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CRJ

Posted 4/14/2014 18:23 (#3815926)
Subject: Power beyond port question......

NEIN

Hooking my JD planter variable rate drive motors to my CIH 235 power beyond coupler and we are wondering if the signal line should be tee' d off the power going to the motors or off the return from the motors. Also is the plug in the block of the tractor supposed to be removed if using the signal line or only if you want full hydraulics all the time? Tried my dealer but they seem to know very little about using power beyond for anything. Thanks!

Gerard

Posted 4/14/2014 18:38 (#3815948 - in reply to #3815926)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

Woodham, Ontario

Did you try not using the load sense line? Running the vac motors should tell the tractor to start flowing oil.

Redwrench

Posted 4/14/2014 22:15 (#3816691 - in reply to #3815926)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

The PB is designed to connect to an external closed-center valve that can send an independent load-sense signal (LS) back to the PFC signal circuit, that can either accept the full flow the Pfc pump sends thru the outlet or can self-regulate the flow that is required by an individual circuit, and that can be commanded on/off by an external input. And do all this without creating issues with the other hydraulic circuits that are working at the same time. This is a very basic explanation, and I won't spend all evening talking about what is really involved in a multi-tasking PFC system.
Basically the PB was designed for something like a laser-controlled land leveler. The variable-rate drive valves on JD or CNH planters simply don't do all of the above things, because They are designed to use a controlled flow from the tractor remote valve, and they let the tractor remote valve take care of all the supply side control hydraulics. The planters VR controller decides how fast it wants an orbital motor to spin, and simply opens or closes a PWM solenoid to use less or more of the flow from the remote valve.
When you try to just plumb a supply & return to the VR circuit, it's about as crude as hooking a fire hose to your lawn sprinkler. Yeah, it sorta works but then try cycling another 3 or 4 sprinklers off/on from the same water hose and see what happens. Of all the circuits you don't want surges and pressure dips & spikes in, it's the VR drive!
You didn't say but we assume you want to use the PB because you ran out of remote valves due to all of the things you need to do with the planting rig. We usually see that operators want hook up one remote valve for frame fold/ transport. An easy way to get double use out of that valve is to mount an electrically- controlled splitter back on the planter tongue or frame. Run a set of hoses from the remote coupler to the splitter and have unswitched output feed the planter VR, or fertilizer drive, or whatever while planting. Then flip a switch to change to frame fold/transport hydraulics.

One other suggestion is that if you simply must use the PB, connect it to the least critical circuit that doesn't change speed hardly ever. Something like a rod weeder. You can rig a variable orifice on the supply hose and take your LS signal downstream of the orifice. Do not remove the small plug from the LS port, there are very few applications where that is done.

Speed

Posted 4/14/2014 23:13 (#3816786 - in reply to #3816691)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

farmland indiana

Red that would not work on a new jd planter because the the two houses that supply the frame control when your fold box switch is in transport is the same set of hoses that raises and lowers your partner when in plant position. Not sure about a case tractor but on a deere I removed the load sense line from the pressure line. With the vacuum motors kicked in they will keep the pressure even and not let pressure jump all over the place.

CRJ

Posted 4/15/2014 06:08 (#3816923 - in reply to #3816786)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

NEIN

In your case did you run the motors on the PB circuit? According to red I just wasted a bunch of time and money putting it on my tractor. Guess I should have bought another remote valve. Thanks for the help.

Redwrench

Posted 4/15/2014 07:56 (#3817154 - in reply to #3816786)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

Speed - 4/14/2014 22:13
Not sure about a case tractor but on a deere I removed the load sense line from the pressure line. With the vacuum motors kicked in they will keep the pressure even and not let pressure jump all over the place.

I'm not sure about the Deere planter; don't even know what model he is running. But based on your reply, I guess that means that the Deere vac motors circuit requires more operating pressure than the VR drives. If so, a power-beyond to the VR's would probably work OK with this tractor. The entire PB circuit is nothing but an extension of the supply galley, motor return, and load-sense signal galley from the remote center manifold. If the vacs require more pressure than the VRs, the PFC pump will be commanded to keep the supply galley flow/pressure up to that level, regardless of the flow going to the VR.

