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Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/15/2012 00:01 (#2752592)
Subject: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

So IF they actually ran 40 000 acres, they had one hired hand for every 570 acres. IF they farmed 27 000 acres, they had a guy for every 385 acres. A question or two then:

1. How many acres per hired man do the rest of us run?

2.How does that translate into cost per acre per year for labour, assuming say a basic, cheap 24 000 dollar wage to make her square?

For Stamp, it means he paid 24 000 bucks for every either 570 or 385 acres. This is equal to either 42, or 62 bucks an acre in hired labour costs.

My point is, he was spending WAY out of this world on labour alone, using these basic wages, and such for an average. Imagine the machinery costs per acre.

What I am saying, is where is the economy of scale we are all supposed to pursue, that the academic dufuses preach all the time? Grow, Grow, Grow!!!! They exhort, stating the costs will come down spread over more acres.

Here is the deal: My hired labour costs are zero, because I do it all myself. My machinery costs are maybe 5 or 10 bucks in parts a year, because I pull wrenches, and run used paid for machinery. I run about 1600 acres, tiny in todays world.

Show me the money, show me the efficiency, and show me the glorified "ECONOMIES OF SCALE!!!!!" I simpy do not see them. Where are they.

And one final note. To see this idiot and his nomination video, and realize his arrogant arse barely lasted past the filming, seeing the producer/narrator fawn and drool over his bins, his brains, and watching Stamp himself laugh about having bankers LAUGH him out of the office, is just too much.

What a crazy world. What a lie. A million in assets to 50 in debt. I should be able to go out and get 50M then, I guess! LOL 

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Keep on Truckin
Posted 12/15/2012 00:10 (#2752605 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


68791
Don't know the #'s that well but were any of those employees tied to the elevator?
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/15/2012 00:12 (#2752607 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!
Well I used 70, but the video said he had over 70, so I figured a few in the elevator would leave 70 for the rest. I dunno, I ain't there!
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customfarmer82
Posted 12/15/2012 00:18 (#2752615 - in reply to #2752607)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


ECKS
10 hands is more than enough for 40,000 acres.
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farmerboy50
Posted 12/15/2012 00:24 (#2752628 - in reply to #2752615)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


West Texas
Not with pivots. We have 1 to 2000 acres, and were spread way to thin in the summer.
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TMX864
Posted 12/15/2012 00:25 (#2752630 - in reply to #2752615)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Michigan
customfarmer82 - 12/15/2012 00:18

10 hands is more than enough for 40,000 acres.


Not when you have 10 combines and 8 grain carts in one field.
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rodrod5
Posted 12/15/2012 00:32 (#2752638 - in reply to #2752615)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Lubbock, Texas
I THINK (just my opinion and have no clue about the reality) many of those were probably at the elevator, selling chemicals and fert, running the choo choo train cars around, and doing all the other things that were NOT farming

on his website he had a trucking company, a demolition company, and a bunch of other BS going on

this goes back to what I said before.....when you start running a grain elevator, running a fert and chemical sales business, using your "farm" machinery to "make extra farm income doing demo work", and your farm trucks as a "trucking company" and then you turn around and tell yourself you are making a higher margin on your farming production you.....and worse when you use those "higher margins" to justify higher rents....YOU ARE A FOOL AND YOU WILL GO BROKE

running a grain elevator is being in the grain elevator business.....the profits you capture from that are profits from running a grain elevator......same with having a railroad spur......you are RUNNING A FREAKING RAILROAD SPUR not "capturing extra "farming" income"

all of those things an tie back into a slightly diversified vertically integrated business conglomerate producing a higher income for you as a sole owner or for a partnership or even small stock holder owned company......but if you pretend you are doing all of that as a "farmer" to capture a few more dollars an acre or a few more cents per bushel you will be just like this guy broke and highly in debt especially when you are taking most of that "extra income" and putting it into stupid high rents

he was just a really really bad business man and apparently a crook as well (I would have not said the crook part until the other information has come out) and he had no clue about having each business show a profit for itself, have reserves to cover bad crop years (like when you AND ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS) have weather issues and your expensive grain facility is setting idle or used at 25% and your choo choo tracks are rusting......and all of that is still costing you 100% of the payments.....but you have shifted money from there that you treated as "extra farm income" to stupid high rents and other poor economies of scale

I am sure many of those employees never even saw one of his farms or sat in one of his tractors and probably all had a use until he discovered that each business needs to be treated as a business and it needs to capture profits and rates of return that are comparable to other similar businesses and have reserves on hand similar to what comparable businesses hold instead of treating it as extra captured farm profits

