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sparrell

Posted 1/13/2008 19:04 (#282455)
Subject: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Finally got my own sprayer in an attempt to save money and hopefully do as good as or a better job than the custom sprayer but now I need some advice on AMS for gylphosate spraying.

What I know so far:

1) Weeds must be killed pretty much regardless of the cost difference of these products, so I do not want to use a "cheaper" and more convienant alternative if they do not work well. However, if the AMS replacement products actually work as well as real AMS, I'd likely use them. I am hestitant to use them because all of the lables suggest to use AMS, not AMS replacement. I figure that if AMS replacements really worked, big M (and others) would package some up, recommend them on the herbicide label, and make more profit for themselves. Any of them work well?

2) We have very hard water so something is needed.

3) Custom sprayer refused to spray dry AMS for me, said he does not have the time to deal with the problems it causes. I assume he was referring to plugging. How should it be used so I do not have plugging issues ( maybe not possible?)

4) All the liquid AMS blends I have come across have additional surfactant in them which I do not think is necessary (mainly because the herbicide label states additional surfactant are not needed). Are their any out there that are just pure AMS and water that can be had more economically than the blends?

TIA

Ron..NE ILL..10/48

Posted 1/13/2008 19:21 (#282474 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Chebanse, IL.....

I have never been able to figure out why AMS type products are not incorporated into the glyphosate product either. 99% of people use it, I believe.

I've used dry granular (aka spray grade) AMS (21-0-0-S) for many yrs & have never-ever had a plugged nozzle due to AMS granule. I've used all kinds of tips also.

In 2006 we started using a liquid AMS substitute product called Synurgize. I learned about it right here on NAT Crop Talk page. A couple posters had been using it successfully for a few yrs before that. I have no idea how I would know whether or not AMS or it's substitutes are working or not. I spray glyphosate & almost all non-RR plants die. But, I like using the Synurgize product. Price seems right to me.

I don't have a CCA thing, so I don't/won't make recommendations. But, we'll be using it again in '08 on all our RRC & RRSB applications.

Here's label info:

http://www.agxplore.com/products/synurgize.html

dutch

Posted 1/14/2008 23:20 (#283490 - in reply to #282474)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

West Texas

I will not use dry AMS products. Prefer to never see another dry product no matter what it is.
For AMS we use Bronc or Choice. never had a spray fail because of it and it's 100 times easier to use then dry AMS. As much as I have to spray in a short amount of time I can't afford to be down because of the product I'm applying. It has happened though.

4Clipper

Posted 1/13/2008 19:35 (#282484 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

N.W. Livingston County, IL

We quit using dry AMS years ago. We went to a liquid product called Trendsorb. Water conditioner that you add at a rate of 1 quart per 100 gal of solution. It runs about $11.00/ gal so it is cheaper than dry AMS. It is a dream to mix and works great. We have been using it for five years.

Chadalliac

Posted 1/13/2008 20:50 (#282551 - in reply to #282484)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

north central Missouri

I use to work for a elevator running an applicator for 7 years we bought ams by the semi load in bulk and just mixed it with water in the fert mixer so that it came out as a rate of 6 gal/100 gal it worked good no tip problems but the last year I was there we switched to using request I am guessing it is the same as the other posters are referring to the reason we switched was because it was not corrosive as AMS . AMS is as corrosive as nitrogen or potash maybe even worse. And also eliminated hauling 1000 gal of liquid ams around a 60 gal shuttle would last a lot longer than 1000 gal of ams. Just my 2 cents but probably not worth a penny LOL.

Chad

Jon S

Posted 1/13/2008 20:53 (#282553 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

We were having performance issues with Touchdown Total, which we later think may have been because the water was not soft enough. In our meeting with Syngenta on Friday this topic was discussed briefly. It is my contention that the AMS needs to be added prior to the Glyphosate. The sulfer needs to bind with the calcium prior to glyphosate interaction. The Syngenta rep said it didn't matter which was added first. I still disagree, but don't really have any proof yet to back up my theory. I'm working on that. When we used to mix "Array" (dry ams & guar) with water in the nurse trucks we didn't have any problems. This past year we switched to "Class Act" (liquid ams & surfactant) and mixed it in the field. Some guys mixed it last and some guys mixed it first. We had mixed results. To make a long story short you can use dry ams providing it is "spray grade" without any problems (clogging). I happen to think that "Class Act" is a very good product. I mixed it with generic glyphosate on my own farm as a trial, and was very pleased with the pokeweed killing power and I have some VERY hard water.

sparrell

Posted 1/13/2008 20:59 (#282561 - in reply to #282553)
Subject: Class Act

Class Act is what my custom sprayer uses. I'm sure it works great at the labelled rate, but by my calculations it is way too expensive. Label says to get 17/lbs ams per 100 gal of water one has to use 5 gal class act per 100 gal of water. I was quoted $12.75 gal prepay. Even at 10 gal water/ acre that comes to over $6 acre for the AMS?

coup

Posted 1/13/2008 21:12 (#282581 - in reply to #282561)
Subject: RE: Class Act

USA

There are several AMS replacement products on the market, they are not AMS. If you look at the Synurgize label it is not liquid AMS. It sounds like Class Act is a liquid AMS product.

