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So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?
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tj33
Posted 8/12/2015 19:52 (#4730083)
Subject: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Jim's thread a couple days ago got me wondering what most think. I mean with +/-current prices, no crops, job in town, custom hire, etc. I always thought around 350 mommas. That way could afford to hire one good full time guy and still have enough left to be pretty comfortable. I don't think I could handle more than 200 unless I could find one big block of ground to run them on or hired hay, fencing, etc. I know the number will be different for different areas, equity in farm, land prices, local job opportunities, etc.
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Producer33
Posted 8/12/2015 20:01 (#4730107 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


That's a good question. Ask that again when calves go to $1.20 lb.
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tj33
Posted 8/12/2015 20:07 (#4730126 - in reply to #4730107)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Kinda expecting some salty replies.
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91944
Posted 8/12/2015 20:09 (#4730129 - in reply to #4730126)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


new prague mn
few years ago sold some 44 cents
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a4t-1600
Posted 8/12/2015 20:18 (#4730144 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Dearfield Co.
One more than you own and have pasture for
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GCAT
Posted 8/12/2015 20:23 (#4730157 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Eastern Kansas
Are the cows paid for?
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johnwayne360
Posted 8/12/2015 20:24 (#4730159 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


near dyersville iowa
too many. the old standard was figure $100/hd profit. 250 gets you 25k. That aint a lot. Maybe times have changed, but I'm not sure you could average $200 profit/head over a 20 year span.
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tj33
Posted 8/12/2015 20:33 (#4730187 - in reply to #4730157)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


My thoughts were that if you had a lot of equity in operation, you would put your money elsewhere if it earned same or more with no labor (dividends, interest, land rent, etc). So, probably wouldn't have cows if it wasn't the best return on investment vs other options.
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don jr
Posted 8/12/2015 20:46 (#4730221 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


1 or 100. Usually 2 or more. A cow usually has some fool to feed her, and they make a very comfortable living. Most of the time they get a job with water, an occasional conjugal visit, and plenty of grass and usually some shelter. They lounge around most of the day, don't follow many orders, and occasionally find some kind of trouble to get into or something to tear up. Yup, they's comfortable around here.....
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zfisher70
Posted 8/12/2015 20:50 (#4730235 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


VA
I have often wondered the same thing my dad always said 200 if you own only enough land to dry lot them on and lease everything else right (land rent here is at tax value or right above) and if you only had one piece of equipment financed at a time and all your cows paid for. This took him 20 years to accomplish and the year he did he died so who knows if it is actually true just my two cents I'm gonna try it as well
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1156versatile
Posted 8/12/2015 21:03 (#4730283 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Strathcona, mn
We just had this talk while working today. I personally got out of cattle a few years ago. I had enough fun having hobby cows as seldom did they pay more than there way. I have two younger guys who help me out that are all hot to buy cows. One bough 30 pair at $3250 earlier this year. I told them to be careful. Money is good now but be ready for the days when all they do is pay their feed bill. If you had all the land paid for, cattle paid for, equipment paid for and just had to figure depreciation, land taxes, operating expenses, etc... I'd think 200 head would support a good living. Problem is to get there you'd have to have 1 to 1.5 million in holding a to make a living. Personally I would have better things to do with that amount of money than have cattle. It would be different if my family had pasture land and an existing cattle operation.
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wayneNWAR
Posted 8/12/2015 21:07 (#4730295 - in reply to #4730159)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


north west arkansas
1,000 if calf prices are good.
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wire farms
Posted 8/12/2015 21:12 (#4730312 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Nebraska
Paid for stock works now, if your lucky enough have it now your making money, if you don't have it now and jump in with high prices, your still gonna be living off bread crumbs in the future IMO. Cows aren't a get rich quick game like high dollar grain is.
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steelguitar
Posted 8/12/2015 21:16 (#4730319 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Dougherty, IA
Here in the corn belt I don't think a guy can make a living on just cows. They are a nice enterprise to compliment a row crop operatioN. I think the ultimate 1 man operation here is 800-1,000 crop acres and a cow herd of 40-100 to run on rough ground.
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Feeder
Posted 8/12/2015 21:17 (#4730326 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



South-East South Dakota
Just a handful. If you own a company that sells stuff to grain farmers.

