|
|
NEMO | Anybody know of a good cattle dog trainer in the Missouri/southern Iowa/Western Illinois/eastern Kansas area?
Looking at getting a Catahoula X Australian Shepherd pup and would like to have it trained on cattle. Any advantage to having two dogs (besides a larger feed bill)?
Anybody looking for this type of dog? Litter of twelve and they have 7 or 8 left. I think they will be weaned in the next couple weeks.
|
|
| |
|
ok | Great minds think alike. I was going to ask the same question today except closer to oklahoma. I just got a blue wheeler/Australian Shepard mix. He's really smart and has lots of grit. I would like to send him somewhere so I don't ruin his potential. |
|
| |
|
NE Oregon | I hear old timers say let your kids
Have a pup for the first year then take it and make a dog out of it.
May be some truth to that, keeps you from having to much expectation too early.
In all reality though, you are always training your dog. Either training to obey or training to disobey. Even if you get a fully trained dog, you could lose it if you don’t know get yourself trained. |
|
| |
|
Centralia, MO |
I'll bet denise.r could help you out.......from her posts it looks like she is located in southeast Indiana but she might "know someone that knows someone". |
|
| |
|
| you have mail |
|
| |
|
Central IA | Nyle Sealine is from Princeton, MO. I have no idea if he's still active, but I bought a boarder collie from him 12 years ago and she's been a fantastic dog. The last number I have for him is 660-748-3632 |
|
| |
|
The Palouse North Idaho | Don't forget to get some training for yourself. If you haven't used herding dogs before you need to learn how to use them. |
|
| |
|
ok | Thanks everyone. Yes I probably need more training than the pup! |
|
| |
|
south east Indiana | There is much to consider when getting a stock dog. First - maybe most important things are 1- watch the parents work. If they do not or you dont like they way they do work, pass. Not every cattle dog or border collie or...can or will work stock - IT IS GENETIC/ INSTINCT. Some have it some do not. The ones that Have It are worth GOLD, others you can hardly give away. 2 - watch different breeds work, they are all bred to work and do things differently. Cattle dogs work different than catahoulas than aussies than bcs. When you mix working styles never know what you will get. 3 get the right tool for the job - dont get in over your head or put the dog in over its head - working stock in a team effort that takes both partners knowing what to do. Training takes time for both of you.
Cattle dogs drive stock, aussies drive stock, bark some, move stock by their movement, prefer to work close to you and the stock, houlas are brush/hunting hounds and good for getting cattle out of brush by barking. Not so good in corrals unless you want crazy scared cattle. Border Collies can gather and drive, no bark, move stock by intimidation and anticipating the stock ie being in the right place at the right time. Good ones will head and heel when needed from confidence and strength but are not gripping just cause or because they are worried like many dogs. Like anything need to find the lines that have the disposition to work cattle well.
Working stock is not about obedience, training is not about about obedience. A good stock dog is born, not trained or made. Training is about putting words to what the dog does naturally, to what it is born knowing. it is about helping the dog discover its instincts, strengths and helping it deal with areas where it struggles. No perfect dog, no perfect handler. It is about your relationship with that dog and respect for each other but you have to have the right tool for the job.
Your not going to hammer in a screw, it is a waste of time, effort, money. Good dogs will teach you things about stock and stock work and yourself.
If you want to watch good dogs work doing farm chores, MO has two of the best stock dog trainers in the world.
I posted this above but it shows dogs gathering a large flock from over head which is cool.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/career-canines-dog-rich-pedigree-born-herd...
Edited by denice.r 1/4/2018 17:31
|
|
| |
|
ok | Thank you Denise. Is there any videos you would recommend for myself and or the pup/me? I'll admit I know nothing about what I'm saying but I really think my pup has it in him. I have personally watched both parents work. The mother was rather gripy rough I thought but the dad was fluid in motion very calm. Both dogs obeyed very well. |
|
| |
|
NEMO | HARMANFARMS - 1/4/2018 07:57
you have mail
Was this to me or someone else? |
|
| |
|
NEMO | Thanks for all the responses.