Edited by rodrod5 12/15/2012 00:33
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kickinbull
Posted 12/15/2012 07:23 (#2752774 - in reply to #2752638)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


SC KY
My dad worked in the for the railroad industry for 33 years. What you just discribed on how he managed his business is why the rail companys are almost non exsistant. Then diverted money to invest in high rise hotels where they could party, built up large trucking company and many more, until there was nothing left to fix or repair the railroad.
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kinzepower
Posted 12/17/2012 09:02 (#2757390 - in reply to #2752774)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


SW Ontario
Anything like the CN Tower in Toronto, and according to Wiki...


"Its name "CN" originally referred to Canadian National, the railway company that built the tower. Following the railway's decision to divest non-core freight railway assets, prior to the company's privatization in 1995"
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Marlhauler
Posted 12/16/2012 10:19 (#2755061 - in reply to #2752638)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Vicksburg MI 49097
rodrod5 - 12/15/2012 00:32

I THINK (just my opinion and have no clue about the reality) many of those were probably at the elevator, selling chemicals and fert, running the choo choo train cars around, and doing all the other things that were NOT farming

on his website he had a trucking company, a demolition company, and a bunch of other BS going on

this goes back to what I said before.....when you start running a grain elevator, running a fert and chemical sales business, using your "farm" machinery to "make extra farm income doing demo work", and your farm trucks as a "trucking company" and then you turn around and tell yourself you are making a higher margin on your farming production you.....and worse when you use those "higher margins" to justify higher rents....YOU ARE A FOOL AND YOU WILL GO BROKE

running a grain elevator is being in the grain elevator business.....the profits you capture from that are profits from running a grain elevator......same with having a railroad spur......you are RUNNING A FREAKING RAILROAD SPUR not "capturing extra "farming" income"

all of those things an tie back into a slightly diversified vertically integrated business conglomerate producing a higher income for you as a sole owner or for a partnership or even small stock holder owned company......but if you pretend you are doing all of that as a "farmer" to capture a few more dollars an acre or a few more cents per bushel you will be just like this guy broke and highly in debt especially when you are taking most of that "extra income" and putting it into stupid high rents



he was just a really really bad business man and apparently a crook as well (I would have not said the crook part until the other information has come out) and he had no clue about having each business show a profit for itself, have reserves to cover bad crop years (like when you AND ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS) have weather issues and your expensive grain facility is setting idle or used at 25% and your choo choo tracks are rusting......and all of that is still costing you 100% of the payments.....but you have shifted money from there that you treated as "extra farm income" to stupid high rents and other poor economies of scale

I am sure many of those employees never even saw one of his farms or sat in one of his tractors and probably all had a use until he discovered that each business needs to be treated as a business and it needs to capture profits and rates of return that are comparable to other similar businesses and have reserves on hand similar to what comparable businesses hold instead of treating it as extra captured farm profits


In order to be successful on such a such a large scale you need competent help. You need to have Employees that you can trust to run things on their own. Many aspects of Stamps business could have been successful if run properly on their own.

Just the same you can't start with one grain Truck and $1,000.00 in the checking account, then borrow 68 Million and expect to pay it back. Stamps Father Thomas filed Bankruptcy too. I don't know Thomas personally, but have heard he was a very slippery con man.

I think Stamp kept expanding and borrowing more money because he could and because he already knew he could not pay back the previous smaller Loans.

I heard of this Guy named Barry,, he told the USA Citizens that if he was elected President, he would balance the Federal Budget his first three years in office and start to pay the Federal debt down. Instead he added 4 Trillion more to the Debt in 4 years.. now that's Insane.. besides that he can even print his own money with the Federal reserve.

He said if he could not turn the Economy around in 4 years he didn't deserve to be re-elected for a second time.. Too many people Drank the Obama Kool-aide too many people drank the Stamp Kool-aide too.
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dmax08
Posted 12/15/2012 10:08 (#2753037 - in reply to #2752615)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


customfarmer82 - 12/15/2012 00:18

10 hands is more than enough for 40,000 acres.


Not even close if theres pivots involved. 8 to 10 pivots can keep one guy alone tied up in the summer.
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mennoboy
Posted 12/15/2012 12:49 (#2753303 - in reply to #2752615)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Rivers, MB
customfarmer82 - 12/14/2012 23:18

10 hands is more than enough for 40,000 acres.


