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 No till troubles in heavy clay (gumbo) Solil Life and othersJump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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iafarmerken |
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Western Iowa | I jumped into no till with both feet in the late 90's . I was continuous no till for the first 5 yrs. The trouble I had is early season soil temps in the spring on this heavy clay and the hardness of the ground. The soybean yields were ok but the corn yields took a hit. I have evolved to light disking in the fall on the bean stubble to help the soil warm in the spring, and leaving the cornstalks alone-notill the soybeans. This seems to work well for me. But.......I have heard of anaerobic and aerobic respiration in the soil. My question is - Am I confusing the microbes by switching tilling practices? My corn yields are great but the soybean yields have lots of room to improve. I have tracked down some problems with high pH being the cause (7.8). On those farms I am continuous corn until I get the pH lower(AMS?). One thing I noticed early is no matter what the crop, in the areas where I leveled ruts or endrows with the finisher the crop looked 2x better early season next to the no till. No diff in yield on soybeans but corn sometimes there was a 30 bushel diff! I bought a case 2500 eco till inline ripper to rip the corn stalks. This seemed ok but the gumbo doesn't heave and fracture like the compacted lighter soils. It just pulls like an anchor and smears around the shank. It feels like im wasting fuel. On the lighter soils it humps the ground up and cracks it every 3 feet and does a nice job. Both plant good in the spring. Anybody else give up on notill on heavy clay soils. I would be interested to hear on how to deal with compaction issues and emergence issues (especially corn). Strip till isn't an option...I have people in my area that strip till and their corn looked and yielded terrible this year. I can't afford that kind of investment for so so results. Thanks Ken | ||
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| Greywolf |
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Aberdeen MS | Any area can be "no tilled". 200 yrs ago something was growing there, it wasn't bare ground before ag production started. Problem is, we figure we have to grow crop X, Y, and Z because that's what everyone else does. But more correctly, those crops are the markets available locally to sell into. Corn by nature isn't suited for this part of the world when you get right down the base genetics. As you said, too cold of temps in the spring, then the lack of moisture. So we capture some radiant energy of the sun by having a dark surface to soak up the rays instead of a "whiter" surface (residue) that reflects the energy back up. Agronomically, corn can be grown successfully "no tilled", but at an economic cost. The net profit leads to tillage for a better profit. Some will say, "you aren't doing it right". But if you let the soil revert back to a more "natural state", it won't grow the crops you want to grow profitably. Kind of like forcing a square peg into a round hole. It can be done, but it won't be a good fit. Force it too hard, you loose some peg, use a smaller peg, you aren't filling the hole all the way. Making the best use of what you have and be complacent is about all you can do. It doesn't mean you failed, regardless of what any "expert" hundreds of miles away from you say. Strip till may still work for you. Remember I said "may". It also may not. I can't say sitting here in MN with 3" of snow on the ground and thump my chest to you in IA. There are 18 manufacturers of equipment, one will be a better fit for your local than another. But then, they might not. It isn't an overnight conversion success, it's a process. Ag production cost $$. Just have to pick where you spend it and where you save it. Edited by Greywolf 11/13/2010 09:39 | ||
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| soil-life |
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North Central Ohio, across the Corn belt ! | IT sounds Like You are Finding what works for YOU, on Your farm in Iowa Soil Microbes are just that, regardless of tillage, No till, if all else is =
