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Thinking about switching to a Mac
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Ray (ecks)
Posted 2/6/2008 17:30 (#302870)
Subject: Thinking about switching to a Mac



I have always had PC computers. Never have even clicked on a Mac. I've got a clone desktop and then we have Toshiba laptops for the kids. All are on a network and the pc clone stays on full time as a server.

Running xp pro on all machines. I'm getting tired of the glitches in xp and the problems of having to reboot etc.

I'd like to hear from anyone who had pc's for a while and then made the switch to Mac's. Are you glad you did? Do it again?

We run MS office, word, excel, easisuite or farmworks, quickbooks and outlook for the bulk of our computer work.

Thanks for the info.
Ray
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dutch
Posted 2/6/2008 22:24 (#303162 - in reply to #302870)
Subject: Re: Thinking about switching to a Mac



West Texas
Ray, I'm not saying MS don't have problems with XP, but I can go a week or more now without rebooting.

This is on an old desktop with only 512mb ram.
It runs as stable as can be. before XP I had to reboot daily.
We have a Toshiba laptop with XP in the office that has to be rebooted quite often. It runs very, very hot. I think it has something to do with it.

Mac's are good but it's been awhile since we've used one. Still have 2 old ones somewhere.
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Ernie
Posted 2/6/2008 23:05 (#303214 - in reply to #303162)
Subject: Got to blow them out



North End I-15
once in a while . The dust storm from mine took 2 days to settle :>) I sure runs faster now . I the heat sink on the processor was nearly pluged. My office is in the old 2 stall garage on end of house. Concrete floors , dog , etc. :<( :>) Next time I am going to put the shop vac with 3" suction hose next to the case ;>)
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McCartman
Posted 2/6/2008 23:30 (#303243 - in reply to #302870)
Subject: Re: Thinking about switching to a Mac



Made the switch last spring after running Windows all the way back to Ver. 2.0. I really liked XP, but decided to give Mac a try since I was faced with having to upgrade if I went to Vista.

I've had a lot of people ask how I like Mac - I tell them if I never sat down to another Windows based machine again, I'd never miss it. As much as I liked XP, I pretty much got in the habit of shutting it down every night so the next day I'd be starting from a new boot. Seems like if I went more than a day or two without rebooting, things started to get wacky and not work right. I leave my Mac run 24-7 - have it set to sleep after an hour of inactivity. It sleeps like it should and will wake up and work right like it should and I could never get Windows (any version) to work right at that. I've had my Mac running up to 35 days without a reboot before starting to run into hitches.

As for Office software - scroll down a bit. I posted links to free open source NeoOffice which can read/write Office compatible files.

It is very difficult to find a Windows-to-Mac switcher who regrets the move.....
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jbweston
Posted 2/7/2008 00:23 (#303286 - in reply to #303243)
Subject: Re: Thinking about switching to a Mac



Central Ohio
I second the sentiment. Made the switch to Mac about 4 years ago after swearing earlier in my life that I would never make that move. I was a tech in a Mac lab about 14 years ago and it was the worst thing going. Hated Appletalk, hated the OS. However, once Apple came out with Mac OS X about 8 years ago (now on version 10.5.1- Leopard) it has all been uphill!

I could never touch a Windows machine again and be happy!

NeoOffice is great as was mentioned, so is iWork '08.

One thing you should know concerning Mac's new Intel hardware, it is possible to boot Windows XP/Vista or OS X with Mac's boot camp utility if you still need to run windows only farm programs.

However, an even better option is to get an $80 program (VMWare's Fusion or Parallels) which allows one to run Mac OS X as your main OS and then run XP/Vista invisibly with only select program windows visible in the OS X environment. If you do this, you should have at least 2, if not 4 Gb of RAM to not notice any performance lag.

