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Can I cut alfalfa in am with dew on it?
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kimber55
Posted 4/28/2010 13:46 (#1178103)
Subject: Can I cut alfalfa in am with dew on it?


I want lower NSC alfalfa and want to cut in the morning. We have been having 45 degrees at night and 70s day. Lots of dew. Is there any negative to cutting alfalfa that is wet with dew?
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Badger
Posted 4/28/2010 14:48 (#1178148 - in reply to #1178103)
Subject: Re: Can I cut alfalfa in am with dew on it?


Huntley Montana
THat much more moisture to get rid of. Also lower sugars in the plant
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Hay Wilson in TX
Posted 4/28/2010 15:24 (#1178175 - in reply to #1178103)
Subject: NO !



Little River, TX
For one to accumulate NSC (sugars) you need sunshine to get your crop building sugars to replace the sugars burnt up over night.
Here, in Central Texas 31°N 97°W, I can accumulate roughly 8% NSCs by the time I cut, about 7 hours before sunset. Then the down hay will burn up about half of the accumulated NSCs before dark. In a my primary haying season ,my leaves will be dried down below 48% moisture effectively stopping respiration.
Your 45°F over night will also effectively stop respiration, over night. That much is good. Cutting early in the morning there will be no photosynthesis to build up your NSCs (sugars).

Reason one that dates before the AM PM cutting schedules is the moisture in the dew will allow any diseases present to be spread by your mower.

Reason two, has been mentioned, dew moisture in a windrow or swath dries slower than dew on a standing crop.

A methodology that works in the Humid East is to cut close to local solar noon, and follow the mower with a tedder to achieve 100% ground coverage with your swath. Plus it fluffs up the hay for better exposure to direct rays of the sun. The direct rays of the sun are responsible for 75% of hay curing. On a cloudy day hay dries slower.

I am assuming you are in the Humid East, and that you do not lay 280 acres of hay on the ground every day for two weeks running

The growers in the Arid West have a surplus of low humidity, dry ground, and stiff breezes so they do not NEED the 75% drying by the sun. Their challenge is to find enough humidity to be able to bale the hay with out shattering off 75% of the leaves.


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Hay Wilson in TX
Posted 4/28/2010 15:40 (#1178185 - in reply to #1178175)
Subject: A little further explanation



Little River, TX
A third of the moisture in hay can exit the hay the first day through the breathing holes in the leaves. If these holes stay open that is. Drop the hay in a windrow and these stomata (breathing holes) close up if there e is not light of some kind.
The direct rays of the sun heats the down hay increasing the vapor pressure, not steam but like steam, and that forces the moisture out the nearest openings.
If the stomata are closed the nearest opening may be you conditioning cracking in the stem or the cut but on the stem. The first day a lot of moisture can go out through the stomata, The second day the moisture all has to find a hole made by harvesting.
The last day of pure drying it makes little difference if the hay is out flat or in a windrow. This may mean it requires 4 or 5 days before the hay is ready to bale. If everything is swinging you can cut in the morning and bale about 2 am the next morning.
It all really is driven by the pan evaporation at your site during that time.

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kimber55
Posted 4/28/2010 15:46 (#1178189 - in reply to #1178148)
Subject: Re: Can I cut alfalfa in am with dew on it?


I want LOW sugar. I am not growing for cows, but horses with metabolic issues. We have to cut tomorrow and has to be up by Sunday. We do use a conditioner, but no preservatives (not my choosing). But need as much drying, sun time as possible.
It is a alfalfa/ orchardgrass mix.
Cutting earlier in the day gives more on the ground drying time and will cut before the sugars can spike. Around here 45 night and warm sunny days are death for grazing metabolically challenged horses.
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Badger
Posted 4/28/2010 16:21 (#1178205 - in reply to #1178189)
Subject: Re: Can I cut alfalfa in am with dew on it?


Huntley Montana
Maybe you need a more mature hay with more grass for those horses.  Sugars are the highest at dark in the eve. They go down @ night.  Immature hay has more nutrents per pound than mature hay.  Also Hay needs to go through it's "sweat"  ( about 2-3 weeks) befor feeding horses or they can get "loose".
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Hay Wilson in TX
Posted 4/28/2010 19:29 (#1178321 - in reply to #1178205)
Subject: RTDQ should have been my motto.



Little River, TX
Or I jumped to conclusion.
Be that as it may, Badger has it correct about more mature forages for less sugars.
Now I assume you are worried about foundering horses. Wish you would have said that to start with.