No-Till Failures on heavy CLAY, For Many reasons 1. Lack of fundamental and basic Soil Chemistry and management skills. 2. Delusional Expectations, usually from Mythical and or a Lack of Adequate, or Miss information received from magazines, Extension and Chemical Co. meetings supporting and sponsoring the No Till Movement. NO TILL IS BIG BUCKS FOR the Market , Insecticides, Fungicides, Specialty equipment, Equipment attachments, Specialty, High Mark up Fertilizers. etc. etc. etc. 3. Each and every situation is different and needs specific and Individual Management skills, Practices. 4. From My Person observations over the past 40 years many Farmers converting to No Till Had management and weed control issues to begin with. Some were Under capitalized. The Farmers that were Top Notch Managers, the Minority on Heavy Clay soils, did make No till work and are No tilling today. ( Some? Most of those Knife in NH3 so they are essentially Strip Tilling as far as I am concerned. ) 4. Many went into No-Till with soils that were Poorly drained, Low PH. or High magnesium, High Free Salts and Major soil Deficits and Imbalances. No ? or very Low soil Percolation and sever compaction issues in some areas. 5. soils with Underlying Blue or Grey Clay are NOT, In any way conducive to long term successful No Till Yielding Positive and Economic returns. 6. I feel it takes 3 to 6 years to get Some, certain and specific soils conditioned, ready for Productive, Profitable No till. True, NO-Till Takes very Top Notch management and at times, High input , Up front expenditures on these tight Clay soils. The management of Less, Little or Minimum Compaction is critical. The Management of Soil Oxygen and Soil Percolation are Critical. PH. soil Calcium, Soil Magnesium and P, Yes, good available P is so Very Critical. IT Can, and Does Take More $$$ inputs to grow a Bu. of any grain Under Pure, No-Till management systems on Heavy Clay, than with strip till, or conventional tillage systems.
( Warning ) A MUST, have the County come out and do a Soil Percolation Test, To determine the ability to proceed ahead ? and jump into No till. Or to Determine if you need to make some major changes and prepare for No-Till 3 to 5 years from Now. Now North central , Eastern Ohio soils into PA can work well for No-Till sucess South of, or close to Route 70 across the Corn belt has a MORE Favorable soil structure for No-Till Heavy Clay Content ??? North Central Ohio, Parts of Northern Indiana and parts of Wisconsin and Minnesota, Beware If You have good natural drainage, Good to High Balanced fertility, High Soil Humus- Organic Soils, High content of Sand and Silt soils. Then NONE of the Above is Relevant TO, or for YOU. Just my personal opinion from Personal observations John
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| iseedit |
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central - east central Minnesota - | Economics - now with $5+ dollar corn and $10+ dollar beans, one or more bushels increase in yeild can make plowing difficult soils and residue more cost effective then when grains paid less and yeild wasn't as much a concern . . . . | ||
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| iafarmerken |
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Western Iowa | As I am out there disking the heavy clay, i find myself wanting to beat the crap out of the ground......deep rip. I need to get air down in the soil to fluff and make a good warm seed bed in the spring. It just is the place my mind always ends up as the solution to getting the stuff to produce. I have worked hard on drainage and soil fertility. One thing I cannot get a handle on is magnesium. I am loaded with it on the heavy clay. Its kind of funny....the ground that can be easily tilled like keg or silt loam is the ground that notill is easiest to practice in my opinion. VS the ground that is a fuel nitemare to work and manage is the hardest to get a handle on notill. They heavy clay in my area has been a struggle to manage for 100yrs. People have fought it, worked with it, practically begged it to cooperate. For a few years calcium was the magic bullet. Now hardly anyone uses it. Its hard to ignore the fact that it always looks the best in the spring after you have treated it like crap in the fall and lightly hit it with a cultivator before planting. Its beautiful when it is worked when dry in the spring. But it doesnt take long for it to firm up and by July you cant shove your plier handle in the ground more than two inches without using a hammer. I am thankful for the people on this site that "give up" their knowledge that you take years for me to lean by myself. Ken | ||
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| Mlebrun |
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SW MN and Gold Canyon AZ | Interesting posts, its a definate "here" thing. Soil-life the comment on blue or gray clay sure fits sw mn. add to that the buffalo ridge elevation ,cooler temps cloudy weather and you have a recipe for disaster on no-till. it would take ALOT of management to make no-till work here including waiting maybe for the perfect conditions to plant. I don't have that patience.5 days here can mean the difference between having frosted corn before blacklayer or not. Having everyhting pattern tiled would make things alot easier but I know on rented ground thats probably not going to happen. Go 25 to 50 miles south and west and no-till or forms of it will probably work better, but then they have the LOESS soils