What part of the country can 10 hands do all the work required for a 40 000 ac farm??? Even at 4000 ac/combine, that leaves no one to truck at harvest.
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/15/2012 00:19 (#2752617 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!
Exactly my point! I am not sure what the other 60 did, twiddle their thumbs?
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seth47591
Posted 12/15/2012 04:47 (#2752707 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Monticello IL
surely a lot of the help was part timers that would have been under 15,000 for the year
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mr_sweet88
Posted 12/15/2012 07:05 (#2752750 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Iowa
Does it really matter what he did? I think it is quite funny how many people worry about others problems or what they see as problems. If we worried less about other people and more about what we could be doing better IMO we would be a lot better off.
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kickinbull
Posted 12/15/2012 07:18 (#2752765 - in reply to #2752750)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


SC KY
Mr. Sweet88, I tend to agree that we all need to take care of what we have control over. But I also am not going to stick my head in the sand thinking what happens around us doesn't effect us.
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humblefarmer
Posted 12/15/2012 07:21 (#2752770 - in reply to #2752765)
Subject: correct


indiana
It sure does effect us all , or atleast those of us who think paying their bills is important.
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Marlhauler
Posted 12/16/2012 10:29 (#2755080 - in reply to #2752765)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Vicksburg MI 49097
kickinbull - 12/15/2012 07:18

Mr. Sweet88, I tend to agree that we all need to take care of what we have control over. But I also am not going to stick my head in the sand thinking what happens around us doesn't effect us.


Stamp was stealing ground from all of the neighboring Farmers... now what was he doing that enabled him to offer almost double the rent rate of others? It certainly affected many other Farmers who lost ground to him.

People commented on here that anyone who lost land to Stamp was a fool for not having better long term rent contracts. So make a 5 year rent contract at a high rent rate and corn goes back to $4.00 per bushel and you can't pay your rent. Do you have to file Bankruptcy then?

I knew a slippery Farmer in my Area. He came in and offered big Rent in years that crop prices were high. Then the fine print in his Contract tied the actually rent paid to commodity prices. If corn didn't make $5.00 per bushel then he didn't pay the high rate he offered.

This would be a fair concept, but instead he would farm the land for 3-5 years and run down the fertility of the land and never pay the high rate offered to get the land do to low crop prices. Then move on to Greener pastures.
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Ed Winkle
Posted 12/15/2012 07:20 (#2752769 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Martinsville, Ohio
I don't think you want to do that! I guess it depends on your personality and your beliefs but I don't think most of us have those beliefs.

The best farm operations I have seen are generating up to 2 million US dollars per man and I wouldn't say they are getting rich because margins are so low in agriculture traditionally but yes they are making money, real money, profitable money. You have to average out the years in business but you have to generate more income per man than that.

Ed
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trebfms
Posted 12/15/2012 07:52 (#2752815 - in reply to #2752769)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Central Wisconsin
<p>What does the opertion look like. 1 man farming 1800 arces of corn and beans with no other help. 4 men doing the same on 9000 or so. It depends on your style and how much custom work you have done. If you do it all yourself I think that would be tough. If you irrigate impossible</p>

Edited by trebfms 12/15/2012 08:36
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rowcropper
Posted 12/15/2012 08:09 (#2752822 - in reply to #2752769)
Subject: 2 mil per man??



SC
Ed, please describe what an operation like this looks like. It doesn't exist in this part of the world that I know of.
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mkfarm
Posted 12/15/2012 08:31 (#2752848 - in reply to #2752769)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


SE MI
U must be figuring all money spent and earned to get 2 M. It would take 2000 acres operated by one person and have vegetables. I don't know how u figure 2M
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mkfarm
Posted 12/15/2012 08:35 (#2752855 - in reply to #2752769)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


SE MI
U must be figuring all money spent and earned to get 2 M. It would take 2000 acres operated by one person and have vegetables. I don't know how u figure 2M
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Thud
Posted 12/15/2012 12:32 (#2753280 - in reply to #2752855)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Near-north Ontario, French River
2000 acres of corn and beans , at least this year( and HERE) would have grossed $2MM. The net would be nowhere near that though. FWIW I think labour requirements will vary significantly depending on the crop mix and geographic area. Look to western Canada with vast fields and relatively low yield crops , where +50ft wide seeders are the norm. the labour/ac required in these areas will be much different than a 500 dairy farm in the US midwest where labour isneededfor milking/haying/seeding , all which can happen at the same time. Throw in custom work services, elevator sites,trucking etc and its quickly becomes a muddle of numbers when trying to figure out men/ac on a giving operation.
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Ed Winkle
Posted 12/15/2012 14:00 (#2753418 - in reply to #2753280)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Martinsville, Ohio

Yes, that is gross income. With crops and livestock it is possible. Remember long term margins in producation agriculture are in the 5% ballpark and could be lower or higher than that. Each operation has its own set of numbers and there is highs and lows in every category you compare.

