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NE SD | We've been having a hell of a time getting the planter to go in the ground with out running absurdly amounts of downpressure. I know Jim posted earlier in the year how a particular individual not far from here with the same planters was running 300lbs of downpressure. We've found that in no-till conditions, we have to run 300lbs or so to get the planter in the ground, and 200lbs or so in stubble we've used the Super Coulter on. I know some thought the answer was to hang weights on the outer end, and that might have to be done yet before we get into hour gumbo type soils planting beans, but this isn't just a problem on the end, it's a problem in the center too............the whole planter. I haven't taken a tape measure to the bar yet, but I'm going to guess that when I do tomorrow, it's going to be at about 23-25" from the planting depth........or basically too high.
From what I've always been told, the parallel links on planters are supposed to run level with the ground. In order for us to ge the units in the ground and get the gauge wheels up to the stops, we have to run this high pressure and the links are running nowhere near level. Has anyone seen anything like this? There are no adjustments on the wheel weldments to raise or lower the planter any. Planter tech guy at the dealership says that all the DB planters they have out have been this way, even the 30" machines.
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Claremont,MN | I think your problem is in what you are trying to do. every planter clinic we have went to they have told us to make the planter run level or slightly up hill even. what they are talking about is the row unit not the parallel linkage. I don't think your need your parallel linkage to be strait as a mater of fact at the clinics we have always been told that you should be able to turn your gauge wheel by hand after planting a little ways and stopping. you only need enough down pressure to get the disk openers to stay in the ground at a constant depth |
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| I'm totally stupid about this sort of thing as I have no experience in it. But, gosh, the soil sure looks like its in great shape. It's amazing that it would take that kind of pressure to penetrate.
Hope you get it fixed. Rig sure looks good sitting there. If you get any more time for pics, one from the front and back with it in the ground would sure be apreciated. I'll put it on my desktop for background wallpaper. |
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| Your parallel linkage looks right to me. I've always been told they should run slightly uphill. Kind of hard to tell exactly what is going on when planter is stopped. Best advice is to have someone run it at field speed while you walk along side and see if guage wheels are running on the ground. They do not have to be tight to the ground but then you don't want them riding up loose all the time either.
It looks like you are makeing furrows? Is there a reason for that? Those row cleaner making furrows like that are going to take a LOT of down pressure. I would try raising them up to just brush a little residue off then all you will be pushing in the ground would be the front coulter and the opening blades. That should require 1/3 the downpressure you are needing set like it is now. |
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Leesburg, Ohio | Chad: It appears to me that you have the no-til coulter buried. Is there a reason for that? The rule of thumb on coulters is run them just a bit shallower than seed depth, and let the seed openers do the final bottom for consistent depth. There should be some adjustment for the coulter relative to the unit depth. I would agree with the prior post regarding row cleaners...run them at the surface so they are just brushing aside surface trash and large clods...they shouldn't even be turning all the time. Maybe it's because I don't know your soils and local needs, but I don't like to plant in a furrow. To avoid that, I took all the down pressure off my units in conventional/min-till, and only apply the first notch of down pressure on no-til. This might not work for you...just my .02 FWIW.
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NE SD | I'm sorry guys, that photo is a poor representation of the conditions. It happens to be in a low spot which was super soft. The coulters are set to run where they're supposed to. The trash whippers are all the way up.............well maybe I could squeak another 1/8" out of them but then they would be rubbing the coulter arms. I don't have any good pictures of the normal conditions, but it is better than that. It's wet enough here right now, we HAVE to run the coulter ahead of the planter or we still wouldn't be going. That particular spot where I stopped would have done nothing but mud up the planter if the coulter hadn't gone through there a half a day earlier. If we run any less pressure than the stated pressures, than the gauge wheels don't run up to the stops. They just run about 1" below the stops and slap the heck out of them. We always felt the wheels should run on or slightly off of the stops but not slammed down to the ground. Like I said before, it does it in the center too, so it's a problem over the whole width not just on the ends due to lack of weight. From what I've observed thus far, it is seeming to be a toolbar height issue to me.