By the way, if you buy a Mac, upgrade the ram (and the harddrive for that matter) youself. They are both user-replacible without voiding the warranty. I just recently bought a new Macbook and instead of paying Apple $700 for 4 Gb of RAM and $200 for a (still slowish) HD, I bought it all from www.macsales.com for $210 (and my new HD is screaming fast). Hurts battery life a little, but oh well! :)
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jbweston
Posted 2/7/2008 00:27 (#303289 - in reply to #302870)
Subject: RE: Thinking about switching to a Mac



Central Ohio
One other thing concerning network compatibility issues. I have been using a using a Mac on a 95% Windows network for 2 years and have had great success. In fact, ease of connectivity, I would much rather be coming to this network with a new Mac than a new Windows PC. Granted, there always can be issues, but my experience has been very positive with network compatibility.
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Highplainsnotillr
Posted 2/7/2008 01:33 (#303311 - in reply to #302870)
Subject: RE: Thinking about switching to a Mac


Western CO
We've pretty well switched the whole family over to Mac's now. I've been running an iMac on my desk for about 15 mos., my wife has a mini and both kids have Macbooks. The OS is rock solid, upgrades work as they should. I also run them 24/7 and they are usually up for more than a month before a reboot -- the performance never degrades. We started on Tiger (OS X 10.4) and moved up to Leopard when it was available. The family pack upgrade was $200 for up to five machines (try getting that kind of a deal from Bill).

We also have Office running on some of them, works flawlessly moving the files over to PC's if you need to. iWork is also available and Pages can read/write Word docs -- actually textedit knows how to read a word document.

I have one copy of Parallels and one copy of VMware -- so far I like VMware better. Parallels works fine but seems to have it fair share of problems. I run XP on the mini with Parallels and actually have a copy of Vista loaded on the iMac with VMWare -- I have to admin some Vista machines for my wife at her office. The unity mode in VMware lets you run Windows apps right along side you Mac apps -- you can only tell the difference by the top borders of the windows as to which OS it's running in.

I wouldn't go back either, they seem to get into your blood after you've run one for a while.




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WYDave
Posted 2/7/2008 06:03 (#303336 - in reply to #302870)
Subject: RE: Thinking about switching to a Mac


Wyoming

I've used/programmed Macs on and off since about 1986 and have seen Apple's products come and go since then. Been running Windows since '95/'98 and WinNT 3.51. I've used/programmed/cursed at least a dozen other systems since 1976 as well - PDP-11's, VAX/VMS, VM/CMS on IBM mainframes, Wang/VS systems, HP's RTE on 2100/1000 mini's, then Interdata, Prime and Harris minicomputers (they were all crap), Unix (in umpteen different flavors on umpteen different architectures), microcomputers going back to the IMSAI 8080 system.

Blah, blah, blah. I have spent more than half my life on computers.

 

Just got a Macbook Pro. Running OS X 10.5 on it.

Am more impressed with the end result than any other machine I've worked on/with in 25+ years of dorking around with computers. Why? It is the first system in my entire experience of using/programming/cursing computers where I believe I'm getting more done with the least amount of time spent farting around making the system do what I want.

Apple's products always tried to be a cut above the commoditized PC market products - this is how they justified their higher profit margins. With the Intel-based Macs, Apple's product quality and versatility has left the rest of the market behind.  OS  X is a huge leap forward from the prior Mac software systems. From my perspective as both a systems hacker  and now as a guy who "just wants to get the stupid stuff done" on a computer, OS X gives me everything I want - a BSD-looking Unix-ish interface for hacking, and a really clean GUI and GUI applications for just getting the common stuff done, on hardware that is as fast as anything else out there in the market. But more to the point, they're really delivering products that "just get the job done" with less of your time than the PC-based products out there.

Example: backups. Recently Apple has put a backup facility called "Time Machine" into OS X (version 10.5 and later) and this month, they're releasing as slick a piece of work as I've ever seen, called "Time Capsule." The "Time Capsule" is a wireless router (802.11n), a four-port Gigabit Ethernet hub, network storage device for PC's and Macs as well as a Time Machine backup device. Oh, and it serves as a USB-2 connected print server too. All in one compact little package.