Acres per man, I am familiar with operations at 1-2,000 acres per man.  I am sure that varies greatly too.

Ed



Edited by Ed Winkle 12/15/2012 14:03
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behog
Posted 12/15/2012 16:38 (#2753706 - in reply to #2753418)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


frederick, MD

Ed Winkle - 12/15/2012 14:00

Yes, that is gross income. With crops and livestock it is possible. Remember long term margins in producation agriculture are in the 5% ballpark and could be lower or higher than that. Each operation has its own set of numbers and there is highs and lows in every category you compare.

Acres per man, I am familiar with operations at 1-2,000 acres per man.  I am sure that varies greatly too.

Ed




Ed, I can certainly see how 1 person could pretty easily handle 2000 acres, esp in you part of the world and west where the fields are larger.  Just think about it, 12/23 row planter, plants easily 160 acres a day. more if you push.  A person could very simply plant 1000 acres of corn and 1000 acres of soybeans in a 20 day time frame.  spraying also.  Once I sprayed 600 acres in one day, by myself, nursed myself and fields where all over.  I did have someone to drive me back a forth a few times, and I was only topdressing small grains but you can see my point.


Of course harvest is going to require a truck driver.  If you can hire it out, great for you.  To tell you the truth, you would be sitting on your but a lot of the year. 


Too many farms are over labored and over equiped.  And it looks like stamp was probally one of them. 


      

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Brandon
Posted 12/15/2012 13:09 (#2753322 - in reply to #2752769)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Illinois
I think Ed isn't too far off in Midwest corn and soybean country. These 300-500 acre per man #'s I am hearing are not at all applicable "here". One and a half full time salaries here plus scattered part time that may equal a low full time equivalent for 2100 acres of corn and beans plus a 3600 head hog finishing barn. No custom hire, and we do our own spraying.
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semosandfarmer
Posted 12/15/2012 13:16 (#2753335 - in reply to #2753322)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



East Prairie, MO
We are 1 person per 1,000 acres on my farm and with the pivots (24 of them) that is barely enough in the heat of irrigation season, they can really keep you busy!
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northmofarm
Posted 12/15/2012 08:52 (#2752879 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: My dad and I do 2000ac


With a little help at harvest. You simply can't manage 40000 non wheat acres.
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tack
Posted 12/15/2012 09:13 (#2752913 - in reply to #2752879)
Subject: RE: My dad and I do 2000ac


Central Arkansas
Our biggest labor bottleneck is irrigation. When it's dry there aren't enough hours in a day to check pivots, levees, and pipelines.
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mennoboy
Posted 12/15/2012 10:00 (#2753021 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Rivers, MB
Canadieneh,

I think you've made some assumptions that make the #'s skewed probably. Its not inconceivable that there are 10 employees at the elevator, 10 at the trucking company, 5 at the excavating/demolition company. Then, if some of the employees are part-time or seasonal (just during harvest time), you could easily come up with that many people for a 40 000 ac farm that irrigates. I visited with a 10-15000 ac farmer from the Lethbridge area a few weeks back that ran 70 pivots. he said that irrigation season required more manpower than harvest did.


Economy of scale question. My thoughts are based on small grains only. My sense is that the really large farms are getting economies of scale in a few places. One would be ac/machine and the other would be in getting better deals on inputs and better deals on grain selling because of volume. The really large farms that i'm familiar with have a higher tolerance for harvest risk so feel comfortable pushing 3-4000 ac through a combine where most of the neighboring farms are pushing 2000 ac through a similar sized combine. Local 11 000 ac farm swaths 5-6000 ac of canola with 2 36' swathers where as many of the other neighboring farms swath 1000 ac of canola with 1 30' swather. One 10 000 ac farm about 20 miles away used to seed everything with one 60' drill whereas most other farms were seeding 5000 ac with the same size of drill. A 1000 ac farm has difficulty justifying (and providing a driver) for a grain cart whereas a 5000 ac farm with 2 combines can easily pencil out a grain cart. Not many 1000 ac farms have a SP sprayer whereas any farm over 3000 ac in our area runs their own SP sprayer.