What we DON'T want is a LS signal back to the power-beyond that isn't generated by a "controlled" circuit. That is in effect a simple feedback loop that immediately kicks the PFC pump up to high-pressure standby (my fire hose example.)

Did you have any VR circuit flow/pressure problems with your hookup at lower vacuum settings and higher ground speeds?

CRJ

Posted 4/15/2014 06:15 (#3816936 - in reply to #3816691)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

NEIN

We have had so much trouble with the remotes on these tractors I thought the PB was the way to go, guess not.

Redwrench

Posted 4/15/2014 07:17 (#3817048 - in reply to #3816936)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

Don't give up on it yet. If the VR drive takes less pressure than the blower fan, the blower reMote circuit will keep the Pfc pump stroked enough to operate the VR also. Speed says his worked without an LS hose. Try it that way at different vacuum settings and ground speeds; I.e. Low vacuum and faster speeds, to see if the VR drive will work without an orificed and signaled hookup thru all of the different vacuum/speed planting conditions you will be in.

Edited by Redwrench 4/15/2014 07:20

CRJ

Posted 4/15/2014 16:51 (#3818054 - in reply to #3817048)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

NEIN

The tech is coming out to calibrate the whole thing tomorrow. I'll tell him what you have told me and see what his thoughts are as well. He has done several planters but I am not sure they were hooked to red tractors. Something else that bothers me about these remotes is that when the factory rep was here this winter he talked about a fix to the remotes on the 235 series that was required for guys running some of the newer green planters. When I quizzed him he said it was fix as required. What the heck does that mean, wait for the problem and then fix it I guess. Thanks for the help!

Edited by CRJ 4/15/2014 16:51

Redwrench

Posted 4/15/2014 18:59 (#3818307 - in reply to #3818054)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

There is a new remote spool & spring and software upgrade that is supposed to take care of erratic flow running orbital motors. I'll look that up and edit this reply later this evening.
And yes, that means if the wheel doesn't squeak, it doesn't get greased...

EDIT: Here's part of the info from Tech Support. Your dealer has access to this info and more.

Symptom :
Remote flow is variable / erratic

Resolution :
Troubleshooting EHR valves erratic flow

When operating a hydraulic motor the hydraulic oil flow from the remote valve may become unstable causing the hydraulic motor to surge.

The most common problem reported is when running a planter / air seeder vacuum fan hydraulic motor from one or more remotes, when a different remote is activated the hydraulic motor flow may decreases/increases and the vacuum fan speed may decrease/increase.

To improve this condition the remote valve main spools, part numbers 47429154 has been modified.
In the future a new main spool assembly will be made available when the supply of modified 47429154 main spools is exhausted. The main spool have been improved by adding an additional small hydraulic oil bleed to the spool.

In addition to this improved main spool it is recommended the following documents be referenced for improvement to planter operation before extensive service is performed on the remote valve(s).

For CASE IH planters install the 84537688 flow control cartridge as described in CASE IH Service Bulletin 2012-037, 'The Vacuum Fan or Bulk Fill Fan Surges'.

For John Deere planters see John Deere bulletin 76912, Vacuum Motor Surging.

For Kinze planters, see Kinze bulletin G1K492 'Edgevac Fan Pressure Stabilizer Kit'.

After review of the recommended bulletins above, if required, order an improved remote valve main spool part number 47429154. It is recommended that only the remote valve section(s) that are used for fan operation be updated with the improved remote valve main spool.

For Steiger / Quadtrac or T9 series tractors it is recommend to update remote valve number 3 or higher, power boost is activated when these remote valves are used in motor mode. It is not required to modify all remote valve sections.

It is also recommend that the O-rings between the valve sections be replaced if a valve section is removed on all tractor models.

Note: As of September 10, 2013, the Main Spool part number 47429154 is shown as not serviceable, (NSS). This is incorrect. The main spool is available as a service part. The individual parts of the assembly are not.