So with OS X 10.5 and later, you can use Time Machine+Time Capsule and your system backups "just work." If you have multiple Macs, all their backups "just work."  All for about $500 with a 1TB (!) disk. That's an example of smart product engineering across the product line - make backups easier, make the backup hardware cheap enough and do enough other jobs that the customer says "Hey, there's no excuse to not have this thing."

With VMWare on a Mac, you can run WinXP and Windows applications in a virtual machine to run any Windows applications that don't have Mac-based versions. Since the Mac Book Pro's are using the Core Duo chipsets, you actually have 2 CPU's in the machine; you can tell VMWare if you want it to use one or two of the CPU's. VMWare is the slickest thing I've seen since I played with VM/370 on mainframes in the early 80's. Installing VMWare and then installing WinXP inside it was as easy as falling down. It "just works."

The nicest thing about Apple's products is that because Apple is controlling both the hardware and the software, they can make things "just work" for the user without a ton of options, special hacks, settings, etc. Microsoft is forced to add a blizzard of configuration bits and settings to Windows because Microsoft doesn't control the hardware. 

The CFO, who has used Macs on/off almost as far back as I have, loves the new Mac. Takes a little getting used to, as you'd expect, but she's now of a mind to get her own Macbook Pro when she replaces her IBM Thinkpad, which has been a solid laptop for eight years. We both last used Macs about 1993/1994 or so and are both blown away by how much Apple has changed their idea of how to deliver value to the customer.

Within a year, I suspect our PC's (and we have about a half-dozen of them) will be shut down and put into cold storage. I probably won't even keep one around for BSD/Linux hacking any more. VMWare means that I can fool around with any OS I want on the Mac, and I spend less time configuring a hardware multi-OS boot and partitions to achieve the same result.

Apple's licensing for OS X within a household (5 machines for $200) seems to make a lot more sense too. Much cheaper than MS's licensing fees if you have a bunch of folks in the household running the same machine/OS. 

 

The one downside of the Mac (and this has been true going back to the late 80's) has been the business software application market tends to ignore the Mac. With VMWare+WinXP, this is no longer an issue. There are native versions of MS-Office for the Mac, but your farm s/w you'll likely need to run on WinXP as a guest inside VMWare.

If the machine does what you want, and you spend less time coaxing the machine into continuing to do what you want, then hey, run it. If the Mac doesn't do what you want, then stick with a PC. In the end, you're a practical guy with a practical need, and the choice should come down to this: "Which system will get more of what I want done in less of my time?" When I was young and stupid, spending 18 hours straight, buried in the bowels of some machine room, making a system do what I wanted was a badge of honor. Now that I'm getting older, I realize it was just stupid. My requirement is now for a system to do what I want, and do it now. I don't want to piss away hours of my time doing system rebuilds, or backups, or disinfections, etc. I have other things to do with my time, and the computer should be working for me, not the other way 'round.

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WYDave
Posted 2/7/2008 11:11 (#303554 - in reply to #303336)
Subject: RE: Good luck on this virus/malware thing


Wyoming

All systems have and will have security issues unless they're Orange Book A-rated systems (ie, there are mathematical proofs of correctness in the design). 

OS X has seen security issues as well. The trouble is, claims by Windows advocates that OS X will have security issues are akin to someone with a sucking chest wound playing "neener-neener-nyah-nyah" while pointing at someone with a bad cut. There's a sense of proportion missing there.

Both the groups who:

a) think that OS X is impervious because it "isn't Windows"

b) think that OS X will suffer just as many security attacks as Windows

are simply not credible.

I've seen security problems in VAX/VMS, SunOS and other Orange-book C2-rated systems. Doo-doo happens. But the flipside of the issue is that there are B2-rated Unix/Unix-like systems out there (Trusted Solaris, for example) and B2 requires very rigorous security testing. Even when the developers don't submit to Orange Book levels of testing, there are some implementations out there that are huge improvements over anything Windows is delivering. OpenBSD, as a open source OS project, has very credible security for casual (ie, non-classified) use in that the number of stupid bugs found is very low, again because of rigorous security testing by the developers.