Manpower. I think the better way to compare manpower/ac is to compare hours worked/acre. And only compare similar type of enterprises. My 15 ac vegetable growing friend has a very different hours/ac than our small grains farm. Comparing irrigated farms to dryland farms is not a worthy comparison. But when you do compare (or benchmark) your hours/ac, you need to take into account the amount of custom work hired, custom grain hauling hired etc. Its easy to skew the #'s pretty badly on a small farm if all the grain hauling is hired and you have a custom combiner to come in and do half your harvest. I'm quite familiar with many of our neighboring farms (most in the 1000-6000 ac size with one 11000 ac). As a rule, it seems that most of them have approximately 1 full-time equivalent person / 1000-1300 acres. Thats taking seasonal harvest guys that put in 500 ac/year and attributing that as a 1/4 of a full-time position. (and yes, the owner/managers are working more than 2000 hrs/year)

that being said, there are places where the large farms do lose some efficiency. And if those overwhelm the economies of scale, then you have a problem.

Lots can be learned from observing other farms and then applying the good ideas to our own farms. Thats what I like about AgTalk.

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IALTO
Posted 12/15/2012 11:15 (#2753149 - in reply to #2753021)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


WC MN
Good post. Lots of people making assumptions about things they have no experience with.
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1DH
Posted 12/15/2012 12:18 (#2753256 - in reply to #2753149)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


swia
t1
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Marlhauler
Posted 12/16/2012 10:41 (#2755114 - in reply to #2753149)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Vicksburg MI 49097
IALTO - 12/15/2012 11:15

Good post. Lots of people making assumptions about things they have no experience with.


If you make assumptions then some one can correct you or at least give a counter opinion and tell why they think different

If Wells Fargo would have gotten the opinion of 25 of Stamps Neighbors I bet they would not have loaned him 10 cents.

I suppose that is why local Banks have board members who might be more familiar with the area and what is going on with certain individuals.
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TrentonKY
Posted 12/15/2012 12:08 (#2753240 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Trenton, KY
My Dad, brother and I farm 1,650 all no-till acres in Southwestern KY in a corn, wheat, and double crop soybean rotation with no hired help. Yes, there are times when we could use another person, but we have been getting by just fine since the beginning of 2007 with just the three of us. So, technically speaking we have 550 acres / person.
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IALTO
Posted 12/15/2012 13:20 (#2753346 - in reply to #2753240)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


WC MN
Do you have livestock or work off the farm at all?
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TrentonKY
Posted 12/15/2012 22:23 (#2754382 - in reply to #2753346)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Trenton, KY
No livestock or off the farm occupations for any of us.
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Ben D, N CA
Posted 12/15/2012 12:29 (#2753276 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot
Your fooling yourself if you value your time at nothing because you do it all yourself. Management level help is pretty valuable, if capable your time should be worth quite a bit. Anyone can hold a steering wheel, but not everyone can run a farm.

I'm also going to assume you haven't been around an irrigated farm much. From what I understand they were an irrigated farm. Pivots are a lot better than some of the methods we use, but I can show you plenty of small 2-4000 acre farms here that have 10+ guys in the summer that do nothing but irrigate, let alone run the rest of the farm.
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/15/2012 13:30 (#2753362 - in reply to #2753276)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

Ben D, N CA - 12/15/2012 10:29 Your fooling yourself if you value your time at nothing because you do it all yourself. Management level help is pretty valuable, if capable your time should be worth quite a bit. Anyone can hold a steering wheel, but not everyone can run a farm. I'm also going to assume you haven't been around an irrigated farm much. From what I understand they were an irrigated farm. Pivots are a lot better than some of the methods we use, but I can show you plenty of small 2-4000 acre farms here that have 10+ guys in the summer that do nothing but irrigate, let alone run the rest of the farm.


Note that I was not including Stamp himself, just his hired men. I agree I made assumptions, but wow, to me regardless of the farm type, that is alot of people. They were not a dairy remember!

One more thing, Not saying any of you are like this, but up here there is the kind of guy who hires guys to pretty much wipe their bum in the morning. Some guys have trouble doing simple things on their own, some guys do complex things that three men would have trouble doing. I am somewhere in the middle. I have had many comments about me like," How the heck did you do that yourself? It's impossible!" LOL

My point is, for me it seemed high, granted the elevator and other rackets he had ebezzling funds needed men too. No question. Busy times, sure. But year round? To each his own, I guess. Depends how you do it, and such. Irrigation is another racket for sure. That too depends how you set it up though. Like everything, it can be labour intensive, or made simple.  