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | Chad,
I would not worry about your parallel links running "level" that will vary as the frame height varies, which it will on any planter when going over widely varying soil surfaces. And the soil surface's ability to support the transprot tire loads will vary enormously between you "supercoultered" ground and your notill ground.
Every planter designed in the US in recent years started out on a drawing board with a horizontal ground line and the bottomof the 7x7 frame tube 20" up from that. At that point, if the soil is a perfectly hard flat surface and I believe 2" seed depth the parallel links were drawn as "level".
There was some concern about running the links near level so the down pressure springs had about the designed force. However one advantage of the airbag system is that the down pressure the airbags apply is relatively constant throughout the range of the parallel linkage vertical travel.
So forget about keeping the parallel links level. Our primary concern here is maintaining the desired and consistent SEED DEPTH both across the width of the planter on all rows and also as you go through different soil conditions from one end of the field to the other.
In your photos the coulter (which some here may not realize is NOT on the seed centerline but 2" on the far side of the seed in our Dawn 2003 Narrow row combo pictured on your 20" rows) appears to be in the middle of the three vertical holes which puts the bottom of a new blade approx 1/8" above the bottom of new vee openers on a JD planter. Your coulter is NOT too deep but right where it should be.
The generic problem we were discussing on the Bauer bars (and other brands also) and especially on the CCS version which have a large amount of weight in the center an relatively light (per foot of width) wings when the row units are on the ground, is that it is difficult to level the planter across its WIDTH in many field conditions, and especially on 20" rows and harder ground/heavy stalks.
I believe the airbags, in your case 36 of them, are all teed together so there is approx the same air pressure all the way across.
The problem usually shows up as seed on top of the ground on the OUTSIDE rows only. The operator then increases the air bag pressure trying ot PUSH the row units down. And the result is that the heavy center section row units ARE in fact forced down but the OUTER row units just lift the relatively light ends of the toolbar out of the ground more and you STILL have insufficient seed depth on the outer end rows while the center rows may be digging ditches.
The planter needs to be leveled across its width as best as possible.
Tomorrow I suggest you pull into a typical section of the field, start planting until things settle in to equilibrium and then stop.
Take a tape measure and measure from the underside of the 7x7 frame to the average soil surface inline with several seed rows across the width of the planter. The actual height measured is not that important IF it is greater than 20" and not more than about 23". If you see large differences typically the ends of the wings will be higher and the middle/center section lower.
In fact I had to work with a 1770NT 24R30" planter near Redfield the other day to adjust the frame heiight - we moved the axle bolts on 8 wheels! Many of the NT's with CCS have (or SHOULD have) the wings wheels set in different holes than the center wheels.
Deere ships them all in the same holes which looks level sitting on concrete floor but when you get to the field in softer wetter conditions as you are seeing, with full seed and refuge hoppers on the center frame the center sinks in more and viewed from the front or rear the planter frame is like a gull wing shape rather than straight across. Often the center section tires need to be mounted one hole lower (thereby raising the planter center section) tyhan the wings. Or raise the outer wing tires one hole if that is easier.
On your Bauer bar there IS some adjustment. If you look at the two large lift cylinders in the center there are two different height holes that you can mount the butt end of the cylinder in. This will have the effect of raising the center section relative to the wings when the planter is lowered. It is NOT an easy job to change. You may not need to change unless you are seeing big differences in frame height between the center and the wings .
Overall in your second picture that looks like a good job of seeding IF your seed depth is where you want it (1-3/4"??) and consistent across all rows across the planter. The row units SHOULD be all set in the same depth setting and, as another poster points out, the gage wheels should be solidly on the ground but NOT so heavily that you can't turn them with a bit of effort.
The airbag system is in my opinion a mixed blessing. One should almost NEVER EVER NEVER be running more than about 85 psi in the airbags - more than that and you might as well have welded the parallel links.
Typically you can do a good job of seeding in most conditons with 35psi in worked ground and 50-60psi in no-till.
With 36 row units on 20" when they are on the ground there is not enough frame weight per foot on the wings of the single frame DB60 to use any more than about 90 psi. Any more than that and you are just lifting the outer ends of the wings, and the more pressure above that you add the farther towards the center you start lifting. This is why your neighbor has 1200 lb or so of weights on the ends of his.