I will probably need more training than the dog! |
|
| |
|
south east Indiana | It is hard for me to explain the intricacies involved in training a dog. Like I said it is not about obedience but most people train that way making the dog very mechanical. Come here, go there, do this. For this to work the dog must be where you can see it and YOU have to know the correct thing to ask /tell the dog and the dog must obey. It makes you responsible for every step the dog makes.
Not sure about you but my dog knows more about stock and how they move and can anticipate where he needs to be and be there before I know to ask him. They have 100's of years of being selected for the job I am wanting them to do, they are born knowing it. With the right dogs training becomes 20% of the equation, with less talented ones it becomes 90%. I can not train well enough to replace instinct.
Training and SHAPING instinct educates the dog in such a way you encourage them to use what are they born knowing about stock and stock movement to your benefit. Training this way allows you to Trust your dog across the creek, over the hill behind the herd when you can not see it much less tell it the right thing to do.
In all honesty I have never seen another breed of dog or an individual dog that has as much talent/instinct/ability as Border Collies. It is as simple as there are many parts of the world that use these dog for ACTUAL WORK so the breeding has been to enhance this and protect this quality. Other breeds that instinct has been bred OUT of the breed because other traits have been selected for. Why do you smooth coated,rough coated a ton of sizes and colors of bcs - because 'a look' has not been selected for. If I did not have a bc I would next look at Kelpies because they also have been selected for real work. Sending time and money learning with a dog that has talent and potential will get you farther faster more economical than working a mediocre dog that will never be great. Learned that lesson, but it took me years.
I know this is not a popular idea among cattle guys, but it is true. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong with their dog.
Training using instinct means you have to understand it and the way dogs think. Each brings their own personality, strengths and challenges with them.
You have to know and see in a second what the dog Needs...encouragement, time to think, correction. You have to be aware of what the stock and what you are 'Saying" with position, tone, look... It is as little as an eye flick or tail lift, of turn of head that clues you in on what the dog needs and why he is doing what he is doing. This is HUGE. It takes time and practice to see it and know how to respond. You CAN"T (or least I can't)just watch it and repeat it, you have to be in the trenches doing it and fail a 1000 times till it clicks.
I LOVE the training process but even with the 18 yrs of doing this I still don't see everything I need to. Still learning myself, each dog teaches me something new. There are 100 videos on my you tube site. If you go to Clearfield Stockdogs- working border collies they are there, the older site is linked there CS stockdogs maybe. These are just training videos, nothing fancy. Harder than heck to work a young dog and train at the same time. All the tings I do with a young dog will effect their work once in the pasture on a large group. I just break it down into baby steps. If you watch some of them I am giving instruction from the side lines to correct/ help the dog/handler that is working. I am able to see little things that need fixed that if left will only cause trouble down the road. if you go back to the Early videos you will see the quality of my dogs have improved over the years, the genetics are better. I have learned to search for better lines, dogs with more potential and more talent.
You will see Marco - a dog I started on sheep that works on a stocker operation. Now Jeff does not ask for Marco to work to a high standard that I would but the dog does a good job. Jess and Kitt are his pups from a litter this spring. A couple ag talkers have pups also as do a few others. All those pups are working, some sheep , some cattle. IVY has lots of videos of her working.
As far as training video Elvin Kopp has about the best series "training the working stockdog" I don't agree with everything but it is pretty good. Dereck Scrimgeour has two good ones - a shepherd pup and training border collies I think. Both older tapes, his newest one with a red cover I don't like, does not show enough of the dog.
Trainers - I could more easily tell you who to avoid than you is good that works with several breeds. I would start with Angie - Cocker Sells in OK. I really do not know her, never seen her train so i am a bit hesitate. Laura Hicks is north of Martin SD but not sure how much training time she has these days, Allison Jarrard is in the kaycee WY area. Both of those gals I can 100% I trust, again both have bcs
Edited by denice.r 1/5/2018 07:42
|
|
| |
|
ok | Again thank you for your response. I will look into the videos. I don't need a wonder dog. I juat want to be able to call him on/off . Not chase them/bark when not needed and such. Again. Thank you for your service! |
|
| |
Cattle Dog Trainers