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Grasseed
Posted 12/15/2012 14:06 (#2753433 - in reply to #2753362)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Suver, Oregon
Irrigation is rarely simple.




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Ben D, N CA
Posted 12/15/2012 15:12 (#2753560 - in reply to #2753433)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot
Sure it is... if you've never done it. ;)

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Ben D, N CA
Posted 12/15/2012 15:19 (#2753568 - in reply to #2753362)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot
There seems to be a stigma on this website at times about farms who have some or many employees. Like the guys are lazy or something. Personally, driving tractors, combines and changing irrigation water are all pretty mundane, low skill tasks. Sure, there are a few specialized jobs that need a capable person (ie combine, potato harvesters, etc) but it doesn't have to be the owner of the operation. Personally I hate driving tractor. I'd much rather find someone else to hold the steering wheel so I can work on something else, hopefully something that will make me a better return than $10/hr.

If a guy is a good enough manager than he can hire someone to wipe his ass, more power to him. And I'm saying that as someone who hires very little help, my operation is small enough I do most of my own work.
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/15/2012 22:16 (#2754374 - in reply to #2753568)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

Ben D, N CA - 12/15/2012 13:19 There seems to be a stigma on this website at times about farms who have some or many employees. Like the guys are lazy or something. If a guy is a good enough manager than he can hire someone to wipe his ass, more power to him. And I'm saying that as someone who hires very little help, my operation is small enough I do most of my own work.


He is a terrible manager. He rode old money all the way from the birth canal. 

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Ben D, N CA
Posted 12/16/2012 14:06 (#2755612 - in reply to #2754374)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms



Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot
I don't have any 'old money'. There are plenty of people in this area who do. There are good operators and bad operators with and without. What I've noticed is a good operator can make a success with or without 'old money', and a poor operator can loose it all regardless. Sometimes that old money isn't all it has cracked up to be, and I think you'd do well to worry less about who's money is coming from where and just worry about making your own operation a good one.
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IALTO
Posted 12/16/2012 14:10 (#2755622 - in reply to #2755612)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


WC MN
Good post and very true
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Marlhauler
Posted 12/17/2012 12:00 (#2757655 - in reply to #2755612)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Vicksburg MI 49097
Ben D, N CA - 12/16/2012 14:06

I don't have any 'old money'. There are plenty of people in this area who do. There are good operators and bad operators with and without. What I've noticed is a good operator can make a success with or without 'old money', and a poor operator can loose it all regardless. Sometimes that old money isn't all it has cracked up to be, and I think you'd do well to worry less about who's money is coming from where and just worry about making your own operation a good one.


I am worried about what the Government is doing with OUR Money! Do we really need to pay for Nancy Pelosi to fly home to CA every weekend for her 3&4 Day weekends?
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/17/2012 13:15 (#2757795 - in reply to #2755612)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

Ben D, N CA - 12/16/2012 12:06 I don't have any 'old money'. There are plenty of people in this area who do. There are good operators and bad operators with and without. What I've noticed is a good operator can make a success with or without 'old money', and a poor operator can loose it all regardless. Sometimes that old money isn't all it has cracked up to be, and I think you'd do well to worry less about who's money is coming from where and just worry about making your own operation a good one.


My point is around here, the farmers with old money, and long ago paid for land, that never has to be bought again, are the ones doing very well. I have no problem with that. I do not worry about them like I did when I was younger. And for the record I am not jealous either. I would rather struggle honestly and have faith in God, and a great family, than have a bunch of stuff, get drunk on the weekends at age 45, and have no prospects for a family. I do believe it is easier to be a good operator when you do not have to scramble from year to year, and make forced sales decisions etc. to pay land debts etc. The guys with the luxury to not have to do this have it pretty  easy. I have some neighbors who are clearly not very bright. A small example. One guy only last year asked about using sulfur on canola, after the rest of us had been as a matter of course for 25 years! LOL. He has enough old money, old land, and is obviously smart enough with it so far at least, to not have to be all that up on agronomics. All I am saying, is it would be nice. HA HA. 