The best part about that is you can tell everyone what they are doing wrong. Cause your an expert with cash.
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steelguitar
Posted 8/12/2015 21:22 (#4730345 - in reply to #4730326)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Dougherty, IA
Feeder - 8/12/2015 21:17

Just a handful. If you own a company that sells stuff to grain farmers.

The best part about that is you can tell everyone what they are doing wrong. Cause your an expert with cash.


Is this a shot at Jim? If it is I say that's a low blow. He is a good poster with good ideas that are outside of the box. We all need a little bit of that.
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Feeder
Posted 8/12/2015 21:30 (#4730372 - in reply to #4730345)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



South-East South Dakota
Take it however you take it. I ain't editing it.
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GCAT
Posted 8/12/2015 21:35 (#4730388 - in reply to #4730372)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Eastern Kansas
Lol.
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tjdub
Posted 8/12/2015 21:36 (#4730390 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



I think the biggest hurdle in my area is finding that "big block". It doesn't exist here and you could easily run yourself ragged if your herd is scattered.

From that thread below 30 doesn't even qualify as a part-time work as it's about the same amount of work as golfing. So I would say 1000 at least LOL.
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KLo
Posted 8/12/2015 21:41 (#4730400 - in reply to #4730326)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



Northeast, NE
Not sure if you are serious or trying to be funny, but I just lost a lot of respect for you...Not that you care what I think.
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Ben
Posted 8/12/2015 21:52 (#4730427 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


North Mo.
Well the question that begs to be answered IS WHAT IS COMFORTABLE? And yes the feeder post was a bit off color. I get those often from certain life forms.
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putt putt
Posted 8/12/2015 21:58 (#4730431 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


NW Iowa
So what is your definition of a comfortable?
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Direct Injected
Posted 8/12/2015 22:00 (#4730438 - in reply to #4730431)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


SW, Missouri
"One is one too many one more is never enough"
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Feeder
Posted 8/12/2015 22:05 (#4730452 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



South-East South Dakota
Take my comment however you want.

What I'm getting at is the question is how many to live comfortable. That's a HUGE difference from some guy with a hobby herd and a multi million dollar business.

That makes it a difference between him and a guy trying to scrape by with 100- 200 head.

Can't call me wrong there.
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270
Posted 8/12/2015 22:11 (#4730463 - in reply to #4730388)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


NE Nebraska
I've often wondered the same thing, not only for cows, but what about running a feedlot?
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Beefbiz
Posted 8/12/2015 22:16 (#4730475 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


all over Iowa

I crunched a bunch of numbers on this last year, and came up with a very similar number to yours - 300 head.  I made the assumption that harvested feed would be purchased or custom harvested (if you're doing all your own you should be charging yourself the opportunity cost anyhow) so that all family labor could focus on the cows.  At 20% equity in the cows and land take home income would be $60,000.  With cows and ground paid off take home income would be $300,000.  I'm pretty sure I based prices on the last 5 years average of feed and cattle markets.

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tj33
Posted 8/12/2015 22:21 (#4730486 - in reply to #4730427)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Ben - 8/12/2015 21:52

Well the question that begs to be answered IS WHAT IS COMFORTABLE? And yes the feeder post was a bit off color. I get those often from certain life forms.


I think that's a moving target for everyone. For some its just money, others put more value being own boss, liking what you do, living in home town, length of work day, challenge of work, ability to work with others, etc. For me it would be some combination of liking what I do and money so that I didn't think I should be doing something else. I still feel like I have to do something else but like the cows.
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GCAT
Posted 8/12/2015 22:30 (#4730503 - in reply to #4730475)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Eastern Kansas
That sounds pretty optimistic to me.
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JustIf
Posted 8/12/2015 22:31 (#4730507 - in reply to #4730475)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


-North Mo
Seem more millionaires become cowboys than cowboys become millionaires. I've heard it said that ranching is a 3 generation business: 1st gen makes it, second enjoys it, third looses it?? So with that guess the 2nd generation is the only one comfortable. .??
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carlsoncl
Posted 8/12/2015 22:34 (#4730511 - in reply to #4730083)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Beresford, SD
My Dream. 1000 cows, 2500 acres of row crops, 2500 head feed yard. That way I can sit in my 2500 HD in the air conditioning giving orders and living comfortably..............YA maybe when I'm 80! Until then I'll continue to be the chief of the scoop shovel.
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Jim
Posted 8/12/2015 22:37 (#4730517 - in reply to #4730427)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Driftless SW Wisconsin

The widely varying definitions of what constitutes a "comfortable living" makes this an unanswerable question.