Microsoft's problem is that they don't do rigorous, serious security testing as one of the gating items for releasing Windows to the market. They issue releases with huge numbers of existing bugs in the s/w because they're driven by revenue projections and with a near monopoly, they don't need to care about security. They just need to ship.  

There is no "Trusted Windows" B-level product out there. Zip, nada, nothing. Microsoft's promises that there would be such a "Trusted Windows" have been heard for nearly 10 years, but with no results seen out of Redmond. There are "Trusted Mach" projects out there already, which means that should Apple want to deliver a "Trusted OS X," that the road is already being paved by  research at universities and the US military (esp. the USAF). For people who want secure Linux, there is a secured Linux project, which has substantial contributions from the folks at the NSA and IBM.

Because there are no easy source code licenses for Windows, and Microsoft keeps making huge changes in the OS source code base between versions, Microsoft is pretty much on their own, and the external evidence is that security simply isn't that important to Microsoft. They're interested in shipping features first and closing holes afterwards.

  

As long as Windows has

a) the registry

b) "active content"

c) Microsoft self-invented guns pointed at their own feet, such as ActiveX, and MS's own version of Java

d) a monolithic kernel with a huge amount of code running at an elevated privilege level within the same memory address space,

Windows is going to have more security holes than OS X, or just about anything else.

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WYDave
Posted 2/7/2008 11:32 (#303578 - in reply to #303554)
Subject: RE: Point I'm trying to make


Wyoming

 

You're right, of course.

My point is that the situation on Windows has reached the point where it is because of deliberate design choices by MS. It isn't getting better and it isn't likely  to get better. My other point, without getting absurdly technical here, is that MS's big design choice of a huge amount of code running at elevated priv levels leaves more attack opportunities for really deep penetration than a system like OS X using a microkernel-type design.

The central problem comes back to your point: Even the most secure system in the world isn't worth jack if users do absurdly stupid things like write down their passwords or use easily guessed passwords. Or answer phishing e-mails, surf over to porn sites in Russia, etc. Or assume "Why, I can't have a security problem because of <fill in the blank with silly reason here>."

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dumbasdirt
Posted 2/7/2008 11:47 (#303597 - in reply to #303578)
Subject: RE: Point I'm trying to make


Dave, I am dumbasdirt about passwords. What passwords are important and what are unimportant? Is the password that I use to logon to NAT important to have highly complex? If so, do all passwords no matter their use need to be complex? If not, what passwords are the important ones? Really enjoy your participation and help.
Thanks, jim
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WYDave
Posted 2/7/2008 12:05 (#303608 - in reply to #303597)
Subject: RE: Point I'm trying to make


Wyoming

The password to your email server, the password to log onto your PC, the passwords to log onto any financial web site are important. Any password that allows you to manage/move/spend money is the most important type of password.

Passwords should not be the same - eg, your email password should not be the same as your online banking password, and this should not be the same password you use to log into Windows.

Passwords should not be something easily guessed by someone who knows only basic information about you (eg, your dog's name, your kid's name, your wife's name, etc). They should contain some numbers and/or special characters if the system allows it, they should be at least six characters long.

If you need to write down passwords, don't store them online someplace, and don't store the written copy near the computer.

When I had to remember passwords to 10+ systems, I created a system where every password was derived from something I alone knew, plus something about the system's network name, plus what time of year it was, and I had to change all my passwords once/quarter. This is more complicated than most people want to deal with, but that's an example of how you can create secure passwords that cannot be guessed, yet you can remember the password by remembering one method used to create many passwords.

The password to log onto NAT should be reasonably secure, but the downside to losing control of your account is limited. If someone grabbed your NAT account and started doing things in your name, the best recourse would be to flip EdB or one of the other admins an email, freeze/delete your existing account and go from there - changing your password immediately. Because there's limited hacker attraction to hackers for impersonating someone on a farm BBS, I don't think NAT is at big threat of that kind of attack.