and warmer temps that anyone in my area would love to have. Before anyone chastisis me on that comment, I HAVE tried it, for several yrs just cound not make the planter"attachments" work in sticky cold soils. Getting in and out of the tractor 100 times a day to clean out sticky soil isn't fun.Looking back maybe a light fall till'disk" might have solved alot of problems. But my operation has changed from the days of a 6 row planter with starter attachments and a host of other no-till attachments to a bare bones 16 row planter get the corn in the ground so I can haul seed. Managing residue is now key for me, and with all the manure I haul, I got plenty. One pass field cultivate in the spring does all I need to do to make things work right. Tile on rented ground would solve alot of problems with production. | ||
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| notilltom |
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Oswald No-Till Farm Cleghorn, IA | Reading your post Greywolf was like seeing my own thoughts. You really nailed it on the topic of "pre-farming" soils vs. the crops we attempt to grow today. I would argue that we are really screwy in trying to grow a warm season grass by planting in the cool season (spring) on wet soils that can/will dry out during the reproductive phase of the crop. We then sometimes are trying to harvest that crop during a cool/wet season (fall 2009). The evolution of the crops we grow is a function of the commodity programs and non-agronomic market forces with technology such as breeding seed products thus allowing the crop to be grown in areas in some cases marginally suited for that crop. It's still tough to grow corn in 60 frost free days even if there were a seed product in the catalog. If memory serves, Dwayne Beck once made a comment about the new "drought resistance" GMO lines of corn...... maybe instead of spending serious bucks for technology to try to make corn grow in dry arid climates we should look at better using crops we have like milo? Of course, I don't know the tech fee structure of milo but I doubt it is that great. If we are going to use land for energy crop production using the solar collector known as leaf area as the primary factory, I have to wonder if it will cause us to look to alternative crops rather than ones requiring high input of cash for seed technology, herbicides, tillage, and to some degree fertilizers. On strip till and tillage in general, you are hitting the nail on the head. | ||
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| notilltom |
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Oswald No-Till Farm Cleghorn, IA | Though I have never farmed them, I understand that one of the toughest soils is the Luton gumbo type. I have an uncle who farmed in Monona county and know some other guys who farm up and down the Mo. River bottom as well. As I understand it, you are better off with some sand and a pivot than trying to farm the gumbo in dryland fashion. The workable moisture range of that soil and available soil moisture is rather narrow due to a high soil moisture wilting point of those clays. When I sold Pioneer, some of the other guys in my sales district were from Monona county and I would hear interesting stories about how a parabolic shank ripper would start soils cracking and heaving right behind the duals of the tractor. We bought a used IHC 501 "plowing" tandem from Onawa back when we were still doing a two pass disk-rip system on our stalks. I believe the prior owner used it on everything including soybean stubble.. Guys often tell me those are "dinner bell" soils in the spring..... before the bell rings they would be too wet, after the bell stopped ringing they would be too dry. One thing I never quite understood was the lister method of plowing out the dry soil and slicing the seed into the gumbo below. I understand it was used a lot in that area years ago. I remember my uncle having a 4 row mounted lister on an "M" Farmall with supporting equipment like a seed row roller to pack the furrow shut and a pull type "Go-Devil" cultivator for weed control. But, it seemed to work for guys as I remember. It was a controlled traffic strip system. Surface drainage is the norm as tile performance isn't good as I understand it so draining water "through" the soil isn't a practical solution where it isn't sandy. With good drainage underneath (tile or natural), heavy soils will no-till/strip till well but you don't have that option on Luton types. So, does that mean that I think no-till will always "fail" in your area compared to a heavy tillage system..... certainly not because tillage done wrong (and those soils are easy to do wrong) isn't successful either. I think it will take more time to find the right fit. My guess is that it will take some form of strip-till so you have the benefit of soil structure to support equipment and the benefit of a low impact