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Big Ben
Posted 12/15/2012 12:57 (#2753309 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Columbia Basin, Ephrata, WA
We run about 400 acres per full time guy. I'd say that ratio is not out of line around here. We're 100% irrigated, do all our own spraying, most of our harvesting, and custom cut and bag silage. We also grind and deliver corn to dairies year round, and spread a lot of manure from those dairies. Spring and fall require some additional part time help.

I think here a guy could farm 2,000 acres alone if everything was hired done except for some tillage, irrigation, and management. You'd have to have the right fields and custom operators to make it work. I suppose that would calculate to a gross of about $3 million with one guy, but is it really just one guy with so much work hired out?


Edited by Ben in the Basin 12/15/2012 13:07
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IADAVE
Posted 12/15/2012 14:06 (#2753431 - in reply to #2753309)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Several of the larger farms around here run 5-600 acres a man. Non irrigated too. I have 3 men on 1,000 acres row crop. Me , Myself and I! LOL In all honesty a one man show in farming is almost impossible because of the need to move from farm to farm. It would be a bugger if Dad didn't help once in a while! Dad always says he didn't help but I always tell him that would have been a looong walk!!
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TMX864
Posted 12/15/2012 19:47 (#2754070 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Michigan
Pretty easy to see where employees add up. For instance, 10 combines and 8 grain carts= 18 guys. Now add that with some of the distances they were traveling and in good corn with 12 row machines you would easily need 2 trucks per combine. Now your up to 38 guys. Now add the 5 or 6 guys who are running chisel plows behind them and the other few keeping the spreader trucks going and your at 50. Add some mechanics, elevator guys, extra truckers, and office workers and your at 70.

You guys thinking in terms of a couple thousand are probably also thinking interms of farming in a 20 mile or less radius. These guys were running around 6 counties. You loose efficiency by having to travel those distances and in turn must make up time by adding machines to get field work done quicker. I'm not defending them or saying they were doing it the right way. And I'm not sure my numbers are completely accurate (from what I heard I think they are conservative) all I'm saying is I can see where you get numbers like that with the way they were set up.
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/15/2012 22:18 (#2754376 - in reply to #2754070)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

TMX864 - 12/15/2012 17:47 Pretty easy to see where employees add up. For instance, 10 combines and 8 grain carts= 18 guys. Now add that with some of the distances they were traveling and in good corn with 12 row machines you would easily need 2 trucks per combine. Now your up to 38 guys. Now add the 5 or 6 guys who are running chisel plows behind them and the other few keeping the spreader trucks going and your at 50. Add some mechanics, elevator guys, extra truckers, and office workers and your at 70. You guys thinking in terms of a couple thousand are probably also thinking interms of farming in a 20 mile or less radius. These guys were running around 6 counties. You loose efficiency by having to travel those distances and in turn must make up time by adding machines to get field work done quicker. I'm not defending them or saying they were doing it the right way. And I'm not sure my numbers are completely accurate (from what I heard I think they are conservative) all I'm saying is I can see where you get numbers like that with the way they were set up.


I understand all that. But how much of the year constitutes seeding and harvest?  When you have guys standing around and picking their nose the rest of the year, it affects the bottom line.  

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Marlhauler
Posted 12/16/2012 11:22 (#2755218 - in reply to #2754376)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Vicksburg MI 49097
canadianeh? - 12/15/2012 22:18

TMX864 - 12/15/2012 17:47 Pretty easy to see where employees add up. For instance, 10 combines and 8 grain carts= 18 guys. Now add that with some of the distances they were traveling and in good corn with 12 row machines you would easily need 2 trucks per combine. Now your up to 38 guys. Now add the 5 or 6 guys who are running chisel plows behind them and the other few keeping the spreader trucks going and your at 50. Add some mechanics, elevator guys, extra truckers, and office workers and your at 70. You guys thinking in terms of a couple thousand are probably also thinking interms of farming in a 20 mile or less radius. These guys were running around 6 counties. You loose efficiency by having to travel those distances and in turn must make up time by adding machines to get field work done quicker. I'm not defending them or saying they were doing it the right way. And I'm not sure my numbers are completely accurate (from what I heard I think they are conservative) all I'm saying is I can see where you get numbers like that with the way they were set up.


I understand all that. But how much of the year constitutes seeding and harvest?  When you have guys standing around and picking their nose the rest of the year, it affects the bottom line.  



I stopped at Stamps shop one Friday afternoon.. there was 4-5 guys in there drinking Beer and smoking cigarettes , I didn't ask if they were still on the time clock or not. They were very suspicious of me like I was a Spy or something. Stamp was so hated by many neighbors, that I think they had a tight inner circle in his operation.

