay socket" |
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Missouri | You're a lifesaver!
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Missouri | NAPA ECH EC23 looks like it has decent size wires, and will fit my chosen relays...
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=ECHEC23_... |
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Winkler, Manitoba Canada | Case number for the relay would be 1983394C2. |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | Uses all 14 ga wire.
(looks like you found it already) EC23
Edit: Note: Napa had to order in that certain 30 amp cube relay; they had a 30/20 amp relay in stock ( = I assume the 20 amp was on 87a post/circuit)
Edited by 4WD 5/20/2013 19:56
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Missouri | Thanks! That looks like it will work. I was hoping for 12ga, but no longer the length of it, 14 ought to work for this. |
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Missouri | Thanks. I got a green guy and a red guy with planters with this issue. I may give them each color coordinating relays ;) |
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Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80 | Too bad you couldn't find "shielded cube relays" WITH a "shielded mating socket/pigtail" . (= waterproof, made for being out in the elements)
I seen them on some freightliners, I have seen the shielded cube relays, for sale, BUT not the mating pigtail/socket assembly.
(but for your requirements, they probably aren't always "in stock" either)
Edit: I found them = Hella has them.
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_Hella_007794301.asp
2nd edit=wire size on this shielded connector/pigtail:
Relay Wiring Harness for Hella Weatherproof Skirted Relays.
Has 5 = 12" Leads
(2) = 14-16ga.Coil Activating leads
(3) = 12ga. Battery & Load Leads
Edited by 4WD 5/20/2013 20:26
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Missouri | I have a few of those, but not enough, and the connectors on them use 16 ga wire (on a 30A/50A relay !?). They're on a left over piece of wiring harness from a machine that got a new harness for some warranty reason, and the mfr didn't want the old one back. They are weathertight, with silicone seals like weatherpack connectors. If the wires were larger, and replacement parts were commonly available, they would be great. |
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Bloomingburg, Ohio | You can buy them here with no wire, make them any way you want! About half way down the page is the one with out leads.
http://www.ceautoelectricsupply.com/relaysandsolenoids.html |
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Near Intersection of I-35 & I-90 Southern Mn. | As I started to read your post I immediately thought of the relays that I would use in such a situation. As I scrolled through the posts I noticed a picture of a sealed type relay. We used relays of this style (Hella) for heavy duty situation and got the various pieces from Waytek (waytekwire.com). These relays would not require an enclosure although you might still want one.
As I recall they can be purchased partially assembled with pigtails or bare where you buy the terminals and solder them on to your harness. As I recall the relays are a Single Pole Double Throw type so they could be used for logic reversing by using the Normally closed terminal if desirable.
As you have already stated you will need to feed them with heavy wire or split them into pairs to run directly to the battery.
Edited by tedbear 5/21/2013 07:08
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NW Iowa | I have a white planter with this same setup having problems blowing the 30 amp fuse. I originally thought a solenoid was going bad but maybe this is a better fix. I like this idea but I want to make sure I understand it. You are going to run a separate power cable connected to the relay then to the clutch to operate the clutches. The relay will then receive power to "trip" it from the clutch module power that is connected to the 30 amp power? If you don't mind I would like to see a picture of your box. |
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NNW Nebraska | Disclaimer, I have no Idea what I am talking about!
If the 40 amp fuse works, the 10 ga wire should be ok at that.
why not just use a 40 in the main line and put a fuse on each clutch @ 15 or 20 amps. Would be safer for the clutch than a 30 amp. |
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Winkler, Manitoba Canada | A couple of pictures of our aux. power for clutches / solenoid valves. The box gets power from an extra pin in the tractor implement plug wired directly to the battery via a 20 amp breaker. In our case this is more than enough power for the four solenoid valves that it operates.
Edited by WTW 5/21/2013 13:16
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Missouri | The 40 amp still pops too frequently.
The clutches are powered constant hot, and the clutch control module switches the ground. 40 amps is more than the rating of the clutch control module, which is an expensive part.
These clutches, when used singly, require either a 15 amp fuse, or a 10 amp time delay fuse, to operate.
The issue is when the voltage sags. The solenoids only pull 1.5 amps when pulled in, but can pull into the 20's when the plunger sticks. It is not uncommon to see the voltage sag 3-4 volts on the planter side of that 10 ga wire when all 4 clutches are simultaneously disengaged. Those solenoids perform very poorly under that kind of voltage sag. It's a real chicken/egg scenario. The voltage sag can be both the cause of, and caused by the solenoid plunger not pulling in. |
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Missouri | Fantastic example of what I have in mind!!
Now I wish I had sourced different relays. The ones I have do not have the screw mount tab, and will just be "stuffed in the box". I like the neat box you get by fastening them down. |
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Central Ohio | Got any picts of the back shaft setup?
I have been contemplating doing this on our 2 knize 2700 planters. Each is 36 row 20" and individual row clutches gets really expensive.
Right now I use field IQ on both to control the half with clutches. Field IQ switched leads control relays that I setup, like you are hoping to do I think. I used 30 amp auto reset circuit breakers that fit in a spade style fuse holder. works great for us.
Thought about making each planter 6 sections using a shaft across the top of the tool bar or something and then cutting the hex shaft at appropriate places.
Any advice would be helpful |
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Central Ohio | also got those circuit breakers and 30 amp relays off the shelf at napa and/or Advance auto. |
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Missouri | I will try to take some pics of the planter when I am there, if I remember to bring a camera. It is basically just angle iron supports, holding a backshaft above the row units. The clutches hang off the backshaft, and chains drop down to the row unit drill shaft.
The main limitation of this setup (besides the electrical demands of the clutch solenoids) is the wing flex joints. Because the backshafts are about two feet above the drillshaft (and thusly 2 feet above the wing hinge point), it is not practical for the backshaft to span across the wing joint, due to the excessive length of telescoping driveshaft that would be necessary.
We don't see any 3700's (or 2700's) in our area, so off the top of my head, I don't know where the flex points are. Depending on where the frame drives from, and where it flexes, a backshaft type clutch installation may or may not be practical. |
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Winkler, Manitoba Canada | Perhaps you would consider making the planter hydraulic drive, with a motor for each of the six proposed sections. If the motors are plumbed in series only one controller is needed. A solenoid valve to turn off the section is about fifty dollars. With this setup you do not need the clutches at all. Our White 12 row stackfold is broken into four sections of three rows each.
Edited by WTW 5/21/2013 23:01
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Planter with 4x trucount electric clutches. blowing fuses. looking for solutions.