If you do NOT focus on parallel link position but instead on seed depth consistency, you will get to the true situation.
One point I bring up for comment. I was at a large customers place near Desmet, SD the other day where they were busily running a tillage tool back and forth across bean stubble and muddy soil "to dry it out" supposedly. The surface DID appear to be drier where the tool had been run. It "looked nice".
However while digging to check seed depth and spacing I noticed that there was an EXTREMELY hard soil layer just beneath the loose surface and right about at seed depth. I could barely get my pocketknife blade into this layer. Moving to several different spots it appeared to be wide spread. I don't know for sure if this hard layer was caused by the tillage tool or some other cause.
20" customers especially, in an attempt to deal with larger and largr amounts of tougher corn residue and on narrow rows with nowhere to move it as in strip till, are increasingly moving to one of various tillage tools try to manage all the residue. It may have some other unintended consequences. I have some photos from my recent trips which I will try to organize and post soon.
Overall, Chad, unless you are seeing seed depth problems I would just plant. If you are seeing some seed depth issues there are several possible causes both planter and NON-PLANTER related.
Very nice meeting with you and other NAT folks over the past couple weeks.
Sorry for the length but lots to discuss. How is your seed depth??? reducing the air bag pressure would reduce the ridges a bit but no reason to be afraid to scoot residue to the side. Problem may be that you need the air pressure to penetrate the pan below the loose stuff left by a tillage tool???
With the wet conditions we are seeing in many areas, especially yours, I think there is a good case for looking into strip till, in the fall if possible in SD, ND & MN cornstalks or heavy wheat and 30" rows. Bean stubble and any ground not stripped in the fall can usually be covered far enough ahead of planting in the spring so it will dry out for planting.
above as always is jmho.
Jim at Dawn
Edited by Jim 5/7/2006 03:55
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | Chad,
This is a followup to my longer post and your later comment -
What is changing the toolbar height going to do for you??? As long as you are within the working range and not on the travel stops, the airbags have nearly the same down pressure through the range.
We could also send you a couple of our new smaller 12.75 dia forged wheel which will let you raise them up a significant amount more but not clear as wide a path.
If you have a chance, please feel free to call me tomorrow afternoon. I think you have my cell number - use the 605- one.
Please check for a very hard layer just below the surface also. I quickly dug out the photo I took the other day near DeSmet SD in just-tilled residue which had not yet been planted. We were checking seed depth problems and moved over to where the next pass would be.
Customer increased air bag pressure on his 1770NT 30" planter and was able to get the seed to depth but it was tough.
May be related to your situation?? Unless the problem is just on the ends of your planter I don't see where it is a frame height issue.
Jim at Dawn
Here is the photo. By the time we scoot the loose residue to the side that pan is right at seed depth. It may have been caused by something else. I've seen tillage used in the fall in corn stalks without this type problem is it related to use in wet soil & bean stubble in the spring?
Edited by Jim 5/7/2006 03:58
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NE SD | Jim,
Part of the reason we are having to run the Super Coulter is to cut up the corn stalks/residue. The cornstalks in the bean residue are 2 years old and they are still TOUGH. I can see now why "AS" runs his Super Coulter over everything in the fall. We are having issues with the the planter plugging with residue and pushing if we don't run the super coulter over some of the fields. The fields that haven't had corn on them for several years aren't a problem. We never had problems like this with our other planter...........but we also never had any super wet springs when we had it either. The residue is in such a mat, it is peeling off of the ground like paper w/ the trashwhippers. It just hangs up between the units and starts pushing. In the second field I was in today, it was such a problem slowing down to less than 4mph still pushed some. That particular field was probably the most fit for planting I have been in yet.
I measured the toolbar today in a good no-till field, and it measured 23.5-24" all the way across. The wings WERE NOT up any compared to the main frame. Here is a photo of the field in particular. I had to run just a hair over 300lbs to maintain seed depth. 
As you can see by this photo, the units are running pretty deep. This is placing the seed about 2" deep. 