Of course now the Question is how many knew what was going on that was not legal and where did the hidden money get hid at?
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wshowardfarms@gmail.
Posted 12/16/2012 21:51 (#2756731 - in reply to #2754070)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


EC Indiana
Could someone please send this memo to Allen Lash??
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garvo
Posted 12/15/2012 22:41 (#2754428 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


western iowa,by Denison
geez and my goal is to farm less-would like to farm 329 acres and have a full time man-whats wrong with my goal-I could get my picture on Top Producer and everyone would envy me!
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canadianeh?
Posted 12/16/2012 00:44 (#2754648 - in reply to #2754428)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

garvo - 12/15/2012 20:41 geez and my goal is to farm less-would like to farm 329 acres and have a full time man-whats wrong with my goal-I could get my picture on Top Producer and everyone would envy me!


LOL!!! 

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canadianeh?
Posted 12/16/2012 00:49 (#2754655 - in reply to #2754428)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Saskatchewan, big whitetail country!!!

garvo - 12/15/2012 20:41 geez and my goal is to farm less-would like to farm 329 acres and have a full time man-whats wrong with my goal-I could get my picture on Top Producer and everyone would envy me!


LOL!!! 

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Marlhauler
Posted 12/16/2012 10:06 (#2755031 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: RE: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Vicksburg MI 49097
canadianeh? - 12/15/2012 00:01

So IF they actually ran 40 000 acres, they had one hired hand for every 570 acres. IF they farmed 27 000 acres, they had a guy for every 385 acres. A question or two then:

1. How many acres per hired man do the rest of us run?

2.How does that translate into cost per acre per year for labour, assuming say a basic, cheap 24 000 dollar wage to make her square?

For Stamp, it means he paid 24 000 bucks for every either 570 or 385 acres. This is equal to either 42, or 62 bucks an acre in hired labour costs.

My point is, he was spending WAY out of this world on labour alone, using these basic wages, and such for an average. Imagine the machinery costs per acre.

What I am saying, is where is the economy of scale we are all supposed to pursue, that the academic dufuses preach all the time? Grow, Grow, Grow!!!! They exhort, stating the costs will come down spread over more acres.

Here is the deal: My hired labour costs are zero, because I do it all myself. My machinery costs are maybe 5 or 10 bucks in parts a year, because I pull wrenches, and run used paid for machinery. I run about 1600 acres, tiny in todays world.

Show me the money, show me the efficiency, and show me the glorified "ECONOMIES OF SCALE!!!!!" I simpy do not see them. Where are they.

And one final note. To see this idiot and his nomination video, and realize his arrogant arse barely lasted past the filming, seeing the producer/narrator fawn and drool over his bins, his brains, and watching Stamp himself laugh about having bankers LAUGH him out of the office, is just too much.

What a crazy world. What a lie. A million in assets to 50 in debt. I should be able to go out and get 50M then, I guess! LOL 



How many Employees did you figure? In the Video Stamp said 40 Employees 72 including part time or seasonal help. Stamp had a small excavating business. Stamp owned a Grain Elevator and Feed Mill and Fetilizer Dealership. Not all of his Emplyees are involved in the acres farmed.

I would take a wild guess that Stamp owned 20 Trucks. Stamp did a lot of custom farming. He did custom Harvesting and Planting and Grain Harvesting.

Now her is the Catch he was paying almost double the rent that is normal for SW MI For several years I was wondering if he could save enough money buying seed and Fertilizer direct at Dealer costs.

Stamp was paying $200.00 per acre rent dry land and $400.00 to $585.00 per acre rent for Irrigated. Stamp installed Center Pivots on a lot of rented ground with 5 year or maybe 10 year rent contracts. I am guessing he paid a lot lower rent if he borrowed the money for Pivots or if was paying the Lease on the Pivots.

Also he did custom application dry fertilizer lime and spraying herbicides, so it's really hard to tell how many Employees he had actually farming his rented and owned land.

I read an article in a Farm Magazine years ago telling how Farmers in North Dakota ran old equipment that they re-built in the winter. In my area because of the seed corn business ect.. it's mind blowing how much brand new Equipment Farmers have.
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assault
Posted 12/16/2012 14:18 (#2755636 - in reply to #2752592)
Subject: Re: Hired men per acre, and Stamp farms


Iowa
Quite the story, keep the updates coming.
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