tilled zone for planter operations and crop establishment. Keeping some structure in the system should be important in soils that tend to collapse and become concrete when it dries out. I sincerely think that adapting low/no-till crop management to the soils any farmer is blessed or cursed with is doable. But, like fighting disease like cancer, figuring it out can take more than one person's lifetime in tough soils like you have there. I am thinking that some innovative cover crop strategies might benefit the soil by adding more roots to the system to keep it open as well. I wish I could help with more and better suggestions but I only know your area by the perspective of outside looking in. As someone passionate about the fundamentals of low-no-till farming, I appreciate your willingness to try the practices and ask questions in an attempt to adapt systems to your situation. Best of luck, Tom | ||
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| DaveVR ONT |
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Chatham Ontario (1 hr east of Detroit) | What works the best for ME ,HERE,on my clay soil is a four year rotation.Wheat ground is plowed with a red clover cover,leveled,p,k,lime,are spread according to soil tests for 1 yr corn and 1yr soybeans,worked in once with a field cultivator.In the spring corn is stale seedbeded with a dry starter making sure I have at least 30lbs N in the 2x2 band,followed by 2 yrs no-till soybeans(2nd year beans some p,k based on crop removal)then no-till winter wheat(I like the 2 yr beans as it gets me farther away from the corn crop and disease issues).Thats whats been working for me HERE only twice in the 15yrs ive been doing this notill beans behind cornstalks have taken a yeild hit and they were both cool yrs but on hot dry years the cornstalk beans were better so it all balances out.But again thats here on my soil. | ||
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| FarmerFrank |
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NE Iowa | I think Mleburn, pretty well sums up why notill doesn't work. Quote: "But my operation has changed from the days of a 6 row planter with starter attachments and a host of other no-till attachments to a bare bones 16 row planter get the corn in the ground so I can haul seed. " We notill and it does work, but I know that(and have told the boys) if we would chisel behind the combine, put down NH3 on half the acres in the fall, or on a year like this all the acres, then on the first decent day next April we could go out and drag the finisher over ground that is too wet so it drys out and then start planting on ground that isn't fit underneath. JMO And it would grow corn also, without all the attachments on the planter and the time to set it right. Anyone can plant corn in a tilled feild. | ||
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| swne |
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Cambridge, southwestern Nebraska | I'm having similar problems and am trying a vertical disc on the stalks to warm up the ground. I think that is the real detriment to the beans. | ||
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| swne |
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Cambridge, southwestern Nebraska | Interesting comments, Greywolf. I guess I have been thinking along those same lines but never put it into words like you did. Thanks | ||
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| Mlebrun |
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SW MN and Gold Canyon AZ | I don't disagree with ya frank..I think everyone wants "simple" Examples of that are RR crops. Remember having to cultivate everything, riding beans for days on end. Roundup crops changed that. We are all farming more acres easier including myself. I can't imagine planting all my acres now with a 6 row. Although it takes awhile to set all the residue managers on a 16 row!!! Good thing kinze planters can be lifted up about chest high to me. Everyone wants to try LL soybeans but noone wants to clean out the sprayer. RR stacked with LL and everyone will be doing it. "simple" Planting into a field cultivated field is "simple"but mistakes can be made there also!! | ||
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| Steve E.C. Illinois |
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| When I sold seed years ago, a group of us went to an agronomy training day. The instructors were discussing planter attachments. This was about the time that Rawson was all the rage with two and three coulter systems. We were asking how the different configurations compared. One coulter, two, or three vs. residue wheels or possibly a combination of the two. When someone asked the question, what worked the best over a wide range of soils and conditions? An older farmer in the back said, just loud enough for those of us close to hear, " a field cultivator about 15 acres ahead of you". Everybody laughed, but thinking back at some of my attempts over the past years I can't say he was that far off. | |||