I can see 30" rows again in our future. We're just not convinced for sure whether we want to switch back, because if we don't go strip till, we don't see it as being worth the switch. As you and I discussed, our reason for switching to strip till would be more or less for fertility reasons.......and saving fertilizer. BUT, we want to see some data...........some actual physical data before we do anything. Data spanning at least two years showing that cut rates can be run with strip till and achieve the same or better yields as our no-till methods, all the while not depleting the ground. We also somewhat like the idea of deep banding (sub 8-10") the fertilizer in the fall. I know that goes against your principles Jim, but we still would like to see some data. Marc is giving me some info and I plan on going down to their field day this fall. We'd like to talk to some more guys on this locally, and probably a couple of your customers. Did any of the guys switch from a mole knife to your units? I thought I remembered you saying one of the guys from Hazel did. We'll get a hold of you sometime this summer and then we'll maybe make contact with "TW" and the other two(Yeah I already forgot their names, I'm horrible about that).
Thanks,
Chad
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NE SD | Pokey,
I put some pictures up on my page. If you want to go there and grab them that is fine with me. When you select an image to view, you can look down at the very bottom of the page and select "original size" and then it will be blown up nice and big. That should look better shrinking it to your screen rather than trying to enlarge one. There are several there, take your pick. Sorry they are so bright. I seem to get my best photos looking away from the sun in the evening but I was in and out of the tractor enough this evening without taking pictures. |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | Chad,
I was in the field with AS recently and at least the field we were in had NOT had a super coulter or any other tool in there. Frankly we were clearing a much better, cleaner path than you show in your picture.
I was with another customer in WI having trouble recently - terrible seed placement etc.
He was running 3 coulters first on a cart, one down the center one about 4-5" either side of the row. immediate attached was his planter with a JD single disc fertilizer coulter then our unit mounted trashwheels and Curvetines in the back.
I have never seen so many coulters on one machine in my life! This is is first season with 3-coulter cart ahead of his planter.
We were in very heavy wet clay with lots of bean abd 2 yr old corn stalks.
Allthose wavy coulters up front were just hairpinning and mixing all this residue into mud and we just could not pull it out with the Trashwheels. Finally we raised the 3-coulters out of the way so we were only using the JD single disc + our Trashwheels and the Curvetines.
The single disc fert coulter cut the residue without hairpinning or mixing up a residue/mud "soup".
The seed placement improved, there was a nice clean strip and the residue was between the rows not all mixed in just ahead of the planter.
All those aggressive wavy coulter devices just ahead of the planter may serve a useful purpose in some soils and moisture levels. however in heavy residue and heavy wet soils I think they are making life more difficult than it needs to be. They were bring up mud that was better off left untouched where it was. The driest, fittest soil you have in these conditions is on the surface, why bury it or mix it with mud and residue???
Please take a look at Marc's strips. There is another customer on the east side of the same town as Marc just south of you who is running an 8-row Pluribus also. Please check with AS. I do not think he uses a super coulter. He has some very high residue levels.
The fall super coulter I am thinking of is in the Groton area with a different 20" customer. The customer I am thinking of runs his in cornstalks in the fall, not ahead of planting in the spring, as I recall. We have worked with him for years. He has the same 2003 setup you do.
How about ou try a small field doing nothing ahead of the planter - just plant - and see how it comes out.
The 23-24" toolbar height is about what I expected from your parallel link photo. The 300 number - is that pounds of down pressure ( I hope!) and not 300 psi of air pressure. 300 lb of down pressure sounds about right. It is also taking every bit of weight on that planter. I am glad to here it is level across its width.
Harvesting 20" beans that have been notilled between 20" cornstalks with a cutting platform (with a std 3" knife system!!!) generally takes care of much corn residue when it runs thru the combine chopper IF you leave much of the corn stalk standing after corn harvest. Here again the whole thing is a SYSTEM. If you somehow leave most of the stalks on the ground it forms an insulating mat and may not break down for a long, long time also leaves more mud underneath. Your comment about "residue coming up like a mat" sounds like that scenario.
