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North Central Indiana | We purchased a new to us sprayer with a hydraulic pump. We were told to dump the return line directly into the transmission to not heat up the oil. We ran the 4430 over 80 acres and the traction clutch went out. I was assured by the Deere mechanic that the hydraulic pump had nothing to do with it. We had the clutch replaced and rebuilt the hydraulic pump. We sprayed about 140 acres, 110 yesterday and the clutch appears to be out again! Any correlation? Central Indiana |
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Callao Missouri | Someone gave you bad adice about the plumbing of that hydraulic orbit motor. You need to run the return back into the scv you are geting your oil supply from. The problem is when you dump the return to sump you starve the rest of the tractor for oil. The charge pump in those tractors is only a 7 gpm pump when new, add thirty years to that and it wears out some. Then combine that with a taxation on the system leting three or four gallons per minut back to sump from the way you have the sprayer plumbed and the first thing it does is starve the lubrication systmem for oil tring to supply the main hydraulic system. Your traction clutch is constantly bathed in oil while in the engauged position but disengauged the lube oil is cut off. The lube oil is used to cool the clutch disks. Jon |
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East of Dowagiac Michigan | Probably something simple clutches just don't wear that fast (without a lot of smoke).
I would check the free travel adjustment to see if it has slid.
edit : I'm thinking dry clutch don't really know what you have.
Edited by lylefarm 6/15/2008 09:53
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Kittitas Co. Wa. State | Traction clutch? do you mean the transmission clutch? Never heard it called a "traction clutch".
What type of Transmission? Quadrange or Powershift ?? With powershift's the "clutch" really is not a clutch per-se. It is an oil seal with spring tension holding the seal CLOSED. Depressing the clutch pedal simply allows the oil to escape back into the resevior-tractor stops moving. If the spring is worn out and/or the pedal is NOT adjusted correctly the oil will bypass constantly. In a Quad range there is an actual mechanical clutch.
Either way I believe the Mechanic is correct, there's direct no corralation between hydraulic outlets and clutch. IF you have a P.S. transmission there might be a correlation with the charge pump,, maybe. Did you have the hydraulic pressure's/output checked by the mechanic?
Both P.Shift or Quadrange both are pretty bullet proof transmissions/clutch's .
(Thou personally,, I hate the Q.R. as I farm hilly ground, and I am Constantly shifting ranges in the Q.R. when turning around at the end of the field which requires stopping. With a P.S. I simply shift down on the go, turn around, straighten out and shift back up. Trying to throttle way down-idle while turning around is the most ignorant thing a guy can do. Idle'd down out of the power band, having a tractor engine die when turning on hills can get a person dead or at least a really bent up tractor. Once It stops rolling over at the bottom of the hill.
Saw the results of "idling down" one time,, my Uncle managed to walk away,, but the JD 4430 looked real silly with a New Holland 480 (I believe that's the model number) 3 string baler sitting on top of the CAB !! That was after he killed the engine, flipped the tractor 2 X broke the baler loose from the tractor, wound up in a irrigation canal right side up with the baler sitting on top of the cab. |
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| Not sure what's happening to your tractor but I have two things for you. 1. the hyd. motors I have seen have a screw on them to adjust depending on whether the tractor is a open center or closed center system. You will have to check the pump book to see which way to adjust it. 2. On 4430's and 4630's I have seen a special hyd. filter cover with a fitting on it to dump the return oil from the pump. I don't know what set up you are using but I would say you need to check into this if yours is different. |
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North Central Indiana | The 4430 is a quad range. Deere mechanic refers to the main clutch as the traction clutch not to confuse it with the PTO clutch. We have a reducer installed on the input of the pump that reduces the flow of oil to the pump. The flow adjuster on the tractor hydraulic is barely open to allow only enough oil to get enough pressure for 10 gal per acre. Thanks for all of the feedback so far, but as you can see there are varying opinions on the problem. |
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south Texas , York Rife Freemason | CGinWTN - 6/15/2008 11:02
Not sure what's happening to your tractor but I have two things for you. 1. the hyd. motors I have seen have a screw on them to adjust depending on whether the tractor is a open center or closed center system. You will have to check the pump book to see which way to adjust it. 2. On 4430's and 4630's I have seen a special hyd. filter cover with a fitting on it to dump the return oil from the pump. I don't know what set up you are using but I would say you need to check into this if yours is different.