You are really growing the wrong forages if foundering animals is a problem. Cattle can also founder and do.

Tallgrass Neil should have the perfect answer for you. The perfect hay for a foundering equine is, after combining the seed off a range grass you bale it for that speciality market.

Unless you allow your grass and alfalfa both to mature to full seed, they will have more net energy than your customers need. What they need is Eastern Gammagrass or a Switch grass, and harvest it when it is ideal for the bio fuel market.

I assume your customer base's is calling the shots on your choice of forages. I have difficulty rationalizing a grass legume mix as it makes it a real challenge to have a consistent feed value product.

If you are in the Humid East and reasonably far north, timothy grass at full seed may be a sorry enough feed for a foundering animal.

As I understand foundering, the animal has just a little too much insulin. When the animals eat, and a horse will (has to) eat 18 hours a day. When some sugar gets into the blood stream their system dumps extra insulin into the blood stream. The extra insulin will cause the blood vessels co contract and restrict blood flow, especially in the extremities. As anyone who has had an arm or leg *Go to Sleep* knows when the blood starts circulating again it is painful. For this condition the discomfort persist for hours. An eventual effect is the blood supply for the hooves is inadequate and the hooves die. A real mess.

The problem with horses is they end up being family pets, they last with the owner for years and years and the horse industry is severely line breed. If your customers just like to feed horses have them only purchase mustangs. Mother Nature fairly well eliminates most inherited deformities.
It would be callous of me to suggest they dispose of their animals with inherited deformities and to buy a $200 BLM animal for $750 and feed them anything that they have on hand.

As a friend of mine says, a donkey is the better half of a mule !
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Hay Wilson in TX
Posted 4/28/2010 19:34 (#1178333 - in reply to #1178321)
Subject: Mowing with the dew on



Little River, TX
The reasons for not mowing when there is dew still on the forage still are valid. Diseases and extending the drying time mostly.

Assuming 2 Tons/A and a full width swath (100%) you need about 70 inches of accumulated pan evaporation to cure hay. (OTTOMH)
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d4dave1
Posted 4/28/2010 22:20 (#1178561 - in reply to #1178175)
Subject: RE: NO !



Edson, Alberta, Canada

Hay Wilson,
Could you comment on this article by the Manitoba Forage Council as it pertains to sunshine, wind and relative humidity and their effect on forage crop dry down please?
Honestly not trying to be an a** here, just trying to learn and I am aware that sometimes "book smart" does not equal "life smart". I am always looking for ways to improve my forage crop production.
Regards,
Dave.

http://www.mbforagecouncil.mb.ca/resources/forage-grassland-manual/7a-harvesting-feeding-stored-forage-hay/74a-physiology-of-hay-drying/

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Jay in WA
Posted 4/28/2010 23:41 (#1178727 - in reply to #1178103)
Subject: RE: Can I cut alfalfa in am with dew on it?


Pasco WA.
I have cut a lot of hay in the morning that was soaked with dew. Was ready to bale the same day as the hay that was cut after the dew burned off. The hardest part about cutting with dew on with a sickle machine is all the water the reel throws onto the windshield. No problem with a rotary though. A couple of years ago we were really fighting rain on first cutting. One day I cut for a couple of hours in the rain. Didn't make any difference that time because it was all so washed out it was nothing but feeder hay.
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95h
Posted 4/29/2010 08:19 (#1178958 - in reply to #1178561)
Subject: RE:read the article you provided,,


Kittitas Co. Wa. State

They are pretty close on the wind/sun/humidity issues.  Higher humidity can really reduce drying even if the wind is blowing. Sun in of itself isn't as important as air flow to move the air across/thru the windrow to dry the crop down. Heat is more important than stricktly sun.

Think of a Food dehydrator,, light is not a factor at all. heat to move the moisture to the outside of the food and wind to remove the moisture from the food surface.

"perfect hay drying conditions would be 80-90 degrees all night long with a 15 mph wind blowing across the field.

Wet ground is a factor in dry down also. Same issue which effects hay drying also effects the ground exactly the same way.  They made a very good point about stubble height, leave more stubble.  They were right too on the windrowing, wider the windrow the better conditions for air movement quicker drydown.