Hackers would be after the NAT server more to use the server as a spam source, or to store stolen software, etc rather than attack individual accounts. Those sorts of attacks would be very limited in scope because NAT's admins are on top of the situation so quickly. 

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robaer1
Posted 2/7/2008 13:26 (#303684 - in reply to #303608)
Subject: RE: A couple of my observations about passwords


ED ,it's been my observation that any time a computer is connected to the net then its basicaly open. i have to use a land line seperate from my browsing. my land line only goes to x sites. no memory sticks cross over aka nothing. my isp is pingable showing my location and on top of that on a cellar connection they can ping me to the spot if someone chooses to. even the isp maskers etc are crackable aka the feds and if the feds have it then it will become public because of the $$$ and of course slipping it out the door. i had my ip ghost riden on top aka someone else was using my computer to browse etc. i watch the traffic comming in and out but from my stand point of having my email etc hacked it probably will never stop. but i'll try to stop it.
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WYDave
Posted 2/7/2008 14:25 (#303718 - in reply to #303608)
Subject: RE: A couple of my observations about passwords


Wyoming

I've noticed a difference in how some sites handle passwords too. My ISP can look and see what my password is if I tell them I've forgotten it. That password is different than others that I use. Other sites can't look at user passwords. If you forget it, they can only reset it to something and then tell you to change it to something you prefer. Many of those types of sites use the same password for me.

 

That's an absolutely sound policy. Any site that can tell you what your password is has insecure password management by definition. Passwords should not be retrievable from the password database/file. A good system has what is known as a "trap-door cryptographic hash function" - ie, when you are given the password as stored on the system, and you have complete knowledge of the hash function, you cannot reverse the algorithm and re-create the password. The hash function is "cryptographic" because the hash function has the ability to prevent differential attacks on the password (a bit complicated for this discussion, but when you're cracking banking passwords, it is worth learning all the tricks).

SHA-1 and MD-5 are examples of these sorts of algorithms. Not saying they're the last word in security, just that they're examples of trap-door crypto hash functions.

The systems that can give you your password back are vulnerable to having the password file stolen. Then all that is required is knowledge of the algorithm and wha-la! The hacker has every password that was stored on the system.

 

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Ray (ecks)
Posted 2/7/2008 14:34 (#303722 - in reply to #303608)
Subject: I can't even remember



my own birthday. Don't know how I can remember so many different passwords. The one's that get me are the one's that require something really complicated like so many numbers and so many capital letters and so many lower case letters in the make up for a simple web site that you don't even have any commerce on.

I do understand about the security, I have a router at home and run AVG on all ofour computers.

Thanks for all of the info folks.

Ray
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trf64
Posted 2/9/2008 09:59 (#305290 - in reply to #303336)
Subject: RE: Thinking about switching to a Mac


North Central Mo - Chillicothe
Dave, if they were all as stable as VAX/VMS, the world would be good. I worked on VMS for about 15 years before making the switch to networks, Windows NT etc. It's just not the same.

The guy who engineered VMS was hired by MS and then put together the original NT. It you know internals and data structures of VMS, it was an easy switch to NT (2000, XP , etc).

I run XP and 2000 in my office, reboot about once a month, and don't have problems. I'm in the IT business and firmly believe that the difference is good AV / Anti-spy ware software. I run Mcafee Total Protection for Small Business and have zero virus problems. I have it running it schools, small businesses, government and just don't have problems.

Good to see VMS's name in print again. Man, I miss the good old days ...

TF

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trf64
Posted 2/9/2008 16:18 (#305560 - in reply to #305290)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


North Central Mo - Chillicothe
You're right Ed.