i have that filter housing on the 2630 ,about 150 $ . |
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western iowa | I have my sprayer pump powered with a power beyond. No problemes on my 4430 quad range spraying for 10 years. |
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| you need to reroute your return oil. do not return to transmission case. only no pressure case drain lines go there. you can install a power beyond block, or install a fitting and coupler into the plug on the side of the outlet, or get (or make) a ported filter cover to return oil into. you can drill and tap into the filter cover to install a hose to run to the back. just drill into the outside edge where it curves around. it has more material there. do not thread the fitting in too far as to hit the filter. i have made these many times. any one of these puts the return oil back into the main system (bypassing trans pump) sending it directly back to the front pump and cooler. the cooler only gets the extra oil that is not needed for hydraulic functions sent to it. the trans pump supplies the pressure for the clutches and lubing the trans. have the clutch pressure checked to make sure it is up to spec. you should lose hyd functions before the clutch is starved for pressure causing a problem, because of valves in the clutch valve housing. |
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Brazilton KS | What is the advantage of the clumsy filter return compared to just returning to the plug in the side of the SCV? Back to the original question, the only reason to not return to the hydraulic coupler is if you are worried about squirrels moving the lever the wrong way. Deere had a rubber stop to put in the hydraulic level slot to prevent that. |
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| I ran a 4630 QR for years with an Ace hyd. spray pump returning to the SCV along with a 7300 vacuum meter planter, and never had hyd oil heating problem. I Think you have recieved some bad advice on return plumbing. |
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Somerville, Indiana | squirrels??? |
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Princeton, MN | When you say the clutch went out what do you mean? What parts caused the failure? Did your mechanic check the pressures to the clutch before he split it? Did he use the proper tool to set the clutch, its kind of a tricky process. returning the oil to the sump will not cause this to happen as that is what happens when you put it in the scv, it dumps it right in the case anyways. You might have some bad valving to your clutch or something. I would start by checking pressures both hot and cold, then put a flowmeter on an scv to simulate a large hydraulic load and see if that changes |
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Brazilton KS | Gee, wonder where I might have picked up that term???? Think maybe it could have come from somebody over around Poseyville?  |
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| The clutches in both transmissions (powershift or quad-range) are made up of multiple friction disks and are cooled with pressure lube oil. There is one gear pump (charge pump) that supplies pressure oil to the clutches, feed to the rotary piston pump (implement pump) and leftover oil then goes to lube the transmission. If you route the return oil from the SCV's to sump instead of the normal return, you are essentially losing that amount of oil that would go to the lube circuit. The oil that is routed to return on the SCV's doesn't have to flow through the charge pump to get back to the suction side of the piston pump. |
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Southeast Florida | You need to go and hand the repair bill for both repair jobs to the jackass that told you to return the oil to sump! |
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | plowboy - 6/16/2008 11:40
What is the advantage of the clumsy filter return compared to just returning to the plug in the side of the SCV? Back to the original question, the only reason to not return to the hydraulic coupler is if you are worried about squirrels moving the lever the wrong way. Deere had a rubber stop to put in the hydraulic level slot to prevent that.
Most hydraulic drive Ace sprayer pumps used around "here" have the return line right back into the SCV port, and they all seemed to weep a little oil around the shaft seal. Ran mine 18 years that way until I flat wore out the pump shaft / housing.
Ace claimed that running the return oil into a restricted SCV and not returning oil to a 0 pressure port was why the seal weeps.
ACE finally gave up, as everyone was returning the things into a SCV port anyway.The new replacement ACE pump came with a restrictor for the hyd motor inlet, so the SCV could be run wide open, which was supposed to eliminate the back pressure when returning into the SCV.
The poor fit of the restrictor in the motor port, caused the restrictor seal ring to repeatedly blow out. I finally removed it and turned the SCV down to control the motor speed and ran it as I did with the old pump for 18 years. After 2 seasons, still no oil weep at the shaft seal, they must have a better design seal now :-)
This is on a 4450. |
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Martinsville, Ohio | Oakland City is a metropolis and Evansville is a major shipping point!
You guys are just too funny.
Ed |
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Southeast Florida | Jon isn't that what a case drain is for? On our custom built machines we have a case drain line that plumbs into the sump on the 10-60 series JD's. |
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | Fla Veggie Farmer - 6/16/2008 16:05
Jon isn't that what a case drain is for? On our custom built machines we have a case drain line that plumbs into the sump on the 10-60 series JD's.
I believe your right, a case drain is to relieve pressure from the motor shaft seal area, but the little ACE hydraulic motors have no provision for a case drain. |
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Ayr Queensland Australia 4807 | the transmission clutch etc , also before they fix it again ensure they check the pressures lube and clutch pressure |
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North Central Indiana | The mechanic from Deere who fixed it the first time assured me that the way it was plumbed was not the cause of the clutch going out. I will have the WARRENTY work setting at his door tomorrow morning when he comes to work. As far as a hydraulic sprayer pump on this tractor from now on, I don't think so. Based on the information so far I still am confused as some say okay and some say not okay. If we put the sprayer back on this tractor it'll be pto on the pump.
Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on our problem! |
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Southeast Florida | I wouldn't go that far but if you'd just plumb into the remotes and use a check valve so a "squirrel" doesn't pull the leave the wrong way wouldn't be any problem. The problem whoever told you to return to sump was trying to conquer is the oil seeping from around the shaft. I have several ACE pumps and they work just fine on my 50-55 series tractor they just leak. The correct way to do this is to get a motor with a case drain and plumb it to the sump to have 0 pressures on the pump shaft seal. |
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Grandfield, Ok. | Case drains are normally used when hydraulic motors are put in series because of back pressure. |
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Ayr Queensland Australia 4807 | the valve on the filter releif valve housing must be in the correct position this is for single acting cylinders and would cause the same problem as dumping it to sump , You must return the return oil back to charge if back pressure is a problem it can be worked around .
Also their are a couple of serial numbers ranges for perma clutch adjustments the adjustment rings are different sizes relating to serial number.
Edited by KelB 6/15/2008 23:20
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Deere 4430 traction clutch gone twice in two weeks
