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So how many cows does it take to make a comfortable living? Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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tj33 |
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Jim's thread a couple days ago got me wondering what most think. I mean with +/-current prices, no crops, job in town, custom hire, etc. I always thought around 350 mommas. That way could afford to hire one good full time guy and still have enough left to be pretty comfortable. I don't think I could handle more than 200 unless I could find one big block of ground to run them on or hired hay, fencing, etc. I know the number will be different for different areas, equity in farm, land prices, local job opportunities, etc. | |||
Producer33 |
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That's a good question. Ask that again when calves go to $1.20 lb. | |||
tj33 |
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Kinda expecting some salty replies. | |||
91944 |
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new prague mn | few years ago sold some 44 cents | ||
a4t-1600 |
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Dearfield Co. | One more than you own and have pasture for | ||
GCAT |
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Eastern Kansas | Are the cows paid for? | ||
johnwayne360 |
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near dyersville iowa | too many. the old standard was figure $100/hd profit. 250 gets you 25k. That aint a lot. Maybe times have changed, but I'm not sure you could average $200 profit/head over a 20 year span. | ||
tj33 |
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My thoughts were that if you had a lot of equity in operation, you would put your money elsewhere if it earned same or more with no labor (dividends, interest, land rent, etc). So, probably wouldn't have cows if it wasn't the best return on investment vs other options. | |||
don jr |
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1 or 100. Usually 2 or more. A cow usually has some fool to feed her, and they make a very comfortable living. Most of the time they get a job with water, an occasional conjugal visit, and plenty of grass and usually some shelter. They lounge around most of the day, don't follow many orders, and occasionally find some kind of trouble to get into or something to tear up. Yup, they's comfortable around here..... | |||
zfisher70 |
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VA | I have often wondered the same thing my dad always said 200 if you own only enough land to dry lot them on and lease everything else right (land rent here is at tax value or right above) and if you only had one piece of equipment financed at a time and all your cows paid for. This took him 20 years to accomplish and the year he did he died so who knows if it is actually true just my two cents I'm gonna try it as well | ||
1156versatile |
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Strathcona, mn | We just had this talk while working today. I personally got out of cattle a few years ago. I had enough fun having hobby cows as seldom did they pay more than there way. I have two younger guys who help me out that are all hot to buy cows. One bough 30 pair at $3250 earlier this year. I told them to be careful. Money is good now but be ready for the days when all they do is pay their feed bill. If you had all the land paid for, cattle paid for, equipment paid for and just had to figure depreciation, land taxes, operating expenses, etc... I'd think 200 head would support a good living. Problem is to get there you'd have to have 1 to 1.5 million in holding a to make a living. Personally I would have better things to do with that amount of money than have cattle. It would be different if my family had pasture land and an existing cattle operation. | ||
wayneNWAR |
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north west arkansas | 1,000 if calf prices are good. | ||
wire farms |
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Nebraska | Paid for stock works now, if your lucky enough have it now your making money, if you don't have it now and jump in with high prices, your still gonna be living off bread crumbs in the future IMO. Cows aren't a get rich quick game like high dollar grain is. | ||
steelguitar |
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Dougherty, IA | Here in the corn belt I don't think a guy can make a living on just cows. They are a nice enterprise to compliment a row crop operatioN. I think the ultimate 1 man operation here is 800-1,000 crop acres and a cow herd of 40-100 to run on rough ground. | ||
Feeder |
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South-East South Dakota | Just a handful. If you own a company that sells stuff to grain farmers. The best part about that is you can tell everyone what they are doing wrong. Cause your an expert with cash. | ||
steelguitar |
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Dougherty, IA | Feeder - 8/12/2015 21:17 Just a handful. If you own a company that sells stuff to grain farmers. The best part about that is you can tell everyone what they are doing wrong. Cause your an expert with cash. Is this a shot at Jim? If it is I say that's a low blow. He is a good poster with good ideas that are outside of the box. We all need a little bit of that. | ||
Feeder |
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South-East South Dakota | Take it however you take it. I ain't editing it. | ||
GCAT |
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Eastern Kansas | Lol. | ||
tjdub |