I was working on VAX clusters starting in about 1986 when we thought dual ported disks were a big deal. I worked on clusters until about 2002 and I laugh when people talk about automatic fail-over systems. Holy cow, we had some of that stuff working in the 80's. I'm always surprised when people think that "clustering" is a big deal. Been there, done that, seems like a long time ago now.

The one thing that modern clusters don't have that VMS had way back then is a distributed lock manager. The ability to lock a "record" on disk so that multiple systems (members of a cluster) could access the record but not over-write changes and get them in the right order.

One of the things that amazes me about modern hardware is that intelligence of RAID controllers. The ability to hot-swap drives on a server and, as you said, have them keep right on running. In the first clusters, that took a pretty large and expensive piece of hardware. Now, it's just a PCI card.

Didn't think I'd every be talking about the good old days of VMS on an ag site.

TF
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BobTN
Posted 2/9/2008 19:30 (#305694 - in reply to #305560)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron



Germantown, TN
You've got to love VMS. OpenVMS is (so far) the only OS ever banned from the Defcon Capture the Flag competition.

All this talk of VMS makes me want to track down some CDs. I have an old Alpha PWS lying around, maybe I need a new web server. :)
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trf64
Posted 2/9/2008 21:09 (#305781 - in reply to #305694)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


North Central Mo - Chillicothe
Bob,

When I left corporate America, I left behind VMS. I wish I could have rode VMS into the sunset of my career, but I'm just too young. The small businesses that I support are all PC / Windows Server based and I made the right career move when I moved from VMS to Widows NT.

Now, a lengthy discussion on DECnet and how it's far superior to IP?

TF

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WYDave
Posted 2/10/2008 23:01 (#306651 - in reply to #305781)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


Wyoming

If you'd really like me to expound on both, I can.

 

Suffice to say, DECnet Phase IV was OK. Phase V (OSI) was a steaming pile, with the exception of the routing infrastructure.

 

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trf64
Posted 2/11/2008 21:31 (#307379 - in reply to #306651)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


North Central Mo - Chillicothe
I have to admit I didn't work much with Phase 5. I had alot of training on phase 4 back in Bedford. By the time phase 5 was around, most of the communications we were doing was with IP.

All this nostalgia make me search ebay for that perfect Alphastation ...

TF

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WYDave
Posted 2/10/2008 23:15 (#306659 - in reply to #305560)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


Wyoming

The big thing that VMS had that most all modern micro-computer systems don't is a record-oriented file system. From MS-DOS forward, everything inside a file is as it is on Unix -- a stream of bytes.

When I talk to these youngsters today and mention "ISAM files" - they look at me as tho I just landed from Mars. 

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WYDave
Posted 2/10/2008 23:03 (#306652 - in reply to #305290)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


Wyoming

The AS-400 is one of the best engineered systems out there. It not only replaced the System 34/36/38's, it gutted the 9370 product line, stopped the VAX/VMS intrusion into business apps, and killed the Wang/VS business.

A truly amazing piece of work, wholly atypical for IBM at that point in time.

 

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WYDave
Posted 2/10/2008 23:11 (#306656 - in reply to #306652)
Subject: RE: Heavy Duty Iron


Wyoming

Yes, they break. From what I've seen, it is usually the disk or power supply sub-system(s).

It would be a pretty rare thing to run across, but trust me on this: as funky as the AS-400 is, you should have seen the System 34/36/38's.

Gawd, it was like hitting yourself in the forehead with a hammer. All you could think about was "how good it will feel when I stop..."

 

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FarmerHerly
Posted 2/12/2008 12:13 (#307821 - in reply to #302870)
Subject: RE: Thinking about switching to a Mac



Valparaiso, Indiana
My first computer was an Apple IIGS. I've had Apple computers ever since. I've enjoyed the ease of use for years. Here are some links to check out.

PC Magazine rated the Mac the fastest windows computer last year:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136649-page,3-c,notebooks/article...

Mac Rumors has a good buyers guide:
http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

Apple has some good information on there website about switching from Windows:
http://www.apple.com/getamac/
http://www.apple.com/support/switch101/
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