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| soil-life |
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North Central Ohio, across the Corn belt ! | Steve E.C. Illinois - 11/13/2010 16:19 When I sold seed years ago, a group of us went to an agronomy training day. The instructors were discussing planter attachments. This was about the time that Rawson was all the rage with two and three coulter systems. We were asking how the different configurations compared. One coulter, two, or three vs. residue wheels or possibly a combination of the two. When someone asked the question, what worked the best over a wide range of soils and conditions? An older farmer in the back said, just loud enough for those of us close to hear, " a field cultivator about 15 acres ahead of you". Everybody laughed, but thinking back at some of my attempts over the past years I can't say he was that far off. That was correct 40, 30, 20,10, Years ago as well as next spring will be | ||
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| R.W. |
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| No-Till Failures on... heavy CLAYand elsewhere 1. Yes is lack of chemistry knowledge and soil chemistry & soil texture, clay types and mineral concentrations. 2. Delusional (Unmet) expectations... Snap! Parking the tillage equipment doesn't prepare one to become successful farming without. The more successful No-tillers were likely in an earlier life some of the more successful tillage farmers. Farming inputs are a "big bucks" industry in general... priced a combine, planter, tractor etc. lately? I agree strip-till rigs promoted in AT and elsewhere along with HP requirements goes a long way to use up 179's limits. 3. Amen. Skill level, experience and commitment to the process change are key factors. This goes without saying with any process change. 4. Again right on. 5. High clay soild are a challenge. Blue clay is especially tough. Not impossible, renters likely lack capital and time needed. May be too many changes to economically turn the ship to make the needed improvements. 6. Transition time... directly related to starting point on key soil nutrient levels ie. Ca Mg and internal drainage condition. Your conclusion... bullseye! Adequate P levels usually not an issue, availability is from the deep tillage beating of several years. Bottomline to all this is what changes do you have available to improve your business model and profitability. My experience is that most do not have the slightest clue of their business operational financials. Ask a husband/wife farmers today that question... husband had a blank look and wife didn't know either, but at least showed enough interest to find out. | |||
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| bgunzy |
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Humeston, IA | Tom, I had to go look up the NRCS description of Luton. Here's a link: https://soilseries.sc.egov.usda.gov/OSD_Docs/L/LUTON.html Oftentimes, when describing a soil, competing soils will be listed, and how they are different than the subject. Luton has NO soil types like it! A level horizon - 40 to 75 percent clay. And I thought Wabash or Aholt was bad! | ||
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| Tom N |
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Missouri river bottom south of Sioux City, IA | Hi Bob There are different flavors of this “Luton” soil in this Missouri river bottom. In one of my fields you can occasionally find crawdad holes where you can check the water table by dropping a small dirt clod down the hole. It’s wet 8 years out of 10. On the other side I’ve grown 280 bushel corn on other “Luton” soils that have good drainage. The combination of high water tables and poor drainage makes it a real challenge to farm year after year. The key is getting good surface drainage established which is sometimes hard to do. Typically we have about 3 foot of fall in a mile around here. That’s less the ¾ of an inch per 100 feet. Soil compaction is the yield killer on this wet soil. To counteract that and other problems I’ve switched to strip-till and see no reason to quit. Do a internet search on “Strip-Till Mitigates River Bottom Soils Issues” and you’ll see why I’m pretty content. Oh by the way Tom Oswald and some of his good friends had a big influence on me to switch to strip-till. Thanks Tom!! Tom N. | ||
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| bgunzy |
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Humeston, IA | Is the "other" Luton an overwash? Yes, I can believe strip-till, especially with the RTK guidance you have, would be beneficial in that soil type. Was ridge-till or ridge-plant ever attempted, and how'd that work? | ||
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