This is the third year I have sold Synurgize and my dry AMS sales have dropped dramaticly because of this product. Not saying that Synurgize is any better than any of the other AMS replacement products, it just happens to be the one I got hooked up with. The majority of the people I deal with would not use dry AMS if you give it to them for free after using Synurgize. It is a whole lot easier dumping 2.5 gal of Synurgize in a 1000 gal of H2O than wrestling 51lb dry AMS bags around, plus Synurgize contains a half rate of anti - foam and anti - drift.

Edited by coup 1/13/2008 21:16

CenILL

Posted 1/13/2008 21:19 (#282588 - in reply to #282581)
Subject: RE: Class Act

How much is Synurgize per gal? I see you use 1 qt/100.

coup

Posted 1/13/2008 21:20 (#282591 - in reply to #282588)
Subject: RE: Class Act

USA

$9 per gal.

Nelson

Posted 1/14/2008 10:40 (#282945 - in reply to #282561)
Subject: RE: Class Act

You do not need to use 5 gal per hundred. I use 2.5 gal per hundred of Class Act. If you wanted to, you could probably get away with 1.25 gal per hundred. Depends on how hard your water is. But I have used a LOT of Class Act at 2.5 per hundred. Very good product by the way. Kills noticibly faster than dry AMS. I got my class act for less than that too fwiw.

Nelson

Jason Hinson

Posted 1/13/2008 21:24 (#282598 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Kingston, Iowa

We use Choice or Request, quit the dry AMS several years ago. Main reason being my previous spray rig didn't have enough aggitation to mix to dissolve it. Had to mix it up in a bucket before dumping in.

Phred

Posted 1/14/2008 06:52 (#282800 - in reply to #282598)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

NE Mo

We looked into how Choice and dry AMS works a few years ago. Found that AMS will tie one ion up in the spray water. Choice will tie up all but one ion. So from our research into the matter, Choice is superior and the product of choice. But Monsanto will not agree I'm sure.

Ed Winkle

Posted 1/13/2008 21:26 (#282600 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: Who has a good spray guide?

Martinsville, Ohio

Has anyone written a spray guide from the farmers viewpoint?

I used to have a good one written by Custom Chemicides in California but it didn't have all the potential problems included. It got us into AMS and lowering water pH for certain pesticides.

Ed Winkle

Binderman

Posted 1/13/2008 21:56 (#282647 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

We got tired of using AMS as it was sometimes hard and didn't like those 51 pound bags so we looked around at some products. The water conditiners didn't have enough "umpf" when weeds were tall or it was dry. They were easy and cheap, but 1 year I am sure they cost us 2-3 bushels of beans due to bad weed cntrl vs Aray that a different dealer sold us - guess cheap and easy means you can lose your shirt!!!!!!

Since we started working with this new dealer and he sold us on Aray we wouldn't use anything else now. We can go to the dealers lot and have him put it and water in our nurse tank through a machine he has set-up for it or he has bags that treat 1 tank (500 gallons) with one bag - 45 lbs. if we are spraying away from that area. It is ground AMS and mixes good with no chuncks in it. It also has some product in it that keeps the spray pattern tight and you can spray next to other crops and it doesn't drift into them like it would without it.

Just me $0.02 worth.

coup

Posted 1/13/2008 22:08 (#282667 - in reply to #282647)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

USA

The worst trouble with Array is the cost. At 10 gal of water the cost is in the $1.35 to $1.50 per acre area.

Edited by coup 1/13/2008 22:09

ksu845

Posted 1/13/2008 22:29 (#282682 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

NE Kansas

When changing the pH what is the desired range? If AMS makes it more acidic why not use something like white vinegar? You can get it in one gallon for little bit of nothing. Mix a tank and use the AMS and then test the pH with litmus paper. Once you have the pH needed, your next tank mix use vinegar and keep adding vinegar until it reaches the same pH as an AMS mixed tank. Anyone think this would work?

Jon S

Posted 1/13/2008 22:32 (#282684 - in reply to #282682)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Wouldn't Vinegar have some serious phyto issues with desireable plants. I think I recall reading somewhere that organic farmers use it as a pesticide.

GTD

Posted 1/13/2008 22:48 (#282701 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Effingham, IL

Dr. Bryan Young at Southern Illinois University has done by far the most research on herbicide adjuvants that I am aware. Bottom line is that not all AMS replacement products are the same and dry AMS consistantly performs the best.