INSTRUCTIONS:

Remove the remote valve(s) section from the tractor if required, using the service manual procedure.
Note: It is not necessary to remove the valve sections on Steiger / Quadtrac or T9 Series tractors to perform remote valve main spool replacement except for one remote vale section.
With the valve section removed (not necessary on Steiger / Quadtrac or T9 Series tractors), from the tractor remove the six socket head cover screws, figure 1. This is the end cover located at the opposite end of the remote valve section from the pilot head assembly. The two O-rings found under the cover should be saved and reused.
Carefully remove the main flow control spool from the remote valve section. See figure 2.
Lubricate the improved main spool with hydraulic oil and reassembly the valve section. Install the two O-rings saved from step 2. Tighten the six valve spool cover screws to 27 31 Nm (19 22 lbft/ft)
Note: Make sure the two O-rings are properly positioned.
If required reinstall the remote valve onto the tractor using new O-rings. Apply Loctite 242 to the threads of the through bolts and torque mounting nuts to 41 47 Nm (30 35 lbft/ft).
Software Update:

Using the electronic Service Tool (EST) download the updated pilot head software version 1.4.0.0 or higher into each of the remote valves. All remote valves must be updated with the new software. This software will improve calibration and temperature compensation within the remote valve.
After the software is updated all the remote valves must to be calibrated using the calibration tool, 380001903.
Run the tractor and inspect for leaks.
Production:

The latest level EHR valves were introduced in production from the following serial number:

ZDRC05797, July 2013.

WARRANTY: Standard warranty terms apply.

Edited by Redwrench 4/15/2014 19:21

Speed

Posted 4/15/2014 22:48 (#3818970 - in reply to #3818307)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

farmland indiana

I was hooking a deere to a deere. Sorry not sure about a red one. But if you trade it in on a green one I know it will work. Lol. Joking. Deere calls those programs fix as fail. Its their way of only fixing the one that screw up under warranty without having to fix every one. Like on your tractor if it was not used as a planter tractor you may never have trouble with the outlets.

Redwrench

Posted 4/16/2014 12:56 (#3819867 - in reply to #3818970)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

Speed - 4/15/2014 21:48

I was hooking a deere to a deere. Sorry not sure about a red one. But if you trade it in on a green one I know it will work. Lol. Joking

I know that, finally figured out that Deere puts a dormant virus in their planters that is activated by Hytran hydraulic fluid! ;) :). Have a good one, Speed

RFarmsND

Posted 4/15/2014 21:00 (#3818681 - in reply to #3815926)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

Pressure in your power beyond will be activated when any other remote is used. Your pump runs standby pressure at all times, I think around 300 lbs. When you use any remote the pump starts producing. If you have power beyond hooked up to variable rate drives there is no need for load sense line. Once you lock your vac or ccs fans on the tractor will be sending oil to power beyond line. If you use it on the variable rate drive motors on your planter the planter will control the speed of the motor. No problems, hope this helps.

CRJ

Posted 4/16/2014 07:07 (#3819266 - in reply to #3818681)
Subject: RE:Thanks Red and everyone...

NEIN

I find it almost funny that I got perfect information from AgTalk and my 4 store dealership couldn't/wouldn't help me. Mother Case listening?
At the meeting put on by the factory another customer asked "Why on a Saturday at 6 pm, is the best source of information for problems with my new quad track, Goggle?" His answer was that the customer should have had the dealer print out the service pages with all the fault codes earlier in the day. I told the guy who asked I think the rep missed the point. thanks again everybody!

KMech

Posted 4/16/2014 19:33 (#3820450 - in reply to #3819266)
Subject: RE:Thanks Red and everyone...

Missouri

CRJ - 4/16/2014 06:07
I find it almost funny that I got perfect information from AgTalk and my 4 store dealership couldn't/wouldn't help me. Mother Case listening?

Ag Talk is just that good, many knowledgeable people here.

kmjFarms

Posted 4/11/2017 15:12 (#5957810 - in reply to #3818681)
Subject: RE: Power beyond port question......

WC-ND

RFarmsND,

Have a question for you regarding this statement you made. If you tap in directly to the power beyond port with the VRT remote, you don't have to worry about having a flow control on it? Do I understand that correctly. I have a 485qt and do not have enough remotes for my new air cart. was think of doing what you are saying, but the dealer says I need to put a closed center scv with load sense lines, but I will be having 3 remotes locked in at all times. 2 for fans, and one for downforce.

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