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I think the biggest hurdle in my area is finding that "big block". It doesn't exist here and you could easily run yourself ragged if your herd is scattered. From that thread below 30 doesn't even qualify as a part-time work as it's about the same amount of work as golfing. So I would say 1000 at least LOL. | |||
KLo |
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Northeast, NE | Not sure if you are serious or trying to be funny, but I just lost a lot of respect for you...Not that you care what I think. | ||
Ben |
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North Mo. | Well the question that begs to be answered IS WHAT IS COMFORTABLE? And yes the feeder post was a bit off color. I get those often from certain life forms. | ||
putt putt |
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NW Iowa | So what is your definition of a comfortable? | ||
Direct Injected |
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SW, Missouri | "One is one too many one more is never enough" | ||
Feeder |
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South-East South Dakota | Take my comment however you want. What I'm getting at is the question is how many to live comfortable. That's a HUGE difference from some guy with a hobby herd and a multi million dollar business. That makes it a difference between him and a guy trying to scrape by with 100- 200 head. Can't call me wrong there. | ||
270 |
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NE Nebraska | I've often wondered the same thing, not only for cows, but what about running a feedlot? | ||
Beefbiz |
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all over Iowa | I crunched a bunch of numbers on this last year, and came up with a very similar number to yours - 300 head. I made the assumption that harvested feed would be purchased or custom harvested (if you're doing all your own you should be charging yourself the opportunity cost anyhow) so that all family labor could focus on the cows. At 20% equity in the cows and land take home income would be $60,000. With cows and ground paid off take home income would be $300,000. I'm pretty sure I based prices on the last 5 years average of feed and cattle markets. | ||
tj33 |
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Ben - 8/12/2015 21:52 Well the question that begs to be answered IS WHAT IS COMFORTABLE? And yes the feeder post was a bit off color. I get those often from certain life forms. I think that's a moving target for everyone. For some its just money, others put more value being own boss, liking what you do, living in home town, length of work day, challenge of work, ability to work with others, etc. For me it would be some combination of liking what I do and money so that I didn't think I should be doing something else. I still feel like I have to do something else but like the cows. | |||
GCAT |
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Eastern Kansas | That sounds pretty optimistic to me. | ||
JustIf |
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-North Mo | Seem more millionaires become cowboys than cowboys become millionaires. I've heard it said that ranching is a 3 generation business: 1st gen makes it, second enjoys it, third looses it?? So with that guess the 2nd generation is the only one comfortable. .?? | ||
carlsoncl |
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Beresford, SD | My Dream. 1000 cows, 2500 acres of row crops, 2500 head feed yard. That way I can sit in my 2500 HD in the air conditioning giving orders and living comfortably..............YA maybe when I'm 80! Until then I'll continue to be the chief of the scoop shovel. | ||
Jim |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | The widely varying definitions of what constitutes a "comfortable living" makes this an unanswerable question. Another way of looking at it: University numbers a few years ago said it takes $500/yr to support a cow. That number is no doubt closer to 600 or 700 now. Lets say it takes $650/year to support/own a cow without arguing about what that includes. If we have a spring born calf sold in early winter at 650 lb or so, lets say it cost 50% of the cow or $325 to bring a calf from birth to 650 lb in the early winter. So the cost per pair is around $975 or round it up to $1,000/year for a cow and 7-8 month old calf. CME Nov 15 feeder calves are currently at $2.06. Selling a 650 lb feeder calf in Nov @ 2.06 = $1339. gross income from the pair - $1000 annual expense for the pair = $339/year profit. Theoretically a USA average herd of 50 cows selling 50 calves in the fall per year would produce a net income of approximately 50 x $339 = $16,950/year. I believe the above University (Iowa State and U of MN were where I heard this type number a few years ago) numbers include some land amortization etc. The numbers are probably for an existing herd and does not include buying startup cows at today's prices. Then to the original question: is $16,950/year net profit from a cow/calf operation a "comfortable living"? Maybe a reasonable retirement income or supplement to off farm or row crop income? By this logic, 100 cows would produce a net profit of about $34,000/year. 200 cows selling 200 calves/year would then produce a net profit of about $68,000/year. edit to add: If 650 lb calves sell for $2.60 in the fall that 50 cow herd net profit moves from $16,950 to $21,400. Still no windfall but a reasonable supplemental income for more folks. But you still have around $100,000 (50 cows x $2000/cow?) tied up in cows alone to produce around $17k/year. This also points out why calf prices need to stay up or there won't be many feeder calves to buy. Even "dryloting" cow/calf.... how much facility investment and operating costs are you going to be able to invest and amortize to try to reduce the $1,000/year cost to produce one calf per year???? Edited by Jim 8/12/2015 23:20 | ||