More information can be found here: http://www.herbicide-adjuvants.com/adjprod-type.htm or Google "Bryan Young AMS study".

NEMOScott

Posted 1/13/2008 23:08 (#282721 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Callao, Missouri

Bought my dry spray grade ams last week for 2008 season. Like everything else, I figured that the price of it would soon be heading up.

I put my AMS into the bulk water tank, so I haven't had the plugging problem that some mention. I do wonder if it will settle out, but the bulk tank pulls from the bottom anyway.

Spray grade AMS= about $.38/lb. Fertilizer grade= about $.21/lb. This year I'm going to dump a couple of five gallon buckets of fertilizer grade into my bulk water tank....and see what happens.

All that other stuff just seems too high to me. I've used Request, just another thing to measure out for me. With the AMS in the bulk water, that's one less thing to carry.

Do what works best for you. Of course, that will take some experimenting with the things that don't work so good!

Scott

sparrell

Posted 1/13/2008 23:23 (#282729 - in reply to #282721)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

How do you mix it in the bulk tank?

How well do you think a 50-75 gal livestock tank would work to mix the AMS into the water? I was thinking about getting a stock tank and a little 110v pump like the ones used to circulate the water in little man-made landscaping ponds in peoples yards. I would fill the tank with water, pour in a bag of dry AMS and let the little pump circulate for a few hours. Then I would come with my sprayer and suck up the water/ams mix out of the stock tank with the sprayers quickfill. Sounds like alot of dinking around but for how much I'd save each sprayer tank full, it might be worth it. Would it work?

NEMOScott

Posted 1/14/2008 19:18 (#283236 - in reply to #282729)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Callao, Missouri

I have an 1100 gallon round plastic tank on my spray tender trailer. I just dump in however much dry AMS into the tank when I'm filling it. Then it bounces around until it gets pulled into the sprayer.

I would suppose that some sort of mixing tank would be better, but it sounds like a lot of work to me.

To clarify-- We do not have very hard water. In fact, my father often questions whether it is worth it to add anything to the tank. I just do it because of herd instinct.

Scott

coup

Posted 1/13/2008 23:24 (#282731 - in reply to #282721)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

USA

Scott,
Is that $.38 per lb for spray grade AMS correct? If it is your supplier didn't treat you very well. You ought to be able to buy spray grade AMS in the price range of what you are paying for the fertilizer grade stuff.

NEMOScott

Posted 1/14/2008 19:22 (#283241 - in reply to #282731)
Subject: Ya, I figured you would tell me that.

Callao, Missouri

In fact, as I was writing the check, I thought "I bet coup will let me know whether this is a good price or not."

I don't have the ticket in front of me. I do have in my checkbook register a total of $953.75. I think this was for 55gl of Atrazine in 2.5gl jugs and 1000lb of AMS. So how does that figure out, coup? Too high? What could you sell it to me for? I'm about 15miles west of Macon. Feel free to e-mail me.

Thanks

Scott

coup

Posted 1/14/2008 23:41 (#283511 - in reply to #283241)
Subject: RE: Ya, I figured you would tell me that.

USA

Scott,

Your supplier sold you Atrazine cheaper than what I could have sold it to you far. My total for the two would be $757.50. My AMS price is $.18 per lb. Guess I was shocked at a AMS price that high. Looks to me like they are making more money selling a bag of AMS than most guys make selling a bag of seed.

Edited by coup 1/14/2008 23:42

NEMOScott

Posted 1/15/2008 09:16 (#283639 - in reply to #283511)
Subject: How much can you get me?

Callao, Missouri

Give me a call, or email me.
(660) 384-3468
[email protected]

Jmark71

Posted 1/15/2008 09:19 (#283644 - in reply to #282721)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Kentucky

Just bought dry spray grade AMS for $.18 per pound. Use about 2 # per acre which equals $.36 per acre. Pretty inexpensive for the performance. I'm not wild about 51# bags and chunks sometimes, but I've always been able to put it through the inductor and never had a problem keeping it in suspension or having it plug nozzles. I don't use nozzles screens though -- only boom screens. I do have a self cleaning filter and a suction line filter, but have never had these plug either.

Claymore

Posted 1/13/2008 23:49 (#282743 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

Glad to see you are reading the label. Chem labels almost never steer you wrong. Chem labels always trump what a neighbor or chem rep says. As far as spraying your own glyphosate, here are some general rules.

1. Nothing beats AMS as a glyphosate adjuvant.
2. Less water is better. 2-3 gpa is best, but 5 gpa is more practical because of lower drift potential. Use more than 5 gpa only if the tank mix partner requires it.
3. Use a coarse spray. Switch to a medium spray only if weeds are very small (less than 1/4" across).