I will totally disagree with the article about baling moisture.  Levels approaching 14 percent in grass is going to be a train wreck for spoilage. Levels in the 18-20 percent in legumes,, same trainwreck. (I realize this may be a "here" issue,, but I don't sell hay 1/2 across the USA I sell it "here". )

Farmers need to realize,,,,  ANYBODY can buy a Moisture Tester and Dealers buy those moisture testers by the box load. Single largest factor in hay rejection aside from color (which just gets them close enough to the pile to ram in their mosture tester) is high moisture levels.

In grass I don't agree with the suggested settings for conditioners. I run the conditioner (double solid steel rollers with 3/4" x1 1/4" bars welded on) higher than the suggested spring settings of 600 pounds.  I have ran the spring at approximately 800 pounds for years. The rollers actually run in an interlocking fashion with about 1/8-1/4 inch between the rollers. (they almost touch in other words)  The conditioner is the single biggest draw on the HP as it works pretty hard to run the hay thru at those settings.

Realize those settings would likely knock every leaf off a legume. (but I'm not trying to get the moisture out of legumes)

Oh, drying agents,, nobody really uses them here although they work well. Customers will not buy hay that has drying agents in the bales.

A windrow turner does help drydown, by inverting the windrow and moving it off where it originally was placed in the windrow. The ground under the windrow is still wetter as the day the windrow was placed on it and the hay can "wick" up moisture from the ground. Inverting the windrow gives maximum exposure to wind and heat and a drier place for the windrow to set on.  The down side of course with wind and heat is "sun" which will bleach out the color faster. Some Growers will invert or turn over with a rake, others let the windrows lay for weeks with out touching at all.  The "untouched hay" looks much greener in the bale, hay gets turned inside during the baling process so the bale will be pretty and green. Downside of course is the inside of the bale is a lot browner and not nearly as nice looking.  Inverting or turning the windrows with a rake, may lose some leaves, if done at the wrong time of day, but the end resulting bale is a lot more uniform throughout the bale. Little browner on the outside but uniform from string to string.

Leaving a taller stubble will help. More stubble density helps to hold the windrows off the ground.  In timothy 3-4 inches is a superior cutting height compared to 2 inches as is mentioned in the article. The closer to the crown the longer it takes for the crown to recover and resume growing. (get the sickle bar out of the dirt, they are not field cultivators)

Just my experiences, results and observations "here", your results in your "area" may be very different.

 

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Hay Wilson in TX
Posted 4/29/2010 08:46 (#1178992 - in reply to #1178561)
Subject: Thank you, never too old for new knowledge



Little River, TX
Obviously I fell in the same trap that I have admonished so many for doing. Assuming my Regional Truth is the Universal Truth.
I wish the charts that accompany the Manitoba information worked for me but all I see is a red X.
I would think the Truth that works here would have more universal application, seeing as they were documented in our Midwest.
If memory serves they in their finding that 75% of hay curing is due to the direct rays of the sun, they acknowledged that high humidity will discourage drying while a low humidity will facilitate drying. Their rational was that the advantageous temperatures and humidity are at least in part due to good sun shine.

When we consider the quality of sunshine the sun south of say Oklahoma City or Memphis the angle of the rays in mid winter are not much different than the angle on Manitoba or Alberta in mid summer. We just do not get the duration of sun shine you folks do. Here 14 hours from sunrise to sunset is about all we get, but at noon our shadow is up close to our feet. Here, in June, the sun will reach the bottom of a 25 foot deep hand dug well.

Now how this sun thing works. The day the hay is cut the stomatas are all open breathing in air and letting out water vapor and Oxygen. These little openings stay open as long as they see sunshine, as they close during the night. This is the route of escape for the leaf moisture. With alfalfa about half the plant is leaf so this is a considerable amount of the moisture. The stems can and do allow some moisture to escape through the leaves but the majority goes out through any openings in the stems. Cracked stems &/or the cut at the bottom of the stem.

Now what the sun does is it heats the moisture in the downed crop, creating a positive vapor pressure. This is why it is so important for as much direct sun shine to reach as much of the hay as possible, especially the first day.
Remove the sunshine and the stomatas close, be it night or a big windrow that cuts off the light. Then we fall back on needing a stem abrasion to give the moisture an avenue to escape. I suspect the reason why the massive crushing action conditioning system was developed in Canada is due to their/your less intense sunshine. It is also probably why the reconditioning system was also developed in Canada or one of our more northern states.

Someone, possibly in Wisconsin developed a chart to for the amount of total pan evaporation is required to cure hay down to 20% moisture. At least here we see a lot more pan evaporation when the sun is shining then when the sun is absent.