Another way of looking at it:

University numbers a few years ago said it takes $500/yr to support a cow. That number is no doubt closer to 600 or 700 now. Lets say it takes $650/year to support/own a cow without arguing about what that includes. If we have a spring born calf sold in early winter at 650 lb or so, lets say it cost 50% of the cow or $325 to bring a calf from birth to 650 lb in the early winter.  So the cost per pair is around $975 or round it up to $1,000/year for a cow and 7-8 month old calf.

CME Nov 15 feeder calves are currently at $2.06.  Selling a 650 lb feeder calf in Nov @ 2.06 = $1339. gross income from the pair - $1000 annual expense for the pair = $339/year profit.

Theoretically a USA average herd of 50 cows selling 50 calves in the fall per year would produce a net income of approximately 50 x $339 = $16,950/year.

I believe the above University (Iowa State and U of MN were where I heard this type number a few years ago) numbers include some land amortization etc. The numbers are probably for an existing herd and does not include buying startup cows at today's prices.

Then to the original question: is $16,950/year net profit from a cow/calf operation a "comfortable living"?   Maybe a reasonable retirement income or supplement to off farm or row crop income?

By this logic, 100 cows would produce a net profit of about $34,000/year.  200 cows selling 200 calves/year would then produce a net profit of about $68,000/year.

edit to add: If 650 lb calves sell for $2.60 in the fall that 50 cow herd net profit moves from $16,950 to $21,400. Still no windfall but a reasonable supplemental income for more folks. But you still have around $100,000 (50 cows x $2000/cow?) tied up in cows alone to produce around $17k/year.

This also points out why calf prices need to stay up or there won't be many feeder calves to buy.  Even "dryloting" cow/calf....  how much facility investment and operating costs are you going to be able to invest and amortize to try to reduce the $1,000/year cost to produce one calf per year????



Edited by Jim 8/12/2015 23:20
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JustIf
Posted 8/12/2015 22:42 (#4730530 - in reply to #4730511)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


-North Mo
Why not 2500 head cows? Just well keep the numbers consistent - be a little tricky getting 2.5 calves a year from 1000 cows to fill your feed yard anyway.
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jc1206
Posted 8/12/2015 22:44 (#4730532 - in reply to #4730438)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


northern IL
I don't think there is a confortable number that will work year after year. Because of too many variables out there that you can be completely comfortable year in and year out.

Too much rain
Not enough rain
Diseases
Mud season
Winters that don't cooperate
Feed costs
Competition for markets
Peta
Cost of new equipment
Cost of repairs
Cost of living
Cost of PROPERTY TAXES
Water
I could go on forever .

I started building my cow herd while working on our family dairy farm at an early age . I always thought if I kept building numbers slowly that by the time I was 45 I would be comfortable enough with what ever number I was at to just level off there and be comfortable there . It seemed like more numbers always brought more challenges that you where never completely comfortable. Or that magic financial number was always just out of reach because of all the things I mentioned earlier.

In feeders defense theres two sayings that always come to mind that friends have told me.

" theres a difference between farming for money , and farming with money"

And a man with a lot of wealth told me he lived by the golden rules. "He who has the gold makes the rules"
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Beefbiz
Posted 8/12/2015 22:46 (#4730533 - in reply to #4730503)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


all over Iowa

It may seem to be optimistic, but it sure wouldn't be easy.  Just to get to the 20% equity starting point in cows and land would require over $300,000 cash; that's not going to be very easy for anyone.
JustIf is right, the successful and profitable ranches are usually multi-generational - it just takes too long to pay down all of the debt.  And hopefully you raise 'em right so they don't fritter it away.