Dry AMS has never plugged my sprayer, but it has plugged others, it depends on the agitation, and how fast it is dumped in the tank, and also water temperature. I have had bags of AMS that were out in the weather with very large solid chunks, and dumped it in the sprayer with no problem (make sure the water is warm). It doesn't matter when the AMS is added to the tank, because the activity of the AMS is on the leaf, when the spray droplet is drying. Extra surfactant may help when using lower rates of glyphosate, or when using the new, more concentrated formulations.

Edited by Claymore 1/13/2008 23:59

JimmyP

Posted 1/14/2008 04:29 (#282786 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: True AMS works best

Lancaster, OH

True AMS (17# dry or 5 gal liquid) does work best across conditions.

Substitutes (few pints or quarts) simply don't do the job as consistently.

I've been involved in testing many, been forced to accept some that didn't work but the true AMS is the best. As for formulating it in, believe me when I tell you, if it could be done and give you the handling, it would.

loran

Posted 1/14/2008 07:43 (#282810 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: Liquid nitrogen.............

West Union, IOWA FLOLO Farm 52175

I've been using liquid 28-32% the last 2 years and I'm happy. I have an empty tote on the trailer sitting next to RUP so all I have to do is turn the valve, run it in the inductor(2 " hose goes pretty fast 8) then do the same for RUP. Works pretty slick and doesn't take much time. Before that I was using something like liquid ams supreme and the only thing I feel like I'd might need to add sometimes would be is driftguard--loran

Dave Cen.Ia

Posted 1/14/2008 09:40 (#282897 - in reply to #282810)
Subject: RE: Liquid nitrogen.............

Nevada, Iowa

Loran:

We used to use 28% all of the time in the old basagran or galaxy days. Then we got away from it for some reason, I guess for me at that time it was easier to load bags than liquid. It seems like we used a fairly high volume of 28% as compared to AMS. Out of curiosity, what rates do you use with glyph? Thanks

Anyone remember when AMS looked just a little bit better than rock salt? Some of the first stuff I used came in a paper bag and was dirty looking enough that I was afraid to pour it in the sprayer.

Edited by Dave Cen.Ia 1/14/2008 14:06

loran

Posted 1/14/2008 14:04 (#283088 - in reply to #282897)
Subject: A couple of GLUGS 8)

West Union, IOWA FLOLO Farm 52175

If I forget to open the vent on top d8D

Dave, I shoot for 1qt per acre but error on the high side.

I was warned about leaf burn, but I figure as long as you don't see Leafburn it's kinda like foliar feeding--loran

PS. I use liquid N on the planter and till this yr sidressed liquid,so I just make sure the tote gets filled during that time and its no extra hassle

Edited by loran 1/14/2008 14:06

JimmyP

Posted 1/14/2008 16:12 (#283145 - in reply to #283088)
Subject: Caution

Lancaster, OH

If you have water that is 29 grains or harder, you won't get benefit out of the liquid N that you will out of AMS. The sulfate part of the equation is what is doing the lions share of the work here tieing up especially calcium and magnesium but some iron. The ammonium part seems to only provide a little aid in absorption. In essence, the AMS gives you a higher effective rate of glyphosate by minimizing that part that is tied up with these minerals.

deereman

Posted 1/14/2008 09:09 (#282873 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: RE: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

NE SD

I've been using a liquid product called Bronc Max for 2 yrs. Have not noticed it working any different than dry ams. I just paid for next yrs supply at 16.50/gal. I use 1qt/100 gallons water. Works great and much much easier than the bags.
Jerry

AR Plowboy

Posted 1/14/2008 09:43 (#282900 - in reply to #282455)
Subject: Price for 51 lb bag of spraygrade AMS

East Central Arkansas

I have been paying around $8 a bag for a 51 lb bag of spraygrade AMS in years past. Does anyone have a price for yet this year?

HFR

Posted 1/14/2008 11:45 (#282987 - in reply to #282900)
Subject: RE: Price for 51 lb bag of spraygrade AMS

Central Minnesota

10.00 to 11.00 bucks per 51 pounder by 1/5/2008 depending where purchased

cosperj

Posted 1/25/2008 00:54 (#292457 - in reply to #282987)
Subject: Re: Dry AMS vs liquid AMS vs AMS substitues

West Texas near Lubbock

My water is extremely hard well water. I purchased a high capacity Kinetico two tank water softener that will produce an unlimited amount of soft water at a 20 gal per minute flow rate. I let the nurse tank fill while a load is being sprayed. I quit using dry ams after I started using the water softener.
If you need to reduce the water ph, use muratic acid purchased by the gal from a building supply. This is a very effective way to lower the ph, similar to the way that you would treat swimming pool water. I also add a large jug of dawn diswashing soap per 800 gal sprayer load. All this seems to help, but it could just be my imigination.

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