Gearge Rehm at the Univ of MN has done a lot of fertilizer work. He says his research has shown that you can often cut fertilizer by more than 1/3 if it is placed in a band or strip where and when the plant needs it.
I would try to clear the strip better if you can. I'll post some photos I took with AS recently. They are on a different computer.
Regards,
Jim at Dawn
Edited by Jim 5/8/2006 03:00
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Aberdeen MS | Chad,
Around here, although very few have had the "gumption" to attempt it and use the practise, banding fertilizer and reducing rates has been promoted for close to 20 years. Think about this for a few minutes and look "deeper" into the situation, rather than just looking at the surface and what "has been" said for years and years. Local dealers are still all about volume going out of the plant while giving lip service to most, and attempting to thwart
With a dry fertilizer program (or non ortho products) only 20% of applied nutrients are available for the plant in application year. Lets take a somewhat normal (for here anyway) rate of say 50 P and 75 K. 20% of each is 10 P and 15 K. Now I have never been a proponent for the "specialty" products such as Nachurs or Conklin (the only ones that come to mind this morning), but by utilizing a product such as that, placing it "in strip", you basically are applying/utilizing the same amount of nutrients.
The key factor that needs to be watched is your base fertility of the field. If your levels are already high, one "should" be able to go for a number of years before drastic results MIGHT be seen. I've heard that (in our conditions here anyway) that drastic depletion of K levels in the field could take 15 - 20 years spoon feeding in that type of fashion.
It falls into the components of the SYSTEM of strip tilling. A more "micro management" of field fertility is required than when doing the conventional route of broadcast and tillage. Some are willing/able to do that, others are not. But one has more time in say late June/early July (ideal time to sample) and put a plan together than in the spring or fall. Farming is still a business, don't fall into the mind set I've heard from many about the savings of time etc leaves them more time to play. It's difficult to get away from the theory and practise that after the crop is planted and sprayed, farming is "done" till fall. Most on this board do not hold that theory, but in reality, the majority of growers in general do and set their system of farming up for that mind set.
When talking with George Rehms at the Conference in SF this winter, I posed the question to him of how much N could be laid into the strip with no detriment to seed/seedling burn using 28%. Utilizing a 3 point application on the Pluribus (one down the middle and 2 on the outside of the coulters using a stream nozzle), he concluded a 140# N rate would have no detriment, only time caution was warranted was a dry year (which is about 1 in 10 here, maybe). Then a 2-3 day wait after stripping would be possibly be warranted. So a complete nutrient package could be applied in spring with the strip till unit at the time of stripping. That saves an application via a floater and/or side dressing.
You may want to mark your calender for the end of July (I can't remember the dates but I know Jim has it marked on his calender). There will be a field day in Lamberton/Waseca around the 26 or 27 if memory is correct, focusing on conservation practises put on by the U of M. |
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NE SD | Jim,
That field pictured just above is a NON- Super Coultered field. The row cleaners behind the tractor had balled up from a soft spot I had just gone through, and what you are seeing is the worst part. What I'm wondering, is if those handy trash wheel scrapers on your strip till rigs can be utilized on this thing. Seems like the ends of the wings and right behind the tractor from soft spots is always "balling up". One thing, AS is running in ground that's a lot dryer up by Aberdeen this year than we are down here. He always runs the Super Coulter over most of the fields down this way in the fall............and he's running it ahead of his planters down here over the last couple days. Looks to me like we're not the only ones having this problem. Remember, we were wetter than them up that way all last summer and had a lot more moisture this spring. |
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| Chad,
This won't be in any certain order. This is our first spring with a 1770 ccs 16-30's. We've got Yetter shark tooth trash cleaners with depth bands with Deere's 13 wave coulter inbetween them. To get 2" deep which we consider the minimum to plant corn to keep the brace roots from coming out on top of the ground we were set similar to yours. I think I had 2 holes on one side and on on the other under the T handle. Our bar did sit lower than yours, when in the ground the parallel bars on the linkage were close, but not quite horizontal, just, just barely pulling up hill a small amount. In worked soil we could back off to about 60psi (don't know the lbs) In notill I had it above 90 psi which I think is the 300 lb mark without going out to look. When I was running I kept looking at the row unit to see if it was flexing up and down easily and not being forced down so hard it would not work. I never did get the pressure so high that it didn't seem to be able to easily flex over the land. I also watched the guage wheels, especially on some rougher ground and higher speeds. If I lowered the pressure very much I could see them start to bounce more but the row unit was not moving up or down. At those times if I got out and looked the guage wheels were probably not touching much and there was very little track from them in the dirt behind the planter. I don't know if you can see it with the DB bar or if you'll have to have someone ride the planter to get a good look.