JustIf |
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-North Mo | Why not 2500 head cows? Just well keep the numbers consistent - be a little tricky getting 2.5 calves a year from 1000 cows to fill your feed yard anyway. | ||
jc1206 |
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northern IL | I don't think there is a confortable number that will work year after year. Because of too many variables out there that you can be completely comfortable year in and year out. Too much rain Not enough rain Diseases Mud season Winters that don't cooperate Feed costs Competition for markets Peta Cost of new equipment Cost of repairs Cost of living Cost of PROPERTY TAXES Water I could go on forever . I started building my cow herd while working on our family dairy farm at an early age . I always thought if I kept building numbers slowly that by the time I was 45 I would be comfortable enough with what ever number I was at to just level off there and be comfortable there . It seemed like more numbers always brought more challenges that you where never completely comfortable. Or that magic financial number was always just out of reach because of all the things I mentioned earlier. In feeders defense theres two sayings that always come to mind that friends have told me. " theres a difference between farming for money , and farming with money" And a man with a lot of wealth told me he lived by the golden rules. "He who has the gold makes the rules" | ||
Beefbiz |
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all over Iowa | It may seem to be optimistic, but it sure wouldn't be easy. Just to get to the 20% equity starting point in cows and land would require over $300,000 cash; that's not going to be very easy for anyone. | ||
carlsoncl |
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Beresford, SD | there ya go make it 2500 cows too. consistency! HAHAHAH | ||
buckmaster |
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ND | I think thats close on you'er numbers Jim 350 profit was close last year my depreciation was high so if calf prices drop so cold my depreciation. | ||
Beefbiz |
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all over Iowa | So in addition to your 2500 acres of row crop, how many acres do 2500 hd of cows need in your neighborhood? Go big or go home! | ||
Beefbiz |
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all over Iowa | +100 | ||
carlsoncl |
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Beresford, SD | You are taking me way to serious. That many cows would have to go west for the summer. | ||
countryflunky |
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sc ks | carlsoncl - 8/12/2015 22:34 My Dream. 1000 cows, 2500 acres of row crops, 2500 head feed yard. That way I can sit in my 2500 HD in the air conditioning giving orders and living comfortably..............YA maybe when I'm 80! Until then I'll continue to be the chief of the scoop shovel. Gracious sakes I would be happy with 200 cows and about 800-1000 acres of crops. You can have the feed yard. | ||
buckmaster |
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ND | It can be done if you want it bad enough. I started in 2004 with a lone for 10 cows and owned 40 acres. If you want it go get it and don't sit and talking about it or saying you never had an opportunity. I have not inherited a penny. | ||
3weeksbehind |
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NESD | At least you should have job security. Nobody will take the scoop shovel away, or they haven't from me yet. | ||
2hcattle |
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Southwest OK | Depends on your location, ambition, and management style. For me, 500 would work, 1000 would be better. | ||
tjdub |
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Feeder - 8/12/2015 21:05 That's a HUGE difference from some guy with a hobby herd and a multi million dollar business. That makes it a difference between him and a guy trying to scrape by with 100- 200 head. If a guy runs a multi-million dollar buisness growing row crops, does that make him the subject of your ridicule if he posts here about his small cattle herd? | |||
tjdub |
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JustIf - 8/12/2015 21:31 Seem more millionaires become cowboys than cowboys become millionaires. I've heard it said that ranching is a 3 generation business: 1st gen makes it, second enjoys it, third looses it?? So with that guess the 2nd generation is the only one comfortable. .?? FWIW, I've heard it said like this: "The first generation buys the ranch, the second generation pays for it, and the third generation loses it". | |||
Beefbiz |
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all over Iowa | LOL no not that serious, just counting up the total acres in your dream. I figured you'd have to go west river with them. | ||
garvo |
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western iowa,by Denison | Feeder - 8/12/2015 21:30 Take it however you take it. I ain't editing it. Kinda like a feedlot feeder-big difference when a guy is by himself feeding a lot of cattle compared to a feeder that has lot of relatives around day in day out-and then have enough gumption to tell you what your doing wrong | ||
Jim |
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Driftless SW Wisconsin | Good approach in many areas of life. Congratulations. | ||
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