When the humidity at the windrow is at or above 90% the moisture level for fully cured hay will be above 40%. I contend the leaves will be 50 or 60% moisture and the fully cured stems will be 30 or 40% moisture for a aggregate moisture level in the 40% range. Then we can rake the hay with minimal leaf loss.
When the humidity inside the windrow is at or below 65% RH, the hay moisture will test in the 18 to 20% moisture range. When it is reasonably safe to bale, small square bales.
When the humidity in side the windrow is in the 50 to 55% RH range the hay will test about 12 maybe 14% moisture. About where it is supposed to be for large square bales.

Stem moisture (sap) complicates things, but as the humidity is falling here I can safely start baling in the morning as the humidity goes below 65%. When the humidity gets down in the low 50% range is when the leaves will start to shatter excessively. Here the measured humidity at eye level may be 50% with the hay still being damp with dew.
Baling at night, HERE, is not as complicated. We can feel the humidity and start baling. If the leaves are shattering too much we wait another 30 minutes and start again. We can bale until the baler's slip clutch starts complaining too much and/or the bales become too heavy.

So yes even with bright sun light, in Southern Lausanne, even though the temperatures go above 95°F, the humidity stays above 80% hay is slow to cure and impossible to bale.
Than again in Idaho with their highest humidity during the day not much above 20% and a nice 15 mph breeze they do not need sunshine, though they get it anyway. They simply do not NEED the drying effects of direct high angle sunshine.

I still go with the idea that hay curing is 75% due to sunshine. With our June sun being at 85° above the horizon which is considerably higher than the noon day sun in Regina, or Winnipeg. There the diluted sun shine forces the grower to fall back on the other elements that effect hay curing.
With air conditioned air blowing over plant samples I can cure the samples in the dark. I also can see the leaves will shatter while the stems are still limber with moisture,

If I were to attempt to put up hay in your country I would become totally confused.


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Hay Wilson in TX
Posted 4/29/2010 10:48 (#1179112 - in reply to #1178958)
Subject: To Sum it all up.



Little River, TX
I appreciate what you say. All this works differently around Sacramento than it does near Fresno, and for sure differently from near Yuma.

A 100% swath = close to a 9 ft wide swath, thanks to using a tedder.
A 66% swath = close to a 6 ft wide swath, with the doors wide open and one tire running on down hay.
A 50% swath = a slight constriction of the doors and both tires are off the hay.
A 25% swath = a 2 to 3 ft wide windrow.

.9T/A using the 50% swath can bale after .41" of pan evaporation (PE) or .62" for a windrow.

1.1T/A using the 50% swath can bale after .47" of pan evaporation (PE) or .71" for a windrow.

1.25T/A using the 66% swath at .43" PE, 50% swath .55" PE or .79" for a windrow.

1.5T/A using the 66% swath at .47" PE, 50% swath .59" PE or .98" for a windrow.

1.7T/A using the 100% swath at .42" PE, 66% swath .63" PE or 1.07 for a windrow.

2.1T/A using the 100% swath at .51" PE, 66% swath .59" PE or .98 for a windrow.



2.7T/A using the 100% swath at .59" PE, or 1.38" with a windrow.


Right now I am running about .25" PE/day while in June it will be about .35"/day. It is higher in July and August but there is little or no hay to cut then, unless there is irrigation. Which there isn't.

Cutting at local noon I use half the first days PE and all the following days forecast PE. I figure I can bale the first day that the total PE is above the magic number.

We are not talking about an exact number like something from rocket science.

In the good old says, when I was 20 years younger and still baling at night, and my yields were not as high, if I cut right after the dew burned off (8 am) I could bale that night when the humidity was high enough. Anywhere from 10 pm to 2 am, I would start. Then the hay was dropped into a windrow and soon after raked into a windrow large enough to bale.

Stubble height is a big depends. Some clovers Require a 6" stubble if you expect a second cutting, For Eastern Gamma Grass you need to 12 inch stubble, but for bermudagrass less than one inch will work.
They tell me that cutting above the height where there is some regrowth from the old stems uses up too much energy. We want to cut low enough so all the regrowth is from the regrowth buds at the crown. What ever stubble height my old NH 411 diskbine likes is what my stubble ends up being.

Here bermudagrass cures faster than alfalfa, but it also shatters more leaves than alfalfa.
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