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carlsoncl
Posted 8/12/2015 22:49 (#4730543 - in reply to #4730530)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Beresford, SD
there ya go make it 2500 cows too. consistency! HAHAHAH
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buckmaster
Posted 8/12/2015 22:52 (#4730550 - in reply to #4730517)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


ND

I think thats close on you'er numbers Jim 350 profit was close last year my depreciation was high so if calf prices drop so cold my depreciation.

But I can go ride around in the ranger looking at cows take em salt mineral really enjoy the day Do you think Waren Buffet enjoys life that much? I dont have much money but I would dare to say my life is richer than his. 

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Beefbiz
Posted 8/12/2015 22:53 (#4730553 - in reply to #4730543)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


all over Iowa

So in addition to your 2500 acres of row crop, how many acres do 2500 hd of cows need in your neighborhood?  Go big or go home!

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Beefbiz
Posted 8/12/2015 22:55 (#4730559 - in reply to #4730550)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


all over Iowa

+100
I don't think many of us are in this business to get rich in dollars, but we can all be rich in experience and memories.

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carlsoncl
Posted 8/12/2015 22:57 (#4730561 - in reply to #4730553)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Beresford, SD
You are taking me way to serious. That many cows would have to go west for the summer.
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countryflunky
Posted 8/12/2015 23:05 (#4730577 - in reply to #4730511)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


sc ks
carlsoncl - 8/12/2015 22:34

My Dream. 1000 cows, 2500 acres of row crops, 2500 head feed yard. That way I can sit in my 2500 HD in the air conditioning giving orders and living comfortably..............YA maybe when I'm 80! Until then I'll continue to be the chief of the scoop shovel.



Gracious sakes I would be happy with 200 cows and about 800-1000 acres of crops. You can have the feed yard.
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buckmaster
Posted 8/12/2015 23:07 (#4730580 - in reply to #4730533)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


ND

It can be done if you want it bad enough. I started in 2004 with a lone for 10 cows and owned 40 acres. If you want it go get it and don't sit and talking about it or saying you never had an opportunity. I have not inherited a penny.

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3weeksbehind
Posted 8/12/2015 23:24 (#4730603 - in reply to #4730561)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


NESD
At least you should have job security. Nobody will take the scoop shovel away, or they haven't from me yet.
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2hcattle
Posted 8/12/2015 23:27 (#4730604 - in reply to #4730561)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Southwest OK
Depends on your location, ambition, and management style.


For me, 500 would work, 1000 would be better.


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tjdub
Posted 8/13/2015 00:11 (#4730634 - in reply to #4730452)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



Feeder - 8/12/2015 21:05
That's a HUGE difference from some guy with a hobby herd and a multi million dollar business.

That makes it a difference between him and a guy trying to scrape by with 100- 200 head.


If a guy runs a multi-million dollar buisness growing row crops, does that make him the subject of your ridicule if he posts here about his small cattle herd?
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tjdub
Posted 8/13/2015 00:16 (#4730635 - in reply to #4730507)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?



JustIf - 8/12/2015 21:31

Seem more millionaires become cowboys than cowboys become millionaires. I've heard it said that ranching is a 3 generation business: 1st gen makes it, second enjoys it, third looses it?? So with that guess the 2nd generation is the only one comfortable. .??


FWIW, I've heard it said like this: "The first generation buys the ranch, the second generation pays for it, and the third generation loses it".
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Beefbiz
Posted 8/13/2015 02:00 (#4730657 - in reply to #4730561)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


all over Iowa
LOL no not that serious, just counting up the total acres in your dream. I figured you'd have to go west river with them.
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garvo
Posted 8/13/2015 05:44 (#4730706 - in reply to #4730372)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


western iowa,by Denison
Feeder - 8/12/2015 21:30

Take it however you take it. I ain't editing it.


Kinda like a feedlot feeder-big difference when a guy is by himself feeding a lot of cattle compared to a feeder that has lot of relatives around day in day out-and then have enough gumption to tell you what your doing wrong
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Jim
Posted 8/13/2015 15:35 (#4731464 - in reply to #4730580)
Subject: RE: So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living?


Driftless SW Wisconsin
Good approach in many areas of life. Congratulations.
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