I don't have any answers about the trash problems, but I can see where it would be hard to handle with that spacing. I know friends who run 15's down here can sometimes have a very bad problem with trash or loose sand.
We tried to run some notill in bean stubble and while we had trouble getting the units into the ground it was because it was so dry down here. The ground dried out and got hard as a rock. Some of the true notill guys even quit planting because it was so dry. We farm beside some that have been notill for a long time and with all the fanfair about ground tilth etc I decided to look for myself to compare while we had some extreme conditions. I found their ground was just as hard as ours if we had not done anything to it, and ground that we had run a DMI2500 ripper across or even had just run a JD726 mulch finisher across earlier in the spring was in much better shape, had more moisture and was no problem to plant into. I was a little surprised that just running the narrow standard on the 2500 actually had affected the dirt all the way between them, but it's one of those things where I saw it for my own eyes.
Now to your fertilizer and thought about banding and strip till. We ridge tilled for about 10 years when at the time we had a much larger percentage of our groud that could be farmed straight. Through development from the cities our mix had changed to about 75% terraced land. At about the same time our mix was changing my wife got sick and during the time we were taking care of her farming became a "get it in the ground, get it sprayed, anyway, who ever we could find to run a planter, just get it done" thing. We had to plant to make a living, but it was at the bottom of the priority list. Just get it done and move on. Keeping a planter on ridges, especially on some curves is not something you can just throw someone into and get it done correctly. Now with such a high percentage of contours ridging is not an option for us.
That said from what I've seen of your pics if you've got a lot of fairly flat straight land I would look hard at some sort of ridges. A strip till on steroids if you want to call it that. While were were ridging we were running a Flexi Coil blowing dry to a DMI applicator and pulling a NH3 wagon behind it. We found that if we ran dead center on the row, especially on lighter, sandy soils we could very easily burn some roots off with the nh3. In our conditions we found we had to move at least 4" away from the row to get away from this root burn. The problem being without rtk and running in a separate operation maintaining a 4" buffer was very tough to do. Whenever we got closer it was really easy to find the stunted plants in the field. We had the applicator set with the knives to the outside on both halves so if we happened to slide one way or the other 8 rows would get further away and 8 would get closer and you could pick those spots out very easily.
We looked at a lot of research from our local Universities and from U of Minn. Short term there is no doubt you can cut rates with banded fertilizer. We ran some side by sides on our irrigated land. We found we could cut rates by 25% and still maintain yield, but if we had water we found we could keep the rate the same and increase yields 12 to 14 bpa in corn with yield levels in the upper 100's and low 200's. The research we had going all went up in smoke when my wife got sick.
Personally I don't think you can do this on a continueing basis and still maintain yields and/or fertility levels in your soil. The fellow we were working with here at KSU felt that long term continued use of rate reductions would eventually mine fertility out of the soil. It was explained to me that while banding may keep more fertilizer available to the plant now, if the plant uses that fertilizer then over the long run there will not be fertilizer added back into the soil chemistry and the levels of nutrients coming out of that chemistry and being available for the plant each year will start dropping. I hope that makes sense, in other words there is a cycle of nutrients being tied up and going through the process of becoming available again and if you shut off the front end, eventually it will show up at the back. I know that in Minnesota they have shown that while soil test levels may not drop there is a definate advantage to adding some potash to the mix even when it doesn't call for it.
Don't know if any of this will help with your conditions being so much different than ours, but I hope so.
Take care,
Ray |
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Anyone here run planters on Bauer Bars??? Jim you may want to jump in here as well......
